IA - Mollie Tibbetts, 20, Poweshiek County, 19 Jul 2018 *Arrest* #37

[bizzle2]

President Obama said that Martin could be his son. Which is pretty much declaring it wasn't self defense. That didn't influence the jury, so I doubt the
judge will be considering a gag order on the case, which is never popular in a free country like the USA.

That's quite a leap

 

[Al Hoffman]

I’m asking myself why he led investigators to the body. You know any motivation the guy has is self-serving, what leverage could possibly be used to wring that out of him? Iowa doesn’t have death penalty to bargain with, so what could it be?

You're thinking like an American, CR is not. In his cultural frame of reference it's better to cooperate with the Police when questioned, because you don't want to be taken into the back room where things will get MUCH worse. His defense team will likely use this to try and break his Miranda notification, or should. It is in my lifetime that such enhanced interogation tech was used in the country. There are still places in the world where the simbock and rubber hose (with or without your friend a phonebook - no external brusing) are still used. There is a certain wall in the old 1st district police station in New Orleans, where I could still go today and dig out a line of .38 cal slugs that start at the ceiling and end 'just' above where a man's head would be if tied to a chair.

In CR's cultural milieu, when you feel the long arm of LE on your shoulder you talk, or else! I think this puts his Miranda in jeopardy, as all of the best stuff they have on him could be lost as "fruit of the poisoned tree". Though, i think that the State would still have a strong case with the rest of the evidence there are currently developing.

 

[MyBelle]

Yes, but the defense could say he was there at the field when she was dumped but isn't the one who stabbed her. Or, someone told him were the body was or even showed him, but he didn't dump her there.

And, CR didn't confess to stabbing. The lawyer is sure to use that in his defense case.

Again, I think CR is the perp.

But the defense team will make the prosecutors prove every single detail. The defense lawyer is not going to say, "Well, CR lead LE to the body so guess he did it." No way. The defense lawyer will poke holes in everything and the prosecution is working right now to make sure no holes can be poked. The confession is not enough, imo.

I think it's worthwhile to think like the defense team - and to think like the prosecutors - now that we're over the shock of learning about what happened to Mollie. Otherwise, we'll have page after page of "he's such a monster!" Yeah he is, but we can take this discussion further now.

jmopinion

CR didn't confess to stabbing but he did confess to blocking his memory when he becomes enraged. That's an indication of consciousness of guilt that he did something so vile he has to block it out and the DA will use it as evidence. I think his defense is going to be psychiatric.

 

[Veracity]

What does the law say about senior politicians declaring people guilty at the time of arrest? Is that allowed? This strikes me as something that could completely violate the presumption of innocent until proven guilty.

For me it is a clear matter of separation of powers and what makes our Country so unique from most of the world. Used to teach CIVICS in school for decades. Do they anymore?

In this case, it is an IOWA STATE crime, so it is IA STATE Judiciary Branch with the lead Prosecutor from the STATE Attorney General's office. I was a bit surprised to see first chair is Assistant State Attorney Scott Dean Brown (he is the Director of the Area Prosecutions Division of the Attorney General's office). I thought the lead attorney would be the Poweshiek County Attorney, Bart Klaver. But as I thought about it, the Sheriff handed to case over to the State on or before the July 24th so that may have shifted who would be first and second chair? Anyone? And Mr. Klaver had only been in office since April of this year.

Klaver appointed to county attorney slot

Attorney - Poweshiek Attorney

"The County Attorney does

• prosecute individuals who violate the law as the chief law enforcement officer of the county.
• prosecute all state law violations that occur within Poweshiek County.
• review for prosecution all criminal law violations."

Area Prosecutions | Iowa Attorney General

"Area Prosecutions Division attorneys specialize in major felony prosecutions, including cases of murder, homicide, kidnapping, sexual abuse, robbery, theft and fraud, child abuse and exploitation, domestic violence, elder abuse, arson, white collar crimes, public corruption, and human trafficking."

 

[SharonNeedles]

makes total sense, I can see why that would not be favourable. My friend is military, so she is well trained.

Can you open carry in some states? I wasn't aware of that.

Firearm laws very by state. Iowa is one of the least restrictive. Open carry, although technically legal, is a weird grey area. There’s a lot of hunting in the rural areas and I don’t think twice about walking into the convenience store with a holstered handgun clearly visible. At the same time, if I were to strap my rifle across my back and walk the streets of a more metro area I’d surely be stopped and questioned about it.

 

[Gardenista]

I will eat my tinfoil bonnet if LE doesn't look into if CR ever worked at either Lyon's or Hansen's Farm Fresh Dairy.

Can you please elaborate on this?

 

[Inthedetails]

The thing is, people don't usually confess to things that make them look more guilty than the truth. It's so well established that the federal rules of evidence allow admissions against interest to be introduced to prove the truth because it's human nature that people are not going to lie to make themselves look worse. Let me find my FRE book and cite what they say.

