ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #18

[Pretty Go Pale]

That's how I took as well. It was brought up earlier that it didn't make sense, though, when you've been searching so long and all of a sudden it's pertinent that you haul . I have wondered if his use of the word hauling was just a normal word to him since he is/was a truck driver.

I just assumed, like I expect most did, that Vernal meant he drove very quickly to make the call.

 

[Dee10]

Rayemonde, those trivial questions weren't a part of the polygraph. Those were part of the many interviews. You just can't say (well I guess YOU and others CAN and HAVE) that their answers to these polygraph questions were lies without knowing what the control questions were and how they were answered. The answers to the control questions determine how the real questions are graded. A lie on an innocuous control question, even when the answer given to the real question is the absolute truth, will generally result in a failed polygraph. Although they didn't fail their polygraphs, there must be problems with the control questions with the end result being inconclusive. I hope you can understand what I have tried to explain. IMO

I don't think the Sheriff is a poly expert, nor has he tried to be however he has given the public the gist in layman's terms and he was kind or humble enough that he didn't want to use the term "failed/lied" on certain questions.

Do you realize the are two different set of scores and the "hand score" is deemed better than the "computerized score." Do you think the Sheriff misread the FBI report? I feel totally confident the FBI is on top of things regarding polys and behavior analysis and have it covered.

 

[katydid23]

We 've been discussing whether "less than truthful" means the same as "lying" for most of those posts

When my kids were teens, they used to cover for each other by being less than truthful. My son was planning to go into LAw Enforcement so he knew he was going to have to pass a huge Background investigation and so he did not want to lie during these years. But we would corner him and ask about his little sisters antics. LOL

When I would ask him things like " Was your sister drinking with her friends at the party?" he would say , less than truthfully,
"NOT THAT I SAW." What he said was the truth, he did not see her doing so. But it was less than truthful because she called him for a ride home and he knew she had been playing Beer Pong. :nuts:

So being 'less than truthful' is very close to lying, imo. I did not blame my son for covering for her and was glad they stuck together and had each others backs. But in reality, he was being 'less than truthful' which was pretty darn close to lying.

 

[Sillybilly]

This is what the Sheriff said:

from:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12319129#post12319129

20:07
SB: Absolutely. I didn’t want them to think their whole polygraph was deceptive. It wasn’t. They passed portions of it, but the portions on whether they knew where Deorr was or knew what happened to him, they were not being…they were being less than truthful .

Agree to disagree and move on.

 

[persimmon]

Too many posts to quote, so I'm just going to bullet point a few things:
- hematoma/brain bleed discussion: the little one could have definitely bonked his head & suffered a slow bleed between the skull & brain. The symptoms could be overlooked by parents who are not paying attention, generally drowsiness, inappropriate emotional outbursts, saying things that don't make sense, stumbling around, and so on. Most parents would catch on but intoxicated/neglectful parents miss this ALL THE TIME.
- GGP (possible) dementia coming & going: people with dementia can be minute to minute, clear as day and then totally out of it the next. They can also be pretty with it except they think it is 30 years ago. It's a bizarre & devastating disease process.
- Dementia & Driving: If someone is diagnosed with dementia there is usually a surrender of driving privileges as a collaborative effort between the care givers & healthcare team. If the caregivers were uncooperative there is a legal process the doc would have to begin, which takes time, to alert the state that the priveledge needs to be revoked. This is a huge HIPAA thing. This is general info relating to dementia & driving in general, I am not speculating on GGP or caregivers in particular. There were general questions about the ability to drive up to the campground yet unable to pass poly. It is possible for someone to retain a lifelong motor skill & not be aware of the date/ people around them. I'm also not saying that because people "can" drive that they "should" drive.

GGF may not have dementia but may have other health issues that could be related to memory loss. For instance, even minor strokes can cause such issues that may be difficult for healthcare providers to assess. This was the case with my father and as such he continued driving until a massive stroke rendered that impossible. There are many possibilities and to a casual observer or even a healthcare provider, the person may seem cognitively aware and healthy but to close insiders that may not be the case. Perhaps that is why GGF was no longer living independently.

Another side effect I personally witnessed with my father's failing mind was that post-stroke he really didn't care about people any longer and this included his once beloved grandchildren. It's possible that something similiar is at play here, and one reason GGF recall is not thorough or reliable. We assume because somebody was present and related to the child, he had a strong, vested interest in the child's presence and activities, but perhaps he didn't.
Jmo

 

[OakingtonAve]

FWIW Raymonde I find your posts on topic, respectful, and thought provoking. So, I totally agree! The parents are suspects! This is a sleuthing forum! That is why most of us are here!

I totally agree. Love Raymonde's well thought out posts and will always hone in on the green t shirt pic if I'm scrolling through as know they will be of interest/ relevance.

 

[Onebest]

I don't see much of a difference between the two. Less than=not

Except no matter how you slice and dice the wording, after the "less then truthful" the parents status changed from POI to Suspects......

 

[Dee10]

I thought it was a strange choice of word... They'd been looking for an hour, but suddenly there's this big need to speed away from the campsite?

