IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #8

[iamnotagolem]

The linked 2009 cbc article was from well before the trial. During trial: "In court, McDonald (the victim's mother) admitted she had been to McClintic's (one of the murderers) house twice prior to the kidnapping — once to buy OxyContin from the young woman's mother, Carol, and the second time to discuss the possibility of breeding their dogs." link

There was no connection between the kidnapping/murder and the mother's drug use. There was no relationship between the murderers and the victim's mother, and there was no relationship between the murderers and the victim until the time of the murder.

Similarly, in this case, we have parents that use meth and missing children. Similarly, it seems that many people are asking the same questions: whether that drug use caused the children to go missing. In the case of Victoria Stafford, that drug use had nothing to do with the kidnapping. There was no prior relationship between the mother and the kidnappers.

I think the point we are trying to make is that it is possible that the kidnappers are connected to the family, whether it be through drug use, someone they know from church, or someone from the grocery store, the likelihood of the kidnappers being connected to the family is very high, statistically speaking.

 

[elepher50]

Ok this will probably get removed but it was a combo of prescription drugs, suicide attempt, her parent's house which may be why they were found so quick.

Victoria Stafford anyone.

Sorry not following - what about Victoria Stafford. The suicide information is old news.

 

[otto]

Tori (Victoria) Stafford's mother (Tara McDonald) was however acquainted with Tori's abductor, Terri-Lynne McClintic, although *claims* her daughter never met McClintic. The interaction of the two drug users clearly put Tori on the radar of the underbelly of society... imo. Possibly the same sort of risky situation for Elizabeth & Lyric?

Toronto Star article: http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1142826--tori-stafford-murder-trial-mother-s-shortcomings

It's sad to see how many people still believe that Victoria Stafford's mother had a relationship with one of her daughter's murderers. It was all rumor and speculation that started while Victoria was missing. Victoria's mother lived under that shadow until trial, but those rumors were put to rest during trial. Because the mother used drugs, many people suspected that she was involved in her daughter's disappearance. The murderers used the same drugs, but drugs were not the reason Victoria was murdered and Victoria was not a victim because of anything related to her mother. She was a random child walking home from school who was lured with the promise of seeing a dog.

 

[CHERIE.T]

http://www.kwwl.com/story/19115767/elizabeth-collins-softball-team-honors-missing-cousins

snipped:

The last time the girls and coaches saw Elizabeth was on the same field, the night before she and Lyric went missing.
"We had just been with her until 9:00 Thursday night. So to find out she was gone that fast, it was hard," said assistant coach Sarah Lang.

Thinking........were the missing girls allowed to go the field unsupervised too? :moo:

 

[LisaB]

Why was she looking for work at that Casey's when she has a job at the other Casey's? Hmm closer to where the kids are and the receipts are for whom has been there purchasing food etc as in my other post?

I understood this to mean she had inquired about a job at the first Casey's, and was told they did not have openings, but the other one did. She'd only had the job a short time IIRC.

For shopping purposes, she'd have probably used the one nearer to her home.

 

[LisaB]

yeah...I was guessing that credit card receipts were different, and that they'd have had access to them already, but cash receipts wouldn't be traceable to any person.

However, possibly that was just the term the clerk used in regards to all purchases.

If they have time stamped receipts, they can cross reference with surveillance video.

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

Ollipop has great ideas. LE should talk and LISTEN to Ollipop, IMO.

And I always respect and appreciate your input on all cases, Pensfan. Just wanted to let you know.

 

[MotherOcean]

I am trying to find exactly when it was 'corrected' but at some point they said the 11:30 time was off, and the girls left much later than that. I have not found that link yet though. [ something about the video time stamp showed grandma she was off on her 11:30 time.]

ETA: Here is where the 11:30 time comes in. But recently it was begun to be reported that they left the house later than that.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1207/16/ijvm.01.html

JVM show:july 16th, 2012

OKAY________HERE IS WHERE IT SWITCHES FOR SOME REASON:

The video also matches the police timeline. Investigators say the girls left the home to ride their bikes shortly after noon July 13. The camera's clock shows it was 12:11 p.m. when they rode by.

I had seen those articles but it didn't register as a change in the timeline in my mind. I thought this:

The video also matches the police timeline. Investigators say the girls left the home to ride their bikes shortly after noon July 13. The camera's clock shows it was 12:11 p.m. when they rode by.

was just a reference to them leaving the area of the home, where WC saw them riding when she checked on them. I didn't take it to mean a change in when they left the actual home when they first headed out for the ride.

Thanks!

