IA IA - Johnny Gosch, 12, W Des Moines, 5 Sept 1982 - What happened? - #3

[christine2448]

Forgive me for jumping in....and if this has been discussed before....this caught my attention because if my memory serves me right (and it usually doesn't) Paul Bishop lived in Fairfax at sometime..look at this case that is just reopening:

FBI To Reopen Case of Missing Fairfax Boys

I am not even sure this is the same Fairfax or the timeline of these events matching this case.

 

[gidget641]

Dr. Doogie,

Thanks for sharing what insight that you can.

I know this has probably been addressed before, (probably even by me) and I apologize for sounding like a broken record.

But can you tell me Is johnny's father in anyway connected to the JG foundation?

His lack of a public presence still bugs me. I just can't imagine a father not searching for his child. (even if he can't get along with the mother)

 

[Dr. Doogie]

No, Leonard Gosch is not involved in the search for Johnny - at least not with the JG Foundation. He may be looking on his own, but this is unknown.

His absence has caused some to question if he may have had some involvement with Johnny's abduction. There has been evidence uncovered involving some unsavory financial dealings involving him (post-abduction) and some have speculated that he may have accrued debts to people who demanded Johnny as payment. Again, this is just speculation by some and is not supported by the JG Foundation. My observation is that Noreen seems open to investigating any possible links between the abduction and Leonard, but compelling evidence has yet to be found.

There is the story of how Leonard was bringing a woman with him to various events involved with the investigations and introducing her as Noreen, when she was not Noreen at all. Also, Leonard is claimed to have sabotaged a police stakeout at a farmhouse that was allegedly used to hold Johnny at one point. If true, these stories do indicate a less than helpful track record of Leonard's participation in the search and could explain why his presence is not missed.

One recent poster on a different site has claimed that Leonard actually appeared in a child film created in the 1970's. This film is among a series of films created prior to the law making the production or possesion of these films illegal (yes, there was a time when no laws existed banning such films). These films were created by a company that still exists and are well-known in child circles. An effort is being made to either confirm or deny this claim since it is so specific and should be easy to verify by LE with access to these films.

This poster has also made some rather sensational claims against various famous people in his same posts - none of which have been verified - so please remember: ONLY ONE PERSON IS MAKING THIS CLAIM AGAINST LEONARD AND THE POSTER'S TRUTHFULLNESS IS UNKNOWN. I personally make no claim of Leonard's involvement and, if forced to vote one way or another, I would say that these charges are false. They are shared here in the interest of full disclosure and if this violates the TOS, the MODS should edit as necessary with my blessing.

 

[gidget641]

Thanks for your input Dr. doogie

 

[youshouldveknown]

What about the officer in FL who claimed the photos were from a case he worked on in 1973 (I think)? Can anyone corroborate that?

 

[Mr. E]

What about the officer in FL who claimed the photos were from a case he worked on in 1973 (I think)? Can anyone corroborate that?

The detective himself can't. He has no proof or records.

 

[PattyCake]

maybe it's on here or I've posted the question before and forgot... i watched a true crime show a couple months back talking about a fairly 'young' guy that killed a boy or 2 within a couple hours drive of Johnny. And I believe one if not both boys were paper carriers. First, can someone enlighten me on the name of this guy and second why was he NOT a suspect in Johnny's case. 2 hour drive is nothing if you're scouting out a child to take. I believe this guy also received the dp and has since been executed.

To me when I looked on the computer after this show, it was very viable to consider this guy a major suspect.?

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I think you are referring to John Joubert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Joubert_(criminal)

 

[MnkeyBznes]

WOW! I grew up in Des Moines, Iowa and my son is just a few years younger than Johnny. I remember the case well as my son was also a paper boy for the DM Register. After Johnny then Eugene Martin was abducted. It was very scary thinking about my son out at 4:00 AM delivering papers alone. That is when I started driving him every day. I can't say if Mr. Gosch was involved in Johnny's disappearance or not but I can tell you it has always been Noreen from day 1 trying to find Johnny. She was always doing the interviews and lobbying for better laws etc. I rarely ever remember seeing Johnny's dad. I am so glad tho to see someone looking into this with fresh eyes. Good Luck and hope you can help find out what really happened to Johnny.

 

[PattyCake]

I think you are referring to John Joubert.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Joubert_(criminal)

Yes THANK YOU. So Dr Doogie, why was he never a serious contender in the potential option of Johnny's abduction / murder? Do you know? Just watching that program, it seems with what they said, he should have been considered better, no??

 

[Chicken Hawk]

This case is the one that led me to Websleuths. I have the Franklin Files book and still not sure what I think on it. I guess I'm a fence sitter.

I was so glad to see Dr. Doogie is working on it. I have followed the Anna Waters case and think he is very good at researching these things. I agree that if they can just find the person who actually took Johnny, then if it leads elsewhere good, if not at least that person would be stopped.

 

[mysterymax]

First, the entire situation seems like either a very badly written/imagined mystery novel--complete with stalking shadowy figures and a protagonist who drifts in and out of focus, or a psychotic paranoid delusion invented by the mother in order to explain the unexplainable. To buy the premise that Ms. Gosh is trying to sell (and has sold, with apparent success, to credulous thrill seekers and conspiracy theorists) is to capitulate to madness.

Second, suppose Johnny Gosch were indeed still alive. Why would he visit his mother under cover of night with dark, vague "warnings" and "information" that can't possibly be proved? Wouldn't it make more sense for him to show up at a newspaper office and spill his story? He would be swarmed by reporters and given protection.

