ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #19

[haven71]

My impression is that she sounded resigned and distracted.

My first impression when I heard the 911 call is that she sounded more annoyed than panicked.


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[Lilibet]

My first impression when I heard the 911 call is that she sounded more annoyed than panicked.

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Interesting. I'd have to go back and listen to see if I detect annoyance. You could certainly be right. When I listened recently before they were named suspects, I heard her crying softly. She seemed to be trying to maintain control of herself, which I thought was smart. She may know how to talk to the 911 operator because of her job in health care. Getting hysterical doesn't help. The operator has questions to ask in a certain order. It is annoying if you just want to blurt it out and get emergency help quickly, but they'll get there faster if you cooperate. Whether I could be that calm if my child was missing, I don't know. Personally, I don't think this one call indicates anything in particular. The sum total of everything we've learned and discussed is what makes me lean toward thinking they both were involved in some way in what happened.
JMO

 

[Groundwork]

How do we know IR didn't have his bike with? Lots of people bring bikes camping. He seems pretty into it.

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I remember mom and dad were sitting on an ATV in one picture. Did they bring one along? I know some carry them in the back of their pickups. If they had an ATV, it opens up a lot of options during any time frame. Does anyone know?

 

[jnblsm]

I remember mom and dad were sitting on an ATV in one picture. Did they bring one along? I know some carry them in the back of their pickups. If they had an ATV, it opens up a lot of options during any time frame. Does anyone know?

We've discussed previously that DK's relative brought an ATV/4-wheeler to the campsite after Jr was missing. There hasn't been any clarity about him having one originally. Imo, I don't think so

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[Groundwork]

We've discussed previously that DK's relative brought an ATV/4-wheeler to the campsite after Jr was missing. There hasn't been any clarity about him having one originally. Imo, I don't think so

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Thank you...I have had to skip many pages over the past few months, so I am never 100% sure I'm not rehashing old stuff. I don't remember hearing anything about them having one, and it seems like that would have been pretty significant. It is really common, though, to take an ATV when camping in this area.

Anyway, thanks again.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I remember mom and dad were sitting on an ATV in one picture. Did they bring one along? I know some carry them in the back of their pickups. If they had an ATV, it opens up a lot of options during any time frame. Does anyone know?

 

[Aeronomy]

We've discussed previously that DK's relative brought an ATV/4-wheeler to the campsite after Jr was missing. There hasn't been any clarity about him having one originally. Imo, I don't think so

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Not that it confirms one way or another, but I noticed there was an ATV parked at the camping trailer during the reenactment done with Vilt.

 

[Aeronomy]

because god forbid you can't spare 20k to find your kid, right?

This just blows my mind! It has since Vilt made it known and even more when the sheriff stated he didn't tell them not to do the reward.

Even if Vilt wanted them to pay him back and they didn't have $20,000 sitting around - so what. I don't have that kind of money sitting around but if my son were missing I'd be damned sure I'd figure out a way to get the money even if it meant working my ass off for Vilt himself for the next 10 years. I can't think of any parent I know who wouldn't. IMHO, it's obvious they don't want their son back or at least know there's no way they're getting him back.

 

[mrjitty]

What parent would turn down someone offering a reward to find their missing child?

Sensible ones.

Law Enforcement themselves frequently discourage this approach as it can lead to a flurry of calls which waste the time of the investigation.

I've noticed since the absurdity of the McCann case in England that the police are much more careful with their media management in important missing persons cases (e.g Becky Watts)

The public are asked to help in focussed ways where crowd sourcing adds value.

 

[mrjitty]

Though I find the parents version suspicious since their first interview, I don't understand the love for the PIs

Both these guys seem like self promoters to me.

Why are they all over the media during an active investigation? A possible murder investigation?

 

[Lilibet]

Sensible ones.

Law Enforcement themselves frequently discourage this approach as it can lead to a flurry of calls which waste the time of the investigation.

I've noticed since the absurdity of the McCann case in England that the police are much more careful with their media management in important missing persons cases (e.g Becky Watts)

The public are asked to help in focussed ways where crowd sourcing adds value.

You are correct about LE generally discouraging large rewards. Bowerman was having a lot of trouble just tracking down SM rumors IIRC, so a large reward could have been counterproductive.

I think the problem is that Mr Vilt says the parents told him that LE didn't want a reward offered and Sheriff Bowerman just said that he didn't tell them that. It's hard to know if there was miscommunication or deception.

Again, this one action on the part of the parents isn't a definitive sign of guilt, but added in with other things it could be...or not. I don't think they've been named suspects because they didn't offer a reward. There's much more to it that we don't know about. JMO

 

[TeaTime]

I read somewhere that the ATV belonged to a brother in law.

There is no evidence that there were 2 trips to Leadore that day.

JM doesn't have an attorney yet because she doesn't need one. She hasn't been charged with anything and all an attorney can do for her is to be her mouthpiece which she doesn't need. VDK's lawyer isn't doing him any good, just wasting his retainer by giving statements to media. LE isn't going to share the first bit of info with him.

I can't get past IR saying that he saw the baby after they returned from Leadore, and am so stuck on the very narrow window of opportunity for these 2 to have harmed and then hidden their baby that I am again thinking he was abducted by a human or simply wandered away.

