ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #19

[giagreen]

I can't think of any logical reason for a child to be wearing shoes that are three sizes too big. That's really big! They would have felt like clown shoes to him. How would they even stay on for a normal day, much less playing in the woods or near a rushing creek?

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That's really not that big in all reality. My son wears a size 5 and for his winter boots we had to buy him a size 8 and not only was that a logical thing for me to do considering a toddlers feet grows crazy fast but he walks fine in them and they are not like clown shoes on him. Boots are more narrow and harder to get wide little toddler feet into sometimes you have to buy them bigger. To me it wouldn't be very logical to buy a pair of shoes for your toddler that are not a few sizes to big or it'd be a waste of money. I guess everything is situational. But I will never understand why so many find his boots being to big so weird. Are me and the Kunz parents really the only ones to ever buy shoes too big for their toddler so they can grow into them? Because it sure feels like it but I know so many parents that actually do this. Not only do I buy shoes almost always to big for my son but I also let him wear his boots if he wants to because sometimes it's just not worth the tantrum he will throw to get his boots. Two year olds need choices.....keeping it simple the boots, shoes, shirts are a good starting point to give your toddler a sense of choice and independence.

 

[ILOKAL]

They might have been his older half-brother's boots and little Deorr insisted on wearing them because he thought they were "cool" in his little 2 1/2 year old brain. I remember my son being very opinionated about what he wore when he was that age. Some parents "choose their battles" and what a 2 year old chooses to wear is not one of the things they bother to fight about. IMO

ETA: I don't remember Klein saying anything about shoe size. Do you have a link for that?

I think it was in the Q&A's that were posted yesterday. I'll go look. But in the meantime, they are all posted on Page #48 of this thread.

 

[bessie]

They might have been his older half-brother's boots and little Deorr insisted on wearing them because he thought they were "cool" in his little 2 1/2 year old brain. I remember my son being very opinionated about what he wore when he was that age. Some parents "choose their battles" and what a 2 year old chooses to wear is not one of the things they bother to fight about. IMO

ETA: I don't remember Klein saying anything about shoe size. Do you have a link for that?

He did say they were three sizes too large. I'll look for the quote.

ITA with you about choosing battles, and allowing tots to make decisions about clothing choices and inconsequential matters.

ETA:
SK - My question is what shoe size is DeOrr and what size were his boots? I've never seen it asked or answered

Klein Investigations and Consulting The boots were three sizes larger than his foot.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...round-10-July-2015-19&p=12327999#post12327999

 

[ILOKAL]

They might have been his older half-brother's boots and little Deorr insisted on wearing them because he thought they were "cool" in his little 2 1/2 year old brain. I remember my son being very opinionated about what he wore when he was that age. Some parents "choose their battles" and what a 2 year old chooses to wear is not one of the things they bother to fight about. IMO

ETA: I don't remember Klein saying anything about shoe size. Do you have a link for that?

On Page 48 of this thread, second question down. A commenter stated DeOrr wore a Size 5 and the boots were a Size 7. Klein answered saying the boots were three sizes too big. If he counts 5, 6, 7 - he "could" be referring to three sizes.

 

[ILOKAL]

The way I remember it was that Vilt started talking to the media about offering a reward and within a few days the parents stopped cooperating with him. If anybody cared enough about the topic, we could probably go back into some of the media releases from that time and put together pretty much what happened.

The article link certainly does not say that the parents did not turn down the reward. Honestly, IMO it does not say much of anything.

There are articles dated 9-15-15 about the re-enactment that day that might also mention the reward. I'll go look.

Okay, here's some:

http://www.ktvb.com/news/deorr-kunz-missing-lead/24629517

http://www.people.com/article/social-media-controversy-over-missing-boy

<modsnip>

 

[giagreen]

It's still the story as far as the parents and IR are concerned. SB didn't confirm that information as absolute fact.

SB: Sure. You know basically we’ve tried to narrow the timeline down from the time they actually realized he was missing or when they claim that he was missing and they didn’t find him, and from that time period of when they searched and then when they called 911. We’ve been trying to narrow that timeline down.

SB: No, not exactly, but from the time that they’re saying he disappeared and until my office and Search & Rescue showed up, we have a 3-hour window, so there’s a lot of time in between to have something happen and when he possibly disappeared.

SB: The mother said that they got back at 1:10 p.m. Isaac doesn’t dispute that. He’s not watching a clock or a watch or anything of that sort, but he concurs that it was around that time period. They got back shortly after 1:00 p.m. The parents decide to go down to the creek to go fishing. Deorr remains behind. He’s not real privy to what the conversation was between grandpa and the parents, but he knows that just the three of them go down to the creek—Mom, Dad & Isaac.


I don't know whether or not they disagree. However, SB is telling us the story as related by the four adults. At the same time, without being specific, he lets us know that their stories don't add up. The parents have not been truthful in crucial areas of the questioning, and IR's account is inconsistent. So as a law enforcement official, being scrupulous and cautious, he is as you say, "holding back" to a certain extent, and rightfully so.

