ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #18

[TheTruthWillOut]

I could swear I heard NONE too. I'll have to go back and listen again.

I just listened multiple times and I think that the words 'none', 'of', 'the' and 'other' get melded into one word has he says it. Combined with the poor sound quality, it doesn't sound like he says the word 'none of the'. Given the context and general negative vibe about the dogs I do think he must have said 'none of the other' very quickly.

I went with baby Deoor wandered theory and still go back there from time to time but the lies make it impossible to stay there for me. They lied about the reward money being disallowed by LE. Why? Were they afraid someone knew what they did and would tell for money?

According to Vilt funds raised might have been mismanaged/stolen. Money can be a huge reason to lie.

FBI/LE says they lied about when and how baby Deoor disappeared. If they are lying the big question to me is why? I cant get past that one.

JMO

Could this scenario/theory work? (please correct me if something obvious I'm forgetting rules this out)

GGP is left alone with Deorr
He wanders off.
Parents return and start the search.
At some point they find him too late without GGP's and IR's knowledge and decide on a cover-up in panic.
They return to the camp and JM makes 911 call and VDK jumps in truck to make his 911 call and moves body further away.

Then we have ~ 1.5 hours from the 911 call that I don't think we know anything about?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I'm finding it hard to believe that they would be searching a full hour before calling 911. If my child were missing, every minute searching would feel like a decade. There were 4 people there. GGP could've stayed at "home base" while 2 others frantically searched while one person quickly called 911. I can't grasp that there is a creek and a reservoir and likely predators in the area that they had any reason to look that long (seems like a stall).

Then, at a certain point they became so fervent that Deorr Sr hauled down to ensure cell service while his wife already had them on the line? Why after an hour would 2 people decide they immediately need to call 911? Not to mention the call JM made didn't sound frantic or urgent.

This seems odd IMO.

... and why did JM call at all, if she is almost not "able" to speak during an interview?? Why didn't she let her partner call 911? Somehow conspicuous, IMO.

 

[Eileen730]

There's just no reasonable explanation that I can think of that would explain JM and vDK's behavior at the time of the disappearance and since the disappearance.

They have actually actively limited efforts to find their son. Their families have done far more than they themselves have. A *complete stranger* put up the $4K to hire KIC. Another unrelated person was able to get some billboards done. They never got the incorrect eye color info corrected on one of his missing posters.

And seriously, who leaves their "mover and go-er" 2 year old at a large open campsite only a few yards from a steep embankment with a creek at the bottom, with an elderly man who has dementia and is oxygen dependent, and couldn't possibly catch little D if he took off? And supposedly did so without even verifying that GGP actually knew he was the only one watching D?

I'm not so sure GGP is as feeble as they make him out to be.
dosent he live alone?
He goes fishing?
Granted lung problems and being on oxygen hinder movements.


Question does he still drive?

 

[Eileen730]

The sheriff spoke about "early afternoon or early evening" on Thursday - why doesn't he know better?

He only knows what he is told by these ppl.

LE is only as good as the info or the evidence they get.

If they are telling the truth they should all be basically telling the same story!

 

[ILOKAL]

Again...he explained why he uses those words. They did TELL THE TRUTH on some questions. No matter how you spin it, less than truthful means less than truthful and when it applies to some VERY IMPORTANT questions (again, do they know what happened to the toddler and do they know where the toddler IS) those less than truthful answers are HUGE! If they hadn't been completely truthful about what they ate for dinner, eh, okay. But less than truthful on those two specific questions is crucial and why (along with other FBI analysis) they were upgraded to SUSPECTS rather than just POIs because of being there.
Let's also not forget...LE have other information they are not telling the public. That is standard with every case I've ever seen. When all is said and done, that's when we will know what all info they've been working with.

You DO understand they didn't fail ANY of the four polygraphs each was administered. All four came back "inconclusive". Had they outright LIED, their polygraphs would have come back as deception indicated. They did not. Now the questions about who took a fishing pole to the creek and who cooked breakfast, would not have been asked on a polygraph. Also of interest is that all four POI's polygraphs came back inconclusive. Perhaps there's a problem with the Pre-questions or even the questions themselves, and that's why they ALL came back that way.

 

[SweetT]

"...I seen him to the point I figured out he was gone and I come back up from the creek and I actually seen there were some things down there, little minnows I thought he would just love, so when I come back up to get him and I yelled over to Grandpa..."

How does this statement make any sense?

