ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #18

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Eaton: But we do know DeOrr was up there?

Bowerman: I’m fairly confident DeOrr was there. I can’t find anybody that says they’re 100 percent positive he was there, but I feel fairly confident he was there at one time.



Prior to these last few interviews with SB, it was my opinion that whatever happened to DeOrr happened Thursday night/Friday morning. These statements about how no one (including IR, apparently) can say with 100% confidence that they saw DeOrr are really eating at me and causing me to question whether DeOrr was ever there.... I just cannot understand how IR doesn't know for sure if he saw DeOrr or not. Does he not have one single memory of something that DeOrr did or something that DeOrr said? Did he hear DeOrr cry? Did he see DeOrr eat breakfast? Did he see DeOrr sitting on GGPA's lap? Did DeOrr want to go fishing? I just don't understand how IR could be on the camping trip and NOT know for sure if he saw DeOrr. I can understand him not remembering WHEN he last saw DeOrr but not IF he saw DeOrr.

There still seems to be no answer to the question of when someone, other than the POIs, last saw DeOrr. Even if they have to go back to July 8th or July 7th, why is that information still unknown (at least to us)?

I am not one of those that has ever been in the camp of "he was never there," but I find myself leaning in that direction right now. I am wondering if GGPA and IR had been planning to go on the trip, but that DK and JM's decision to go was more "last minute," perhaps seeing an opportunity to explain DeOrr's disappearance. I don't understand how they pulled it all off without IR and GGPA not noticing that DeOrr wasn't really there, but from the sounds of things, it could have been possible because IR can't say for sure if he saw DeOrr.

I am so confused. All speculation and MOO.

IR said he saw him. Due to the investigation he is not at liberty, per his attorney, to give any further details.

Bowerman said he cannot confirm if anyone outside of the four saw him after they left home as far as I recollect.

 

[giagreen]

I think they may have already disposed of DeOrr before they went to the camp and possibly had a teddy bear or something covered up, and passed it off as DeOrr sleeping. That could be why IR said that he saw him, but in reality only saw something covered up.

I got behind on reading all the posts, so if this has already been hashed around, please ignore.

I have a funny feeling that between sb and the fbi they were very clear with the questions they asked IR about DeOrr amd how he was when he seen him. I believe sb...I think he was there.

 

[cobalt sky]

Eaton: But we do know DeOrr was up there?

Bowerman: I’m fairly confident DeOrr was there. I can’t find anybody that says they’re 100 percent positive he was there, but I feel fairly confident he was there at one time."


Prior to these last few interviews with SB, it was my opinion that whatever happened to DeOrr happened Thursday night/Friday morning. These statements about how no one (including IR, apparently) can say with 100% confidence that they saw DeOrr are really eating at me and causing me to question whether DeOrr was ever there.... I just cannot understand how IR doesn't know for sure if he saw DeOrr or not. Does he not have one single memory of something that DeOrr did or something that DeOrr said? Did he hear DeOrr cry? Did he see DeOrr eat breakfast? Did he see DeOrr sitting on GGPA's lap? Did DeOrr want to go fishing? I just don't understand how IR could be on the camping trip and NOT know for sure if he saw DeOrr. I can understand him not remembering WHEN he last saw DeOrr but not IF he saw DeOrr.

There still seems to be no answer to the question of when someone, other than the POIs, last saw DeOrr. Even if they have to go back to July 8th or July 7th, why is that information still unknown (at least to us)?

I am not one of those that has ever been in the camp of "he was never there," but I find myself leaning in that direction right now. I am wondering if GGPA and IR had been planning to go on the trip, but that DK and JM's decision to go was more "last minute," perhaps seeing an opportunity to explain DeOrr's disappearance. I don't understand how they pulled it all off without IR and GGPA not noticing that DeOrr wasn't really there, but from the sounds of things, it could have been possible because IR can't say for sure if he saw DeOrr.

I am so confused. All speculation and MOO.

I think it's possible that Sheriff B meant: "I'm fairly confident DeOrr was there. Aside from the four adults camping with DeOrr, I can't find anybody that says they're 100 percent positive he was there, but I feel fairly confident he was there at one time."

 

[giagreen]

He didn't mention asking him where he found them. The way he told the story he and JM were exploring, happened upon the minnows and went back to get DeOrr.

I caught this also. Between DK, JM, and IR I'd of never guessed they were togeather. If it wasn't for SB we wouldn't have a clue which is why I wonder If this was something IR told SB.

 

[Aeronomy]

Eaton: But we do know DeOrr was up there?

Bowerman: I’m fairly confident DeOrr was there. I can’t find anybody that says they’re 100 percent positive he was there, but I feel fairly confident he was there at one time.