(And I totally get that you are not suggesting it, but I think it would be hard for any lawyer to convincingly make the argument)

The Central Park Five confessed to a heinous crime they didn't commit. I think confessions that aren't true do indeed happen. But all the defense teams needs to say is that CR confessed to cover someone else or he confessed because he was scared or whatever. The defense will indeed say something about the confession, imo. They aren't going to lay down and do nothing in defense, whether we like it or not. CR didn't confess to murder. He "only" confessed to abducting Mollie and dumping her. There is wiggle room there for a defense team, imo.

AGAIN, I THINK CR IS THE PERP. I have to keep repeating that, knowing some WSers will think I'm defending him...but I AM NOT DEFENDING HIM.

I'm trying to anticipate what the defense team is working on, even if others here aren't that interested...I guess I get that. Not everyone has the same interests on cases.

jmo

 

[SharonNeedles]

You're thinking like an American, CR is not. In his cultural frame of reference it's better to cooperate with the Police when questioned, because you don't want to be taken into the back room where things will get MUCH worse. His defense team will likely use this to try and break his Miranda notification, or should. It is in my lifetime that such enhanced interogation tech was used in the country. There are still places in the world where the simbock and rubber hose (with or without your friend a phonebook - no external brusing) are still used. There is a certain wall in the old 1st district police station in New Orleans, where I could still go today and dig out a line of .38 cal slugs that start at the ceiling and end 'just' above where a man's head would be if tied to a chair.

In CR's cultural milieu, when you feel the long arm of LE on your shoulder you talk, or else! I think this puts his Miranda in jeopardy, as all of the best stuff they have on him could be lost as "fruit of the poisoned tree". Though, i think that the State would still have a strong case with the rest of the evidence there are currently developing.

That makes total sense. I hadn’t heard though, was there a lawyer present during interrogation?

 

[EaglesSpeical]

At the very least.

I think he was actually pulled over in it by LE when they took him in for questioning (believe that is what LE said in the earlier linked interview). So he probably admitted it since first question asked when pulled over typically is "license and registration, is this your car?" Especially in this situation where the car was potentially used in a crime. JMO

 

[TL4S]

Can you please elaborate on this?

TOS says probably not.

 

[MyBelle]

that is why I am hoping LE goes back to early July and looks at video along her jogging route- to see if he has been following her or was aware of her before the 18th jogging. He admitted he knew of her - I wonder how?

I wonder if his uncle's trailer home is located on the east side of Brooklyn along Mollie's route.

 

[Jealoushe]

I don't think insanity plea is very smart, when he clearly was able to carry a job for 4 years just fine.

 

[Hatfield]

I will defer to former LE or criminal attorneys on WS but i thought I read somewhere LE can lie to obtain a confession. My brother is retired LE and he said he definitely did a few times when needed (like hit and run cases). Not sure if he was supposed to though lol.

JMO
That is my understanding too. People were wondering how LE got him to confess and tell where the body was and I think LE could have easily just lied to him and told him that he could go free if he told where the body was.

I think that is a perfectly legal LE tactic if they choose to use it. They probably dont like to have to go there but if it meant breaking him and they knew he did it from the blood in the car then I could see where LE may have used that tactic.

Miranda rights mainly gives the defendant the right to remain silent if they wish and the right to an attorney and other things during questioning. But it doesnt mean LE had to be truthful with him during questioning.

If we have any legal eagles here that can chime in about this it would help us.

 

[gillglock]

You're thinking like an American, CR is not. In his cultural frame of reference it's better to cooperate with the Police when questioned, because you don't want to be taken into the back room where things will get MUCH worse. His defense team will likely use this to try and break his Miranda notification, or should. It is in my lifetime that such enhanced interogation tech was used in the country. There are still places in the world where the simbock and rubber hose (with or without your friend a phonebook - no external brusing) are still used. There is a certain wall in the old 1st district police station in New Orleans, where I could still go today and dig out a line of .38 cal slugs that start at the ceiling and end 'just' above where a man's head would be if tied to a chair.

In CR's cultural milieu, when you feel the long arm of LE on your shoulder you talk, or else! I think this puts his Miranda in jeopardy, as all of the best stuff they have on him could be lost as "fruit of the poisoned tree". Though, i think that the State would still have a strong case with the rest of the evidence there are currently developing.

I have full confidence that the jury will get it right and convict him of 1st degree murder. However, he will probably take a deal if he has something to offer. I doubt it goes to trial. Justice will be almost served.

 

[kkdj]

CR didn't confess to stabbing but he did confess to blocking his memory when he becomes enraged. That's an indication of consciousness of guilt that he did something so vile he has to block it out and the DA will use it as evidence. I think his defense is going to be psychiatric.

Let the evaluations begin!

 

[Confusion]

Is there any chance that he's just a fall guy for someone else? I know it's pretty far-fetched, but the whole thing makes no sense to me. When LE comes, he willingly goes with them (not a bad idea, more should do it!), he almost immediately confesses to basically everything except the details of the actual crimes (except for disposing of her body), and someone hires an attorney for him who people say seems pretty incompetent. It almost seems like someone used his car and committed the abduction and murder (and whatever else happened), but has somehow made him say he did it. If someone threatened him and/or someone he cares about, he might confess to avoid the same fate MT had. Sorry, I'd be totally surprised if any part of this was true, but I hate sitting around waiting for justice to prevail and don't want to switch cases yet. MOO

ETA: took out the part about the bail money to prevent spreading rumors. This is all just a "what if" kind of thing, that is in no way based on known facts.

