IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #6

[sarx]

Hi Sarx-
Assuming no decomposition and no rain, how long would an individual's scent generally be detectable by dogs on a non-porous object, such as a bike?
Thanks!!!

Lot of other factors here like temperature, humidity, wind, sun, etc, how long were they touching the object, bike seat? What the dogs are trained to scent off of and pick up scent on?

 

[JaimeInLA]

It was in the first link I posted about 2 threads ago. Unfortunately, that article is no longer available.

I'm finding out the hard way that each time you go back to an article, it has been edited, updated and completely changes from the first time you post the url. This sucks because it makes it impossible to keep a clean link trail.

Ok, thanks.

I'm just trying to get the story straight on this guy. He put himself at the scene of a crime, and then went BACK to the scene of that crime on Monday. As you all know, that is always considered suspicious. I'm not saying that he should be a suspect or that I think he did it. I just can't seem to get a straight answer on when he first talked to police. (Conflicting media reports)

 

[GrainneDhu]

Hi Sarx-
Assuming no decomposition and no rain, how long would an individual's scent generally be detectable by dogs on a non-porous object, such as a bike?
Thanks!!!

I'm not sarx but I'd like to point out that bike saddles and handle bar grips are often plastic or leather, both of which are porous and hold scent tenaciously.

 

[MotherOcean]

It was reported both that the cyclist who saw the girls' bikes reported the sighting to the PD and also approached officers at the lake. There is a picture of him talking with the officers at the lake. My question is when did he go to the PD to report it? After he talked with officers at the lake during the search? And what was he doing there for 3-4 hours that day?

"As the group searched, a bicyclist stopped the officers to say he saw the two kids bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.

Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo said he rides the trail often.

“I saw the bikes laying on the path and had to swerve to miss them,” Gamerdinger said. He then went to the Evansdale Police Department to report the sighting."

Read More: http://wcfcourier.com/news/local/au...217-11e1-aec0-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz21TZfAxVj

Now I am thoroughly confused about the biker. Could it be that he didn't actually go to the Evansdale PD, as in going to the brick and mortar, but that whoever wrote the news article is referring to the actual officers as the EPD?? Otherwise, I have no clue. I thought he had gone home, heard about the girls, and then physically went to the PD (building/location/facility) and reported his sighting. Maybe he went to the lake and spoke to LE there and the article is calling that "went to the Evansdale Police Department."

 

[oceanblueeyes]

She says she passed - but the FBI lady refused to comment.

BBM

That doesnt mean anything to me though Jules.

LE/FBI never comments on any polygraph results given.

imo

 

[hollyblue]

I just came home. When I left at 9 am, it was pleasantly warm but muggy.

When I got home again at 1:00 pm, it was dry and hot, hot, hot (96 F). The hottest part of the day in Iowa is usually around 3 pm.

If LE is still checking the landfill, I salute them. The heat out there would make it almost unbearable.

RSBM/BBM

I was thinking about this last night and wondering if they were still searching there. We haven't heard anything at the pressers about it, so I tend to think not. May be a good ? to be asked by the reporters today. If they are not, then to me, that points to more verificaton they have something pretty solid on the girls still being alive. imo

 

[sarx]

I'm not sarx but I'd like to point out that bike saddles and handle bar grips are often plastic or leather, both of which are porous and hold scent tenaciously.

yeppers.

 

[vasportsmom]

Sarx-
If this trail is a place that these girls ride their bikes and play on a daily basis, would their scent already be all over the place, even if they weren't there THAT day?

(I'm not saying that I don't think they were there that day...but what if....)

Going off of this, I think it has been said before that the dogs follow the newest scent trail but if the girls weren't there that Friday but were on say Thursday the dogs would follow that trail right? With LE having no way of knowing that the trail was old? However, we know they rode their bikes that day and their scent should have been strong on them so would the dogs have tracked the scent from the bikes back to where it had been removed from a vehicle if the girls weren't the ones to leave them on the trail?

Sorry for all the questions but so glad to see you on this thread!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MotherOcean]

Hi all. Not sure that my remote message made it on here yesterday, so I'll try again. I've been off the grid for a week but came back to see there were some pm's regarding this case and questions about what the dogs did. If there are still questions I'd be happy to try and answer.

Hi, Sarx! I have a question. It is probably a dumb question but something I've wondered about.

Could the dogs pick up the girls scent over an area that the girls did not actually touch but were carried through? If the perp. or perps. picked the girls up where the bikes were found and carried them to the wooded area would the dogs be able to pick their scent up as far as the wooded area?

Thank you.

 

[katydid23]

Now I am thoroughly confused about the biker. Could it be that he didn't actually go to the Evansdale PD, as in going to the brick and mortar, but that whoever wrote the news article is referring to the actual officers as the EPD?? Otherwise, I have no clue. I thought he had gone home, heard about the girls, and then physically went to the PD (building/location/facility) and reported his sighting. Maybe he went to the lake and spoke to LE there and the article is calling that "went to the Evansdale Police Department."

It sounds to me, from the article, that he did both. And it kind of makes sense to me as well. First, he hears about the girls being missing. So he goes back to the lake because he knows there will be cops there searching and he wanted to say what he remembered about the bikes. So he tells the searchers about what he saw earlier, and they probably asked him to go to the station and report everything to the investigators. imo

 

[Marilynilpa]

I think maybe we all just assumed Ted Gamerdinger reported the bike sighting on Friday because we read it on FB initially by the man's daughter saying as soon as he heard the girls were missing he reported it. He would have heard they were missing before Monday though right? Maybe we need to look back at previous threads and see which day we first started talking about this.

http://globegazette.com/news/iowa/r...11e1-b097-001a4bcf887a.html?comment_form=true

'As the group searched, a bicyclist stopped the officers to say he saw the two kids bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.

Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo said he rides the trail often.

“I saw the bikes laying on the path and had to swerve to miss them,” Gamerdinger said. He then went to the Evansdale Police Department to report the sighting.'

 

[Patty G]

Is there a press conference today?

 

[nikb]

<snipped for space>
&#8220;I saw the bikes laying on the path and had to swerve to miss them,&#8221; Gamerdinger said. He then went to the Evansdale Police Department to report the sighting."

This might be a really dumb question but I'll ask it anyway. Is it normal in this town for people to actually GO TO the police department to report things? I read earlier that someone went there to report the girls missing and then I've also read recently (as you did above) that the cyclist went there. I thought before that "went to" meant more like "called" but it's been worded so specifically several times that it got me wondering.

The point of asking is wouldn't tbe police likely have surveillance cameras that could help better pinpoint when the various people went there? It also makes it stranger that the cyclist reported it sometime way after the fact (if that's accurate, I'm still confused on the timeline). If he hung around for hours to go report it to police that seems really odd. If he went home, heard about the missing girls, and came back to report it much later in the day, maybe it's less strange. I know LE may've already checked that and just aren't releasing it.
------
Edited to add I really don't think the cyclist had anything to do with it (could be wrong obviously, but gut feeling says he didn't). I'm thinking more about the inconsistencies in the timeline.

 

[gregjrichards]

Hi is there a press conference at 4pm today?

 

[princesspjs]

Going off of this, I think it has been said before that the dogs follow the newest scent trail but if the girls weren't there that Friday but were on say Thursday the dogs would follow that trail right? With LE having no way of knowing that the trail was old? However, we know they rode their bikes that day and their scent should have been strong on them so would the dogs have tracked the scent from the bikes back to where it had been removed from a vehicle if the girls weren't the ones to leave them on the trail?

Sorry for all the questions but so glad to see you on this thread!


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Exactly! It's not like Rover can look up and tell his handler which day the scent is from. It's just the "newest". Doesn't that mean it could be from last Tuesday but the dog can't tell the handler that.

Right?

 

[sarx]

Sarx-
If this trail is a place that these girls ride their bikes and play on a daily basis, would their scent already be all over the place, even if they weren't there THAT day?

(I'm not saying that I don't think they were there that day...but what if....)

Working an area where trail upon trail is laid over each other day after day (like from the front door of the house) always makes things more difficult yes. Properly trained dogs are trained for this, but it is still harder than say where they went to a new park, got out of the car and headed into the woods (our dream, lol). The dogs can't tell us what day the subject was there, only hopefully which way they went the last time they went through there.

 

[Truman]

I think maybe we all just assumed Ted Gamerdinger reported the bike sighting on Friday because we read it on FB initially by the man's daughter saying as soon as he heard the girls were missing he reported it. He would have heard they were missing before Monday though right? Maybe we need to look back at previous threads and see which day we first started talking about this.

Please feel free to correct me, but the very first post I can find about Ted G the cyclist/biker was on Sunday, 7/14 at 10:45 pm. In thread 1, #130 Wondergirl said:
"According to a poster on the Facebook Group, the girls bikes were seen on the Gilbertville to Meyers Trail just prior to 12:27 pm on Friday, the biker did not see or hear the girls at that time, the tip was called in to LE, fwiw."

Point being it appears that he DID report it before Monday.

 

[sarx]

Going off of this, I think it has been said before that the dogs follow the newest scent trail but if the girls weren't there that Friday but were on say Thursday the dogs would follow that trail right? With LE having no way of knowing that the trail was old? However, we know they rode their bikes that day and their scent should have been strong on them so would the dogs have tracked the scent from the bikes back to where it had been removed from a vehicle if the girls weren't the ones to leave them on the trail?

Sorry for all the questions but so glad to see you on this thread!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, if the girls were on the bikes that day then there should be a trail there that is fresher than the rest and IN THEORY, if they then walked out, then that trail will actually be thicker if you will than the one from the bicycle (speed, etc). Now if they were carried out that would change things too.

 

[Jules71]

http://globegazette.com/news/iowa/r...11e1-b097-001a4bcf887a.html?comment_form=true

'As the group searched, a bicyclist stopped the officers to say he saw the two kids bikes on the trail at about 12:20 p.m., but no sign of the children.

Ted Gamerdinger of Waterloo said he rides the trail often.

“I saw the bikes laying on the path and had to swerve to miss them,” Gamerdinger said. He then went to the Evansdale Police Department to report the sighting.'

I already posted that article. Which day did he go to the PD to report it? Which day did he approach officers at the lake? IMO those are two separate events (reporting it at the police dept and reporting it to officers at the lake). We are trying to determine which day he did those two things.

 

[sarx]

Hi, Sarx! I have a question. It is probably a dumb question but something I've wondered about.

Could the dogs pick up the girls scent over an area that the girls did not actually touch but were carried through? If the perp. or perps. picked the girls up where the bikes were found and carried them to the wooded area would the dogs be able to pick their scent up as far as the wooded area?

Thank you.

Not a dumb question at all, actually a very good one.
Scent particles are being shed constantly and will be falling off of a person regardless of whether they are walking, cycling, driving or being carried. How they land and in what concentration are the variables and can have a significant impact on how well the dog can follow them.
If a dog has trained for these variables and is an above average working dog and the handler is good, the dog should still be able to follow it AND more importantly probably is that the handler should be able to recognize a difference in the dogs behavior and how they are working, thus giving some indication as to what was going on.