Wow it doesn't that is some made up rambling on if I've ever heard any. For some reason I keep thinking he is going to state how he is an event planner at Disney world. The rambling is totally familiar.

 

[giagreen]

I'm finding it hard to believe that they would be searching a full hour before calling 911. If my child were missing, every minute searching would feel like a decade. There were 4 people there. GGP could've stayed at "home base" while 2 others frantically searched while one person quickly called 911. I can't grasp that there is a creek and a reservoir and likely predators in the area that they had any reason to look that long (seems like a stall).

Then, at a certain point they became so fervent that Deorr Sr hauled down to ensure cell service while his wife already had them on the line? Why after an hour would 2 people decide they immediately need to call 911? Not to mention the call JM made didn't sound frantic or urgent.

This seems odd IMO.

This whole time this has been the only thing that's bothered me with the parents. Otherwise I've never felt anything els was really that weird.

My son went missing about a month ago (or at least I thought he was) and within 3 whole minutes of me actually truly believing he was missing I called 911. By the time Le arrived he'd been missing about whole 8 min. I remember at the time what I was thinking was he's fine but won't be soon if I don't get patrol cars and cops out looking now. So yes its bothered me that they waited an hour to call.

But I've dragged my best friend into this case and I brought this up to her a few days ago actually and she made a few good points. She pointed out I called 911 right away because I was thinking with my ws brain. Had I not read all these missing child cases maybe I'd of looked a little harder before calling. And I think that'd actually be about right. Because of these threads I new exacly what needed to be done first even tho I felt he was fine just gone out of my sight and I'd find him.

Also one the first things the 911 dispatcher and the officers asked was is if there was anyone I could think of that'd take him. And even tho I felt he wondered off and couldn't understand why anyone would take him I still off the top of my head came up with a list of people including the weird guy who walks past our house everyday. Idk for some reason by them asking that it made me feel better like that's what they think and if so then that needs to be followed asap.

 

[Deleted member 50844]

You DO understand they didn't fail ANY of the four polygraphs each was administered. All four came back "inconclusive". Had they outright LIED, their polygraphs would have come back as deception indicated. They did not. Now the questions about who took a fishing pole to the creek and who cooked breakfast, would not have been asked on a polygraph. Also of interest is that all four POI's polygraphs came back inconclusive. Perhaps there's a problem with the Pre-questions or even the questions themselves, and that's why they ALL came back that way.

I haven't seen specifically what question IM and GGP were inconclusive about, but I have seen which specific questions both parents were less than truthful about. BIG IMPORTANT ones, in my opinion and in also in the opinion of LE and the FBI.

I'm still interested in your opinion of why an innocent parent wouldn't be 100% truthful on the specific question of "Do you know where your missing child is?"

 

[SweetT]

OR . . . . This? OR . . . . That? OR how about . . . . THIS!? Or, how about he wandered off and got lost?

Maybe he did, but LE think the parents are lying. I guess I am trying to believe LE and the FBI and their interpretation of the polygraphs etc. I believed LE when he said they were solid and didn't point the finger at the parents and now believe him when he does, so you can believe how you want, I will believe what I want. Simple..How bout that? I do think abuse is going to play into this and thats my opinion at this point....I no longer feel a mountain lion carried him away.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

Don't both GGP and IR have recognised medical conditions (both taking medication/drugs?) that LE knew beforehand would render their Polygraphs inconclusive. A pure guess but may be LE/FBI did them anyway for comparison purposes? Behavioral analysis and all that.

 

[CJidaho]

That hasn't been MY personal experience through years of fishing. When someone is catching fish, it is quite common for others to inquire not only where the fish are biting, but questions such as what are you using for bait, what pound line are you using, did you catch them on the top or on the bottom, did you use a bobber, etc. Very common indeed!

yes except in this case IR was catching minnows, and they wanted to see the minnows to show Deorr, but did not take him along to see them. Then decided they wanted to show him and "poof!"

 

[renarde]

Was the diaper ever recovered? Could a diaper be tested for unusual substances that DeOrr might've ingested?

Was there really just one used diaper?

 

[Mountaingazer]

Does anyone have a good link for how polygraph tests actually work? I have seen one posted a couple times on websleuths but now I am having trouble finding it. Pop culture and even the nickname "lie detector test" give an inaccurate view of how they actually work.