Third, and finally, how has this child's disappearance exploded into so crazily imaginative (and therefore unbelievable) a fiction?

Could anyone out there please offer me some sane answers?

 

[mysterymax]

Again--what sort of person--in particular a person who hoped to maintain any intellectual credibility in a community populated with those of us who have never appeared on Springer--what sort of person would even IMAGINE that this could be true? These are the sorts of ravings that blow out the windows of mental homes.

Psychologially, the more disquieting the theory, the more it holds us in thrall. Just about a year ago I was at a 12 Step support group, my "home group", and a man wandered in from off the street to join us. When he opened his mouth to speak, the most dazzling paranoid incoherencies poured from his lips. After he spoke, he handed us round copies of a "drawing" that he had made of Jesus and the 2nd Coming or some such...it had been copied on a color copier at, I'm assuming, the crazy man's own expense. I remember how the men and women in my group (recovering alcholics, ordinary people with jobs and lives) just sat staring in shock, unable to take our eyes off the man and his "art." The same goes for the delusional paragraphs of the conspiracy theorists--why even bother to argue with them?

Anybody have a drawing you'd like to share of your reptilian alien abduction?

 

[Chicken Hawk]

I absolutely have no sane answers on this. It is definetly a wild roller coaster ride of a case. I don't even know what I believe anymore on it.

Like I said previously, I'm a fence sitter. Do I believe everything that has been offered on this? No, absolutely not. Do I think some of it is possible? Absolutely yes. Just not sure which part. I have no problem believing the government angle, but do have a problem with it being so far reaching into the government. And to be honest NOTHING would surprise me to end up being true on this case.

Your probably thinking my post is a waste of space....and you'd be right. This is just one of those cases that I would love to see solved just to end all the speculation.

I have the Franklin Files book and have read it. I've read all the posts here on this and I'm still confused.

 

[Chicken Hawk]

As far as the reptiles and area 51, I don't think that is in connection to this case. Please someone correct me if I'm wrong. I believe someone (not naming names) who was/is working on this case believed that. Which kind of shoots them in the foot. I mean who can believe in something like that, right? But I think that is seperate from the Johnny kidnapping.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

The Area 51 and the Reptiles nonsense was attributed to Ted Gunderson on a website selling his books. My current understanding is that these were not Gunderson's words though they were presented as his by the website. (I am yet to confirm this explaination with Ted himself, but several people who know Ted personally have said that he is NOT into the whole Alien enchilada.)

I also have a very hard time swallowing the idea that a large, highly connected, pedophile ring is operating within the framework of our government. That is why I keep my focus on the question of who took Johnny - the actual abductor or abductors. At this level, I believe that the JG Foundation has uncovered valuable info that may lead to unravelling the mystery. It may turn out that they are correct about the big conspiracy and that I was naive to not have believed, but I will let the evidence lead me to that conclusion. I have seen enough to say that SOMETHING beyond a simple kidnapping occured, but the other stuff is too fantastic for me to wrap my mind around.

 

[Chicken Hawk]

The Area 51 and the Reptiles nonsense was attributed to Ted Gunderson on a website selling his books. My current understanding is that these were not Gunderson's words though they were presented as his by the website. (I am yet to confirm this explaination with Ted himself, but several people who know Ted personally have said that he is NOT into the whole Alien enchilada.)

I also have a very hard time swallowing the idea that a large, highly connected, pedophile ring is operating within the framework of our government. That is why I keep my focus on the question of who took Johnny - the actual abductor or abductors. At this level, I believe that the JG Foundation has uncovered valuable info that may lead to unravelling the mystery. It may turn out that they are correct about the big conspiracy and that I was naive to not have believed, but I will let the evidence lead me to that conclusion. I have seen enough to say that SOMETHING beyond a simple kidnapping occured, but the other stuff is too fantastic for me to wrap my mind around.

Well said Dr. Doogie! This case gets me all tongue tied. It's a lot to take in and I've been reading on it for a few years. It's hard for me to believe everything about this, but on the other hand really nothing would surprise me. I guess time will tell.

 

[thefragile7393]

Dr. Doogie voices what I've thought for a while...this definitely goes beyond a simple kidnapping. There's just too much information surrounding this case for at least a few nuggets of truth to be in there somewhere. WHAT those nuggets are remains to be seen, but if Dr. Doogie is helping to focus on the main aspect--who took Johnny?--then that will start opening up doors as to the why, how, and maybe even open the whole story.

 

[Chicken Hawk]

Exactly fragile! If they can find out who took Johnny, then I think a lot of the other pieces will start falling into place. Parts of this does seem far fetched, but you just never know.

 

[Mr. E]

I don't know about reptiles, aliens, or Area 51, but I'm fairly certain real monsters, of the human variety, abducted Johnny for the purposes of photographing him, abusing him, and exploiting him. Noreen believes he is alive, and I think she may have information that is not public. I find it hard to believe that he's still alive, but I can imagine that after a few years of being held by this group, being forced to do things he's ashamed of (murder, maybe? like some survivors of ritual abuse say they are forced to do?), I don't suppose it is beyond the realm of believability that the adult Johnny has gone into hiding. Perhaps he is still committing crimes, which is why he stays underground. Perhaps, after being sexually abused for so long, he has become an abuser himself -- even more reason not to come forward.

I find it more likely that he was used and killed, but who am I to say? Maybe he really did escape, as his mother has said.