As for the polys, perhaps because they believe he wandered away and is still on the mountain somewhere their answers to 'do you know for certain where he is?' and "do you know for certain what happened to him?' came out hinkey. I don't know and no one else does either. They have nothing but hunches based on statistics and a huge amount of zero evidence.

Despite all the PI and LE statements, there is not a scintilla of evidence in support of those statements and therefore they amount to nothing but a hill of beans. Lots of talk but nothing else.

It wouldn't be the first time that law enforcement got it wrong. Even the FBI makes mistakes - after all it is only their opinion. None of them know with any degree of certainty what happened and they are now putting intense pressure on the parents because they have nothing else to go on except to hope to break the parents into a confession.

But, if they are innocent, LE will wait a long, long time for that.

There is zero evidence to support any theory and in fact the absence of evidence is what they are banking on. "We can't find him so you must have killed him and hidden him." Yuck.

 

[Aeronomy]

Despite all the PI and LE statements, there is not a scintilla of evidence in support of those statements and therefore they amount to nothing but a hill of beans. Lots of talk but nothing else.

Are you saying there is no evidence to support LE stating the parents have changed their stories and no evidence that they are being less than truthful?

 

[Aeronomy]

Sensible ones.

Law Enforcement themselves frequently discourage this approach as it can lead to a flurry of calls which waste the time of the investigation.

I've noticed since the absurdity of the McCann case in England that the police are much more careful with their media management in important missing persons cases (e.g Becky Watts)

The public are asked to help in focussed ways where crowd sourcing adds value.

I take a bit of offense to this since I do think I'm a rather sensible parent. If my child were believed to have been abducted and a month later there is nothing, then I do not see how a reward would cause a problem. I wouldn't care if LE had a flurry of calls, because one of those calls may just be the one that matters. I suppose some may see it as wasting time, but how do you explain that to a parent who is on the verge of a breakdown because their child is missing. LE never mentioned to them anything about it and I do not think they came to their senses and turned down the offer.

 

[Rayemonde]

Raymonde:

Please refer to posts 159,171,178,179, and 198.

My words have been totally twisted around and I feel like I am being mocked. There were statements pertaining to this "one hour" by both Klein and Bowerman. I didn't just make it up out of thin air.

<modsnip>

Oh, I know you didn't make it up, that's not what I meant at all. But IMO the suspects made it up to make IR look suspicious and point the blame away from themselves.

 

[Aeronomy]

Though I find the parents version suspicious since their first interview, I don't understand the love for the PIs

Both these guys seem like self promoters to me.

Why are they all over the media during an active investigation? A possible murder investigation?

I thought most PIs were self promoters. As far as them being all over the media, I don't know what to think. I think a lot of times when a family hires a PI we hear about bits and pieces of what's going on either through the family or media. I've noticed it in many cases. It's nothing new. This time however, the information from the PIs just happens to be leading right back to the family. I think they're doing what they'd normally do, it's just the information isn't what we would normally expect.

 

[mrjitty]

I take a bit of offense to this since I do think I'm a rather sensible parent. If my child were believed to have been abducted and a month later there is nothing, then I do not see how a reward would cause a problem. I wouldn't care if LE had a flurry of calls, because one of those calls may just be the one that matters. I suppose some may see it as wasting time, but how do you explain that to a parent who is on the verge of a breakdown because their child is missing. LE never mentioned to them anything about it and I do not think they came to their senses and turned down the offer.

I wasn't meaning to be offensive

Just noting that there are actually good reasons to say no to a reward.

I don't think it is indicative of guilt of itself - but perhaps in context Vilt might be correct.

Personally I think it is strange that Vilt and Klein are running to the media with facts that might be critical at trial.

 

[mrjitty]

I thought most PIs were self promoters. As far as them being all over the media, I don't know what to think. I think a lot of times when a family hires a PI we hear about bits and pieces of what's going on either through the family or media. I've noticed it in many cases. It's nothing new. This time however, the information from the PIs just happens to be leading right back to the family. I think they're doing what they'd normally do, it's just the information isn't what we would normally expect.

Often these PIs are counter productive and end up manufacturing public relations material for a false narrative.

In this case however - the use of PIs seem to have circled back around

 

[Rayemonde]

Often these PIs are counter productive and end up manufacturing public relations material for a false narrative.

In this case however - the use of PIs seem to have circled back around

Yes! It is very unusual that two PI's have apparently concluded that the parents know the truth about what happened to DeOrr... But personally, I am taking everything they say with a large pinch of salt. If the PI's were giving loads of interviews saying the parents are innocent victims I would also take it with a large pinch of salt.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes! It is very unusual that two PI's have apparently concluded that the parents know the truth about what happened to DeOrr... But personally, I am taking everything they say with a large pinch of salt. If the PI's were giving loads of interviews saying the parents are innocent victims I would also take it with a large pinch of salt.

I have wondered if the sheriff has decided to use the PIs to his own advantage here?

Clearly the sheriff can't go running to the media and shoot his mouth off.

But the PI's can do whatever they like - so maybe the sheriff has encouraged them - basically using them as voices to get out a new narrative of suspicion?

I am fairly convinced that the Sheriff is hoping all this media pressure will cause someone to break ranks