 

[ILOKAL]

I keep thinking about SB saying that IR places Deorr at the campsite after the store trip. Perhaps that is what IR was told - that Deorr was there, but taking a nap (either in the truck or the suburban) and that he would be fine with GGP. But that he never saw him running around - alive. But because he was told that, he believes it - and therefore states it as fact (hasn't it been said that he is of diminished mental capacity - maybe that of a 6th grader?).

He could have possibly seen him when they arrived at camp the previous night. But didn't necessarily see him the next day because he was either sleeping in or already fishing by the time the family was loaded in the truck to go to Leadore.

We don't have a clear timeframe on when they left the campsite that morning, right? Just that they were at the store at the time of the receipt. I think they left earlier than 10:00.

The diminished mental capacity - maybe that of a 6th grader was from a poster. No one else has said that, that I know of. IMO

 

[SweetT]

"Less than truthful" doesn't mean they lied. Had they lied, they would have failed their polygraphs. I keep reminding that those specific words, "less than truth" are used for a reason.

Less than truthful is LYING my guess is SB is being nice and just not wanting to use the word "Liars" of course thats my take on it.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

yes except in this case IR was catching minnows, and they wanted to see the minnows to show Deorr, but did not take him along to see them. Then decided they wanted to show him and "poof!"

... AND they wanted to show him - little Deorr - the whatever although he had his naptime ... sounds strange.

 

[ClaireNC]

Just want to throw this out there from Tricia's interview with SB:

19:41
TG: Exactly! One of our members said, “I noticed in your first comment this week, regarding the parents, you originally said they had been deceptive and then you changed that to less than truthful. Can you explain the reason for that change in wording?” Now, there could be absolutely no reason but that’s our Websleuths members, they get right down to the nitty gritty and really want the littlest details.

20:07
SB: Absolutely. I didn’t want them to think their whole polygraph was deceptive. It wasn’t. They passed portions of it, but the portions on whether they knew where Deorr was or knew what happened to him, they were not being…they were being less than truthful . So that’s why I changed it. I didn’t want them to think…normally you think when someone is deceptive everything they told you is a lie but that’s not the case.

I remember hearing the sheriff say in some of the initial interviews last week that the parents were being deceptive. The media sources later went back and edited out that word. I do not hear him saying that the parents polys were inconclusive. He is saying they indicate the parents are being less than truthful. In the the bolded parts above, I hear that they passed some parts, while they were deceptive on other parts.

As a refresher - here is the simple definition of deception:

adjective de·cep·tive \di-ˈsep-tiv\
Simple Definition of deceptive
: intended to make someone believe something that is not true
: likely to make someone believe something that is not true

So to me "being less than truthful" = "being deceptive" It is the same thing, different words.

In addition, the parents took 3 or 4 polys. Some of these were administered by local LE and some by the FBI. (Sorry I don't have a link handy, but I can go back and find some if needed.) All of the tests they took came back as "less than truthful" on certain key, very important questions.

While IR's and GGP's polys were labeled as inclusive due to medical and "other" reasons. VDK's and JM's polys indicated that they were truthful in some parts and deceitful in others. It really is not fair or logical to group them together.

argumentum ad infinitum

 

[carbuff]

I had been thinking that the parents might have been prevaricating over something else ("we were! (modsnip)," for example) and that's why the results were skewed, but something like that or drinking or whatever wouldn't affect the very specific questions that SB says were the ones not answered truthfully.

 

[ILOKAL]

I'm having a hard time with this. With the parts that the sheriff said they were less than truthful with were yes or no questions, if they answered no to those questions and failed those questions in 4 polys wouldn't that be a lie?

We have no way of knowing the Pre-test questions nor the test questions, so we have no way of knowing what was asked, how it was asked, and how it was answered. Had the polygraph results come back "deception indicated" THAT would have been a fail, not an inconclusive. They did not fail any of the four polygraphs. They all came back inconclusive.

 

[Deleted member 50844]

I had been thinking that the parents might have been prevaricating over something else ("we were screwing in the tent and wouldn't have heard the end of the world," for example) and that's why the results were skewed, but something like that or drinking or whatever wouldn't affect the very specific questions that SB says were the ones not answered truthfully.

Right on. It doesn't matter IMO what questions they did answer 100% truthfully when they won't answer those very BIG and IMPORTANT questions with 100% truthfulness. We don't know the questions they were truthful about but wowza, we do know what ones they were less than truthful about and those are huge red flags.
Apparently the FBI thinks so too.