ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #18

[Aeronomy]

,As far as I'm aware there is no official result from a polygraph that would state "less than truthful".
And also as far as I'm aware, an examiner has only three options when determining the results of each question:

Deception Indicated - No Deception Indicated - No Opinion

and only one of the above (imho) can be confidently stated as less than truthful.

Edit to ask: If you do not respond to the control question that's related to the specified question truthfully, does that render a less than truthful determination? If so, 4 polys with the same determination does not equal examiner error, but something going on with the test taker.

 

[scmom]

Not saying there's anything wrong with them. Personally I'd be more inclined to believe them than not (it's science, innit!) but they're not infallible.

Out of interest has anyone looked up an official polygraph definition of "inconclusive"?

Why yes, yes I have.

 

[Midge Montana]

Ok, onto something different.
Has it ever been said that LE verified that the time stamp on the receipt was accurate?
I ask because just the other day my spouse and I made a purchase from a mom and pop store here. We were looking at the receipt and the time was way off. We actually laughed and said we hoped we'd never need to use that slip for an alibi. I'm sure stores like Wal-Mart, etc. would be calibrated properly because they're using most modern registers, but I got the feeling that this store they went to could be using a more manual set register.
Not sure if that would even make a difference, but it could change the timeline if that's what they were using as a set-point.

 

[TeaTime]

CoverMeCagney - no. We are pretty much back to square one since SB revealed that IR saw DeOrr after the family returned from the store in Leadore at around 1:10pm. The 1:10pm time was given by JM and IR didn't have any reason to disagree with her as he had no watch.

SB stated the JM and VDK were les than truthful on critical questions during their 4 polygraphs and those questions were (not quoting) "do you know what happened to DeOrr?' and 'do you know where DeOrr is?'. The FBI confirmed what SB thought and he firmly stated that the parents know what happened and where he is located.

SB also said that their stories keep changing and they haven't been able to tell the same story twice.

SB said this information is timely as there were people who were calling him wanting to know if they should donate to the Find DeOrr" funds.

A self-serving letter from PI Vilz has appeared in which he tells the parents off for being less than truthful with him and in which he tells them he thinks they are involved in the child's disappearance.

Vilz said that he wanted to go national with the case and post a $20K reward but that he was told by VDK that the sheriff didn't want them to do this. SB said this is a lie, he never told them not to go national or post a reward.

Apparently, both Klein and SB are now trying to clear up a timeline of 3-4 hours ending with LE's arrival at the campground around 5pm.

Klein has a witness that has come forward with previously withheld information and SB said they have new leads.

DeOrr, Sr. (VDK's dad) said this is all a crock, his son (these kids) would never do anything to harm DeOrr and cast some dispersion against IR and GGP.

The naming of these 2 as suspects has caused a lot of folks to start talking but not saying much.

Klein said that when he told the family his conclusion, that DeOrr is deceased, they all broke down. They are all, naturally, unwilling to accept this.

 

[SweetT]

Yes, 1/2 a mile with a reason IIRC where I knew I could get reception or something similar, because I wondered how he knew that. It was in the beginning video (of course).

Right, did he drive until he got reception or did he already know where he could and couldnt get reception?

 

[scmom]

Good synopsis TeaTime.

 

[persimmon]

If a subject is on drugs, the test results could very likely be inconclusive. That is not to say that there wasn't extra activity on the reading of the main questions, but rather their body is so out of whack that they are showing reaction to very neutral questions. Meth would be a drug that would cause such an inconclusive result.

 

[SweetT]

When I did some quick googling, Rubicons appeared to have the same MSR as Camrys. But as you point out, options make a big difference.

My husband knows every car/truck etc I figured it was a guy thing. I have a Rubicon and it has big letters on each side of the hood stating such. Most do, so pretty easy to know a Rubicon vs a TJ or YJ etc. Sahara's are generally all one color where wranglers/rubicons have two toned colors. just fyi. Head light shapes also help determine the yr of the Jeep. I would not know all of this if not for my husband.

 

[SweetT]

If a subject is on drugs, the test results could very likely be inconclusive. That is not to say that there wasn't extra activity on the reading of the main questions, but rather their body is so out of whack that they are showing reaction to very neutral questions. Meth would be a drug that would cause such an inconclusive result.

Except it has been stated several times that drug use isn't an issue with them, and they were polyd like 4 times.

 

[Rayemonde]

Yes, good synopsis

I found Timber Creek Campsite on Google maps... If we assume that IR did see Deorr after the trip to the store, and Vernal hauled off to hide evidence, where does that leave us? How far could he have gone?

I assume he would have hidden the evidence just off the road somewhere, rather than hiking for miles... Did he use the shovel? Personally I don't think so, I think it was a red herring...

 

[persimmon]

Except it has been stated several times that drug use isn't an issue with them, and they were polyd like 4 times.

Where has it been stated that drug use wasn't an issue with them?

 

[pepelepolecat]

Where has it been stated that drug use wasn't an issue with them?

Klein said it, so you may take it with a grain of salt (or not) depending on where you fall on the pro-/anti-Klein sliding scale.