 

[iamnotagolem]

My parents were drug dealers in the 80's when I was a teenager.
Not once did they ever try to involve me or any of my sisters in their "business".
If anything, they tried to hide it from us.

I think that just goes to show that every drug addict/dealer is different. It is hard to put people who are on drugs all into one basket.

 

[IAM]

The only thing I can think of is he is planning on leaving the country and needs more time to get stuff together? And no that is not my theory or even what I think is happening, I just don't know why else he'd want to postpone it.

This also makes sense to me. I would like to know who all were in that hotel room the night the FBI was said to come banging on door. Tammy placed herself their in one interview. She said "WE" were just trying to get some rest because it had been 6 days and we needed to get away, just the family and come together to rest (or something similar). And, I do understand how they could be exhausted. But, I also could see how gathering in a place away from any of their homes might be a good place to discuss any further plans. It was right after this night that LE put Dan under supervised surveillance. And it was the very next day that LE was interested in raw news video of Misti and Wylma and there was also mention of a supeanea of a nearby ATM. Money would be needed for Dan to flee.

 

[elepher50]

These families are victims of this crime, at this time, as far as WS is concerned (at least that's my understanding).

RSBM: WS is a victim friendly forum and we have been reminded of that several times.

The families of the two girls who are missing (Elizabeth and Lyric) are victims. No suspects or POIs have been named by LE.

Thanks for all the local information that you provide and the hours you have put into taking pictures so we can all understand the area much better.

 

[Sunlight]

OKAY________HERE IS WHERE IT SWITCHES FOR SOME REASON:

The video also matches the police timeline. Investigators say the girls left the home to ride their bikes shortly after noon July 13. The camera's clock shows it was 12:11 p.m. when they rode by.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/missing-io...deo-elizabeth-collins-lyric/story?id=16850676

==============================================

So for some reason, on july 25th, investigators changed the timeline from 11:30 to sometime after noon. WHY did they do that after the aunt and the grandma were both so specific about the time the girls first left to go riding?

I mean, if the girls first left at noon, and grandma saw them at 12:15, then why the concern at 12:30? She began driving around looking for them 15 minutes after she last saw them?

And why did they say the girls left at 11:30 initially? Wouldn't that be an important detail to have correct in a missing child's case?

The estimation of their time of departure has fluctuated, so since they were seen on video at 12:11 and 12:15 (or thereabouts taking into consideration faulty camera time marks), they (LE) are going by that...the idea that they started looking for them when they didn't respond to being called in, was probably good judgment on the family's part...I doubt they thought there was something so serious as an abduction at that time..but did try to keep them within range; especially, since Gma was supposed to leave with Lyric to go home at 1:30 and meet up with Tammy. She ended up leaving anyway, which I thought was interesting...what was so important that you would leave kids you are sitting who are nowhere to be seen. Just bad choices...all around. So sad. MOO

 

[Thinkzerz]

Descriptions and pictures of the bikes are so important when we are talking about missing children. We still don't even know exactly what the girls were wearing...when they went missing.

One of the children had a mountain bike according to Aunt TB
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


TAMMY BROUSSEAU, AUNT OF MISSING GIRLS: That is correct. I know Dan and I know Dylan (ph) very well. Dan does not have a job right now. He is staying with his mother, Vickie (ph), in Waterloo. He doesn`t even have a car. He knew absolutely nothing about this.

When Mom -- I had met Mom at her house because we had had some plans. She had originally left. When Misty showed up to pick up Lyric, and Mom said, you know, The girls have been off and it`s been a little bit too long, but you know, you guys need to go find your kids, Tammy and I have some other things that we`re doing, and Tammy`s at the house.

So Mom came and got me. We got a phone call back from Drew (ph), Elizabeth`s father, saying, You guys need to get back here and help. So me and Mom jumped in the car, and right away we came back. Kelly -- we picked up Kelly, the 12-year-old son, and we started going to all these places that they`d already checked.

I said immediately to my mom, I said, Take me to Meyers Lake, take me to Meyers Lake. This is approximately a quarter to 2:00 when I asked -- or a quarter to 3:00 when I asked Mom to take me to Meyers Lake.
We pulled into Meyers Lake, right about where Jim and I are standing. And I got up and just jumped out and started asking random people, Have you seen two little girls, one on a mountain bike, you know, gave the complete descriptions of them. And a man -- they have his name. I don`t know who he is. He said to me, Yes, I seen two little girls going west on the bike trail.

And as you can see, it`s a small lake. It`s not a huge lake. So the bike trail wraps around and then comes back east, and that`s where the bikes were, in fact, found.