Did Vernal ever say how far he drove away before stopping to make the call?

Yes, 1/2 a mile with a reason IIRC where I knew I could get reception or something similar, because I wondered how he knew that. It was in the beginning video (of course).

 

[Eileen730]

A child is missing!
No one should be LESS THAN TRUTHFULL!

They should be spilling their guts!

This case gets me so annoyed.
These 4 ppl have all the answers!

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Re polygraphs - the Sheriff said he takes them with a grain of salt, many people here don't trust them completely, the UK, other countries and several US states don't admit them to be used in court. I'm more inclined to believe that those who spent time with the parents. LE (not just SB), Vilt and Klein all feel they lied, and that's as much to do with body language, observation, behaviour and gut instinct as anything on paper. When they all say the parents weren't truthful we have to remember that's based on actually meeting the parents multiple times, knowing their stories changed, knowing they behaved oddly. It's not JUST about taking a few tests.

 

[carbuff]

Actually, one advertised online was used and selling for $33,000. It all depends on what is added on.

I've just about stopped commenting anymore because I have no idea what happened but do think the parents both know. I'm good with just reading!

When I did some quick googling, Rubicons appeared to have the same MSR as Camrys. But as you point out, options make a big difference.

 

[bluesneakers]

We 've been discussing whether "less than truthful" means the same as "lying" for most of those posts

And minnows!
:fishy:

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Also. While I remember and in case it hasn't already been brought up - could 2:36 be the time that Jessica finished the 911 call? Like she checked her phone when she hung up - ok, it's 2:36, make a mental note. I would.

 

[LietKynes]

Trying to catch up on my reading here...... lots of good posts and questions to ponder.

I would like to hear from the grandpa. Even if it was a rambling statement, it might shed a few clues.
And if he was capable of watching a toddler-- he should be competent enough to answer some questions.
Might be wrong or way off mark -- but I've had the feeling the parents do NOT want grandpa questioned, lest he slip up and say something "wrong".
Am going to go way back , and read threads that explain why he wasn't interviewed, and who might have prevented it.

Sorry if this was discussed in previous threads, but does anyone involved in the investigation know what road VK drove , allegedly to "get a better signal" ? And if so, did they drive that route and search around it ?
Would his 911 call and cell pings show the direction he went ?
If there was anything needing to be disposed of, that would've been the perfect opportunity.

MOO

 

[Eileen730]

Re polygraphs - the Sheriff said he takes them with a grain of salt, many people here don't trust them completely, the UK, other countries and several US states don't admit them to be used in court. I'm more inclined to believe that those who spent time with the parents. LE (not just SB), Vilt and Klein all feel they lied, and that's as much to do with body language, observation, behaviour and gut instinct as anything on paper. When they all say the parents weren't truthful we have to remember that's based on actually meeting the parents multiple times, knowing their stories changed, knowing they behaved oddly. It's not JUST about taking a few tests.

I think a polygraph is an investigative tool that helps LE rule ppl out.
I see nothing wrong with them.
They also have voice stress tests.

 

[cluciano63]

They do not ask vague questions in a polygraph, i.e they would not ask if they had any ideas as to where DeOrr is, rather they would ask "do you know for certain who took/harmed DeOrr?". No room for confusion. Jmo

 

[Hippie Heart]

Am I horrible for chuckling every time I read a post about him "hauling" down the road? I wasn't here when this case started, in fact I've only been living and breathing it for about a week, to get caught up. Was his use of that word unusual to you all here? I immediately thought he meant "hauling " as in driving fast, as we say that here a lot. I can see where it could be taken literally like he was hauling someone along.
It's just funny to me to see that every time. I guess I get this picture in my head of him putting the petal to the metal, cartoon like.

I said "hauling" down the road in a post earlier today and I definitely meant hauling , lol

 

[Arnie M]

You've got that right. We don't really know. It sure would be nice if the parents decided to take a turn and be 100% truthful with those in charge of trying to locate this toddler.

YES . I think that is what it simmers down to. If there is a break in this case it may come from the parents , either explain what they are covering up , or confess an accident , or maybe adamantly proclaim innocence.

Almost like the ball is in their court now. And it is a unique situation. The heat is on . If they remain silent it will make them even look worse. They almost have to step up and say something now.

.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I think a polygraph is an investigative tool that helps LE rule ppl out.
I see nothing wrong with them.
They also have voice stress tests.

Not saying there's anything wrong with them. Personally I'd be more inclined to believe them than not (it's science, innit!) but they're not infallible.

Out of interest has anyone looked up an official polygraph definition of "inconclusive"?

 

[Rayemonde]

Sorry if this was discussed in previous threads, but does anyone involved in the investigation know what road VK drove , allegedly to "get a better signal" ? And if so, did they drive that route and search around it ?
Would his 911 call and cell pings show the direction he went ?
If there was anything needing to be disposed of, that would've been the perfect opportunity.

MOO

Yes, you're right is anyone good with maps? How do we find the campsite on Google earth?