 

[scmom]

Here's a link that helps us understand what inconclusive means and how a testee can alter their responses.
http://www.missingpersonsofamerica.com/2015/07/what-does-inconclusive-mean-on.html

 

[ILOKAL]

I don't think the Sheriff is a poly expert, nor has he tried to be however he has given the public the gist in layman's terms and he was kind or humble enough that he didn't want to use the term "failed/lied" on certain questions.

Do you realize the are two different set of scores and the "hand score" is deemed better than the "computerized score." Do you think the Sheriff misread the FBI report? I feel totally confident the FBI is on top of things regarding polys and behavior analysis and have it covered.

No, I don't believe Bowerman misread the FBI report nor have I indicated such.

 

[MBK]

Yes, good synopsis

I found Timber Creek Campsite on Google maps... If we assume that IR did see Deorr after the trip to the store, and Vernal hauled off to hide evidence, where does that leave us? How far could he have gone?

I assume he would have hidden the evidence just off the road somewhere, rather than hiking for miles... Did he use the shovel? Personally I don't think so, I think it was a red herring...

Your concept of Google maps has given me an idea . . . having enjoyed "driving" through all kinds of places using Google (Earth) . . . I am wondering if it's possible to "drive" the route that the camping group took on Thursday night from their house/ town to the campsite . . . just kind of looking around at what's to the left and right . . to see what stores, buildings they passed . . which might have a camera . . and . just to get a sense of the area . . to see if it inspires any thoughts for sleuthing . ..

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Here's a link that helps us understand what inconclusive means and how a testee can alter their responses.
http://www.missingpersonsofamerica.com/2015/07/what-does-inconclusive-mean-on.html

Really interesting, thanks scmom. Here's a bit:

She also explained that an inconclusive result could be caused by someone that is confused by the question or their is a language confusion, or the testee is on drugs. (The defense that Hailey Dunn's mom, Billie Jean used when her's came back inconclusive-although she failed the second one.)

She also explained another reason results can be inconclusive is if the testee is trying different things to alter the results like moving too much or putting a tack in their shoe or contracting the anal sphincter, which is considered sabotage. The examiner would rule the person was being deceptive and therefore inconclusive. Trained examiners will pick up on deceptions.

 

[TeaTime]

If a subject is on drugs, the test results could very likely be inconclusive. That is not to say that there wasn't extra activity on the reading of the main questions, but rather their body is so out of whack that they are showing reaction to very neutral questions. Meth would be a drug that would cause such an inconclusive result.

I have friends that are polygraph examiners. They have told me that even someone on drugs can undergo the test. They simply establish a base line by asking innocuous questions such as 'is my shirt blue' (assume it is a blue shirt) or 'is your name Santa Claus' and having the respondent answer yes and no, this creating a baseline of physical responses despite the drugs. Of course, we were talking about things like muscle relaxers or Xanax. Whether meth would pose a unique problem I just do not know.

Sometimes, people are so nervous and anxiety filled that a truthful answer to "is your name John" creates an explosion on the graph and the test can not be administered at that time and will be re-scheduled.

 

[1&2&3]

SIMILARITIES BETWEEN WILLIAM TYRELL AND DEORR KUNZ

I have not followed William's case so today I read about it on the Blog. When the following post appeared, my brain kept saying "that is exactly like Deorr's story".

This is so obvious that Deorr's story originated from William's. Read it and see what you think.

"For those who haven't watched the interview with William's parents, here are some points:

* The family was visiting William's mother's place, and it was definitely a surprise visit, even for the kids.

* They had planned to leave on Friday, but left earlier, Thursday night.

* They stopped at McDonald's on the way.

* William had been playing only 2-3 metres from where his family had been sitting when he went missing. His mother heard nothing, saw nothing.

* It was extremely out of character for William to not respond when his mother called out. He didn't like to be too far away (on another note, I know a couple who recently took on a foster child and the child is extremely clingy towards them. He is never more than a few metres from them. They formed a close bond with him fairly quickly, so I can see how William and his carers became very close.)

* Mother immediately suspected abduction as William would never be tempted by a stranger, nor run into the thick bush. He was a cautious boy. He would always "check in" when playing.

* Mum can't believe he would be abducted by a Kendall local. The community is too small. Believes it was someone without a history in the community

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sho...-2014-7/page51"

*snipped the end as not relative*

Do you think SB or the PI have come across this comparison? It matches too closely to be a coincidence.

My opinions only.

 

[Eileen730]

If a subject is on drugs, the test results could very likely be inconclusive. That is not to say that there wasn't extra activity on the reading of the main questions, but rather their body is so out of whack that they are showing reaction to very neutral questions. Meth would be a drug that would cause such an inconclusive result.

They ask the person if they do drugs and when they last did them.
Same with alcohol.
They would then reschedule the test.

 

[Rayemonde]

Your concept of Google maps has given me an idea . . . having enjoyed "driving" through all kinds of places using Google (Earth) . . . I am wondering if it's possible to "drive" the route that the camping group took on Thursday night from their house/ town to the campsite . . . just kind of looking around at what's to the left and right . . to see what stores, buildings they passed . . which might have a camera . . and . just to get a sense of the area . . to see if it inspires any thoughts for sleuthing . ..

Good idea... And from the campground to the store, too...