 

[MassGuy]

You're thinking like an American, CR is not. In his cultural frame of reference it's better to cooperate with the Police when questioned, because you don't want to be taken into the back room where things will get MUCH worse. His defense team will likely use this to try and break his Miranda notification, or should. It is in my lifetime that such enhanced interogation tech was used in the country. There are still places in the world where the simbock and rubber hose (with or without your friend a phonebook - no external brusing) are still used. There is a certain wall in the old 1st district police station in New Orleans, where I could still go today and dig out a line of .38 cal slugs that start at the ceiling and end 'just' above where a man's head would be if tied to a chair.

In CR's cultural milieu, when you feel the long arm of LE on your shoulder you talk, or else! I think this puts his Miranda in jeopardy, as all of the best stuff they have on him could be lost as "fruit of the poisoned tree". Though, i think that the State would still have a strong case with the rest of the evidence there are currently developing.

As long as law enforcement followed protocols, the state shouldn’t have any concerns.

The suspect’s reference point (believing that he would be tortured, as he might be in Mexico) isn’t applicable to his rights here. If he has this unfounded fear, and they exploited it to get a confession (as long as LE followed US law), then throwing out Miranda, and the subsequent confession, wouldn’t be possible IMO.

 

[kkdj]

I have full confidence that the jury will get it right and convict him of 1st degree murder. However, he will probably take a deal if he has something to offer. I doubt it goes to trial. Justice will be almost served.

What kind of deal do you think they might offer him? Wouldn't the family have to agree?

 

[Rocco]

Yes, but a lawyer could say CR gave a story to LE to cover for someone else.

I'M NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED, but merely saying it's what a lawyer might say to put doubt in the jury's mind about the confession.

Again, I'm hoping DNA (and other physical evidence) seals the deal.

jmo

You have to know that now that he has an attorney, the story will change.

Yes, he approached her and yes, he took her body out of the trunk and she had a head injury, and yes, he led them to her body. But he doesn't know what 'the other guy who he saw on that road' did to her, because he blocked that out.

(I made the 'the other guy on the road' up---just to be clear.)

 

[Followfacts]

Yes, but the defense could say he was there at the field when she was dumped but isn't the one who stabbed her. Or, someone told him were the body was or even showed him, but he didn't dump her there.

And, CR didn't confess to stabbing. The lawyer is sure to use that in his defense case.

Again, I think CR is the perp.

But the defense team will make the prosecutors prove every single detail. The defense lawyer is not going to say, "Well, CR lead LE to the body so guess he did it." No way. The defense lawyer will poke holes in everything and the prosecution is working right now to make sure no holes can be poked. The confession is not enough, imo.

I think it's worthwhile to think like the defense team - and to think like the prosecutors - now that we're over the shock of learning about what happened to Mollie. Otherwise, we'll have page after page of "he's such a monster!" Yeah he is, but we can take this discussion further now.

jmopinion

Yes the events matter, not just the timeline but the locations and the crimes occurring in those locations. I know we have limited information however I am questioning how his story if it’s even partially holding any truth to the digital info, the maps 5 locations/areas ......Was she abducted at location boundary st and middle st and 385th intersection area?or is that where the Malibu was seen circling and Mollie running through that area? Is the 1900 block 385th where the crime began? Abduction or is that where the digital info indicates physical demise. Did her death happen in the trunk at that location, digital spikes? Did he abduct knock her out , stab and SA her there and then she died in the trunk? He then took her to cornfield site and left her. I just believe it all happened in one area and in quick succession. Because of his admitted block out anger and rage and predatory build up of aggression stalking driving around following by car and foot blitz attack. Any thoughts about what happened 1900 block 385th. This area appears to be on satellite map isolated and few farm houses close. I do believe CR when he said he dragged her, I think this was at 1900 block 385th and the carrying her over his shoulders was when he took her body into the cornfield. He did both but at different locations. Any thoughts??

 

[Inthedetails]

There's electronic evidence as well. If he didn't get rid of her phone until they were well south of 80, then they can get HIS phone pings and place his phone with hers in the car with her and match that to fitbit data that shows her heart rate going bonkers as he's attacking her and possibly even the moment her heart stops. That pretty compelling evidence even without DNA and even if the confession is inadmissible. Imagine a jury seeing record of them travelling in the same car together, her heart rate at first spiking then slowly getting fainter until it stops when she dies in the trunk of the car with him still in it. Is there any way there's any reasonable doubt left?

The reasonable doubt will be....prove who actually stabbed her.

I do agree that electronic evidence could place him at the scene and that would be great evidence to add to the pile of evidence. I'm hoping there is so much evidence that he just pleads guilty and doesn't go to trial. That would be awesome. But I think the defense team is working on....something.

jmo