Prior to these last few interviews with SB, it was my opinion that whatever happened to DeOrr happened Thursday night/Friday morning. These statements about how no one (including IR, apparently) can say with 100% confidence that they saw DeOrr are really eating at me and causing me to question whether DeOrr was ever there.... I just cannot understand how IR doesn't know for sure if he saw DeOrr or not. Does he not have one single memory of something that DeOrr did or something that DeOrr said? Did he hear DeOrr cry? Did he see DeOrr eat breakfast? Did he see DeOrr sitting on GGPA's lap? Did DeOrr want to go fishing? I just don't understand how IR could be on the camping trip and NOT know for sure if he saw DeOrr. I can understand him not remembering WHEN he last saw DeOrr but not IF he saw DeOrr.

There still seems to be no answer to the question of when someone, other than the POIs, last saw DeOrr. Even if they have to go back to July 8th or July 7th, why is that information still unknown (at least to us)?

I am not one of those that has ever been in the camp of "he was never there," but I find myself leaning in that direction right now. I am wondering if GGPA and IR had been planning to go on the trip, but that DK and JM's decision to go was more "last minute," perhaps seeing an opportunity to explain DeOrr's disappearance. I don't understand how they pulled it all off without IR and GGPA not noticing that DeOrr wasn't really there, but from the sounds of things, it could have been possible because IR can't say for sure if he saw DeOrr.

I am so confused. All speculation and MOO.

THANK YOU!! This was the point I was trying to get at after the interview last night, even before the interview with Nate today when he stated again that he's not 100% confident.

I'm down to either IR is not sure, the sheriff is not sure of IR, . . . or IR is sure and the sheriff is sure of IR, but IR's poly wasn't sure. However, if the latter is the case, then that wouldn't make much sense. Because if IR's poly was expected to be inconclusive (deeming it unreliable, imho) then it shouldn't hold any weight.

 

[Mickshawn]

I have a funny feeling that between sb and the fbi they were very clear with the questions they asked IR about DeOrr amd how he was when he seen him. I believe sb...I think he was there.

But the question is: What's the definition of "there"??....and...alive and well? Asleep? Other?

 

[bluesneakers]

I think it's possible that Sheriff B meant: "I'm fairly confident DeOrr was there. Aside from the four adults camping with DeOrr, I can't find anybody that says they're 100 percent positive he was there, but I feel fairly confident he was there at one time."

Yes. This is exactly the way I understood it too.

 

[Hoosier952]

One more thing I forgot. I find it really, really interesting that LE keeps saying IR is "the most consistent" not the most truthful. It could be he is just the most consistent with his lies. JMO and more conjecture than anything else. I just find that choice of words curious.

I think there are several possible reasons. For one, everyone at that camp is either a suspect or has issues (blanket term, nothing negative). You can't really take what the suspects say as truth. GGP can't remember anything, or so we've been told, so LE can't really compare IR's statement to a possible dementia patient. And that leaves a polygraph that IR wasn't expected to and can't pass. So there's absolutely nothing to compare his statement to. I don't think he could accurately say it's the truth, because there's always a chance that everything is a lie or he's been coached/threatened/is only repeating what he knows of the story he saw and heard before and after the fact. I think it's him choosing the best phrase for the situation he's in and I bet it's an irritating one.

In fact, it kind of reminds me of what happens when my children are trying to cover up something. One was conveniently not in the room when it happens and knows nothing, one tells a story and then gives the remaining child the death stare until she has the exact same story and they both pin it on the one that wasn't in the room, because she's the easy target and has no one to back her side of the story.

 

[Aeronomy]

"I can’t find anybody that says they’re 100 percent positive he was there, but I feel fairly confident he was there at one time." - Sheriff Bowerman

FWIW - There is no one that can state they're 100 percent positive he was there unless they were there too. This tells me there is some reason to doubt all 4 individuals known to be present.

(besides someone on a video chat or something which I doubt would be the case)

"...at one time"
okay? at least one time but maybe no more than one time?

 

[cluciano63]

I have a funny feeling that between sb and the fbi they were very clear with the questions they asked IR about DeOrr amd how he was when he seen him. I believe sb...I think he was there.

I know on lie detector tests, they ask the main question in different ways, i.e "do you know for sure what happened to DeOrr?" And "do you know for sure who harmed DeOrr?" Etc... They do not leave much room for ambigious results. Jmo

 

[giagreen]

But the question is: What's the definition of "there"??....and...alive and well? Asleep? Other?

The definition of "there" means
in, at, or to that place or position. And in this case I think its pretty clear that "there" would be the campsite. No need to complicate things more them they need to be.

And I do beleive they asked IR all those questions very carefully. If they didn't then that means them calling DK and JM suspects means nothing.

 

[citizen watch]

Hair on a shovel blew away.