So when Misty had -- when they`d found the bikes and called us and told us, Misty was standing here with us, Misty immediately called Dan and Dan called his mother. She was at work. She took work off, and she hurried up and picked Dan and Dylan up and came down here and met us to start the search and all of that for the kids, yes.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/ng.html

I wonder what time this guy saw the girls?

 

[elepher50]

It's sad to see how many people still believe that Victoria Stafford's mother had a relationship with one of her daughter's murderers. It was all rumor and speculation that started while Victoria was missing. Victoria's mother lived under that shadow until trial, but those rumors were put to rest during trial. Because the mother used drugs, many people suspected that she was involved in her daughter's disappearance. The murderers used the same drugs, but drugs were not the reason Victoria was murdered and Victoria was not a victim because of anything related to her mother. She was a random child walking home from school who was lured with the promise of seeing a dog.

Me too Otto. It is something that Tara will never be able to shake as long as she lives. Tara was a victim in the same manner as was Rodney, Daryn and Victoria herself. The whole family was victimized by two very evil people.

 

[katydid23]

I had seen those articles but it didn't register as a change in the timeline in my mind. I thought this:

The video also matches the police timeline. Investigators say the girls left the home to ride their bikes shortly after noon July 13. The camera's clock shows it was 12:11 p.m. when they rode by.

was just a reference to them leaving the area of the home, where WC saw them riding when she checked on them. I didn't take it to mean a change in when they left the actual home when they first headed out for the ride.

Thanks!

well, if they left originally at 11:30 am, where were they until 12:15?

Nobody has answered that and I think it is very important to know.

Did they ride to the lake earlier and meet up with a paddle boater?

Did they visit someone's home?

Did they stop at Casey's for a snack?

I wish I knew where they were from 11:30 until 12:15.

 

[Sunlight]

Tammy said the guy she met said he saw them about 2:30. MOO

 

[Pensfan]

If they have time stamped receipts, they can cross reference with surveillance video.

Please forgive my ignorance. What does "cash receipt" mean? Does this mean all receipts from the store including credit card receipts which have names? Does "cash receipt" only mean receipts where someone paid cash?

 

[katydid23]

The estimation of their time of departure has fluctuated, so since they were seen on video at 12:11 and 12:15 (or thereabouts taking into consideration faulty camera time marks), they (LE) are going by that...the idea that they started looking for them when they didn't respond to being called in, was probably good judgment on the family's part...I doubt they thought there was something so serious as an abduction at that time..but did try to keep them within range; especially, since Gma was supposed to leave with Lyric to go home at 1:30 and meet up with Tammy. She ended up leaving anyway, which I thought was interesting...what was so important that you would leave kids you are sitting who are nowhere to be seen. Just bad choices...all around. So sad. MOO

I don't know. I mean if they had just left the house a little after noon, and were seen right there in the parking lot at 12:15, then why drive around for an hour and search for them just 15 minutes later? It seems odd.

If they had left at 11:30, and were seen only once, then I can easily understand the family driving around and mobilizing on a search. But if they left at 12:15, were seen at the parking lot across the field, but then 15 minutes later, everyone is so concerned? It seems weird, imo.

 

[otto]

You seem to be directly contradicting yourself here?

Not at all. There was no relationship between the murderers and the victim's mother. The confessed murderer has stated that the victim was randomly chosen because they wanted to kidnap a child and Victoria was walking home from school alone. Victoria was lured by strangers with the promise of seeing a dog.

It's quite possible that the kidnapper(s) in this case use meth, or that they have seen the victim's parents in the small town, but the girls were most likely taken because the kidnapper wants little girls.

 

[Jules71]

This also makes sense to me. I would like to know who all were in that hotel room the night the FBI was said to come banging on door. Tammy placed herself their in one interview. She said "WE" were just trying to get some rest because it had been 6 days and we needed to get away, just the family and come together to rest (or something similar). And, I do understand how they could be exhausted. But, I also could see how gathering in a place away from any of their homes might be a good place to discuss any further plans. It was right after this night that LE put Dan under supervised surveillance. And it was the very next day that LE was interested in raw news video of Misti and Wylma and there was also mention of a supeanea of a nearby ATM. Money would be needed for Dan to flee.

Good point! And they also modified the no contact order around this time to allow Dan and Misty to be together concerning their missing daughter in the presence of LE. What night was this - Wed or Thurs? There was also the presser where the reporter said something like "can you comment on Misty Morrissey's cell phone and car being towed yesterday". So did the FBI bang on the motel door - take them for 3 hour questioning and seize her car that same night?