I'm new to the forum so please forgive me if I don't do this correctly... I am very familiar with the land in leadore and Lemhi county. Unless the shovel comes back with blood or other physical evidence here are my thoughts. The land in Lemhi County is extremely dry and trying to dig a grave would be very difficult if to bury a body deep enough dogs couldn't track it. Not saying that the grave is outside the search area, but with Vernal driving to get cell service it would be risky to take the body and try to bury it in another location due to the difficulty of the soil being extremely hard and risking the SAR being there before he returned to campsite. IMO it could have happened the night before and IR doesn't actually remember seeing DeOrz before the Leadore trip to get groceries. I am not so sure I believe IR story and timeline due to his capacity. I'm keeping my reservations about his timeline. Remember, he does have a criminal history that he needs to protect as well.

Grandpa is not in the equation as far as I'm concerned. Too sick and he is just along for the fun of a camping trip. They probably hid him from the details and personally GGP was probably not well enough to pay extremely close attention to intricate details.

My theory as strange at is seems, unless physical evidence on shovel shows something different, Leadore grocery trip was stagged......Transfer Deorr to a "buyer" ( hate that word), parents are paid cash....stage missing toddler in wilderness to clear their name from family and friend, cash is stashed until heat from LE goes away.....Billboards are put up with abduction scenario, incase toddler appears somewhere else and parents can go back onto the abduction theory to clear their names. IMO

Gladly take thoughts on this. Also, in regards to the dogs.....winds in Idaho are very unpredictable and with Deorr being placed at the campsite the night before of course they are gonna know his scent....but to actually follow the scent to a specific site would be nearly impossible IMO if the winds were blowing the least little trace. Plus if there was any afternoon thunder showers on any one of these days.....which is likely in this region wouldn't that also diminish the dogs finding a scent?

(modsnip)

 

[ILOKAL]

Nothing weird or unusual about exploring, I totally agree. But in this case, little Deorr disappeared during the creek adventure....so that makes it a pretty key element of the story. IMO

NTL, whether the reservoir is a more suitable place to fish than the creek is a matter of opinion. IMO, the creek is a great place to fish and there's nothing strange about fishing there.

 

[kammiemc]

I have said it before, and I will say it again, I think people give way too much credit to LE. Folks here seem to assume that they plan out every word that they use or that every statement must mean something. I don't think that is the case at all, especially with smaller, local agencies. These guys do not have specialized training in communication and they make mistakes all the time.

I will counter that point with this: I think there is a difference between giving undeserved credit to local LE vs assuming that everything they do, everything they say, is quite possibly wrong or untruthful. To be honest, I get saddened and frustrated by how critical some people can be of those working hard trying to find little DeOrr while simultaneously seeming to defend every step the suspects (who also happen to be his own parents) make.

Added: and this isn't necessarily directed at you sunflowerchick. It is just something that gets to me.

 

[Inthedetails]

But the question is: What's the definition of "there"??....and...alive and well? Asleep? Other?

The definition of "there" means
in, at, or to that place or position. And in this case I think its pretty clear that "there" would be the campsite. No need to complicate things more them they need to be.

And I do beleive they asked IR all those questions very carefully. If they didn't then that means them calling DK and JM suspects means nothing.

Right, but did he see Deorr playing, asleep, fussing, in the car, by the creek. We don't know how Deorr was, just that IR says the toddler was there. Jmo

 

[kammiemc]

I don't necessarily agree... They made the change to "less than truthful" with regard to DK and JM. I think they're being fairly crafty if you ask me.

I would say more precise, personally! Crafty implies some sneakiness. That might not be what you meant. But I am not sensing a high level of that coming from this sheriff.

 

[citizen watch]

maybe he just thinks he saw him ( in the truck sleeping with a blanket) that could also be stagged.

 

[ReadySet]

There are also links to some good maps on the first page of the Media thread. http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Media-Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot

Thanks, I've got lots of maps bookmarked too. :tyou:

 

[ILOKAL]

BBM
I'm wondering why anyone would automatically think that "individuals who either know Mom and Dad and the child and have seen them either interact in the past or they’ve overheard something or they think they can provide information" means that indicates possible child abuse. They could have been calls from people stating that they were wonderful parents and had a whole world of love for Deorr.

Well, when certain theories must have a motive (to be believable), then some WITH those theories might have a reason to look for such a backstory. As far as I'm concerned, it seems like Bowerman is just fishing, and rightfully so.

 

[Deleted member 718]

I don't remember seeing this one. Vilt speaks and Vernal's attorney Browning also speaks.

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_c4a3d0ab-769a-5bad-b810-374322a60d39.html

Jan 27, 2016
Investigator to DeOrr Kunz’s parents: 'The truth will come out'

"Browning also noted that Kunz Sr. has cooperated “100 percent” with the police investigation, and that the father spent 10 straight days right after his son’s disappearance searching the campground and the surrounding area, including potentially dangerous bear dens."

Vernal searched bear dens? First I've heard about that.