Klein, on the other hand, a private investigator, is flat out calling BS.

Being old school, I often find myself these days at odds with the public nature of private investigations. If he can assist in solving this tragedy without interfering in the judicial process, then so be it. Social media has spawned a new paradigm, I guess.

As for the expanding timeline, if I understand Klein correctly, that's based on information recently obtained from witnesses, like in the past week. I can buy that. Then there's the physical evidence that he says came about after SB's statement that there was none. Does anything stand out about this statement?

PGB - Mr Klein, you have stated that you have new physical evidence yet sheriff Bowerman said there is no physical evidence. Can you elaborate on this? Or was the evidence you referred to the polygraph information?

Klein Investigations and Consulting Again - from the time of that statement to the flux of the case daily - we have turned over items to the FBI and it is being looked at in Q Virginia. We will not comment on what that is.

I guess I'll just sit back and watch all this unfold. But I do worry that if these parents do go to trial they won't have a very fair trial with all this sm, pi, talk. I'm not a fan of this guilty till proven innocent stuff that seems to taking place. It pretty much goes against everything I believe in. And not only do I worry about them having a fair trial but it could also ruin DeOrr getting justice at all if they are in fact guilty.

 

[Mickshawn]

Is it just me or is the timeline as confusing as ever?!

4 minutes, 17, 40, 1 hour, 3 hours, 4 hours, and now over 6 hours...

Has anybody here got an actual clue what the heck is going on?!

What exactly is the definition of "Timeline"?Does it mean from the last confirmed sighting of D. alive and well to the 911 call? Or something else?

 

[ModernAudrey]

That's really not that big in all reality. My son wears a size 5 and for his winter boots we had to buy him a size 8 and not only was that a logical thing for me to do considering a toddlers feet grows crazy fast but he walks fine in them and they are not like clown shoes on him. Boots are more narrow and harder to get wide little toddler feet into sometimes you have to buy them bigger. To me it wouldn't be very logical to buy a pair of shoes for your toddler that are not a few sizes to big or it'd be a waste of money. I guess everything is situational. But I will never understand why so many find his boots being to big so weird. Are me and the Kunz parents really the only ones to ever buy shoes too big for their toddler so they can grow into them? Because it sure feels like it but I know so many parents that actually do this. Not only do I buy shoes almost always to big for my son but I also let him wear his boots if he wants to because sometimes it's just not worth the tantrum he will throw to get his boots. Two year olds need choices.....keeping it simple the boots, shoes, shirts are a good starting point to give your toddler a sense of choice and independence.

My son wears a larger size in boots than in regular shoes, so I guess I was reading the quote as in 3 sizes larger than he would normally wear in boots. It's just as likely he meant it the other way, though, so I see what you mean.

Maybe my little fellow just has narrow feet--we just have the one, so not much bssis for comparison--but either way three sizes too big would definitely be falling off of him. Don't get me wrong, I do buy larger sizes for him to grow into when possible, but he would be tripping all over the place in shoes that big. I am all for letting my little guy have some independence in what he wears, but I would draw the line at him stumbling around while camping near so many potential hazards, like the creek and fire. Again, perhaps this is a little more child specific, depending on foot width.

However, I'm beginning to think that Klein intended to say two sizes too big if he was wearing a 7 vs a 5. That would definitely be more reasonable.

 

[ILOKAL]

That's really not that big in all reality. My son wears a size 5 and for his winter boots we had to buy him a size 8 and not only was that a logical thing for me to do considering a toddlers feet grows crazy fast but he walks fine in them and they are not like clown shoes on him. Boots are more narrow and harder to get wide little toddler feet into sometimes you have to buy them bigger. To me it wouldn't be very logical to buy a pair of shoes for your toddler that are not a few sizes to big or it'd be a waste of money. I guess everything is situational. But I will never understand why so many find his boots being to big so weird. Are me and the Kunz parents really the only ones to ever buy shoes too big for their toddler so they can grow into them? Because it sure feels like it but I know so many parents that actually do this. Not only do I buy shoes almost always to big for my son but I also let him wear his boots if he wants to because sometimes it's just not worth the tantrum he will throw to get his boots. Two year olds need choices.....keeping it simple the boots, shoes, shirts are a good starting point to give your toddler a sense of choice and independence.

Rest assured, Gia, you and DeOrr's parents and me are NOT the only ones who buy our toddler shoes bigger than what they measure. Actually, I have found, that the shoe department sales personnel generally recommend it. I guess it's just a case of all those who DON'T buy their toddler (and other kids' too) shoes bigger also happen to be interested in this case. Funny how that works out.

 

[giagreen]

My son wears a larger size in boots than in regular shoes, so I guess I was reading the quote as in 3 sizes larger than he would normally wear in boots. It's just as likely he meant it the other way, though, so I see what you mean.

Maybe my little fellow just has narrow feet--we just have the one, so not much bssis for comparison--but either way three sizes too big would definitely be falling off of him. Don't get me wrong, I do buy larger sizes for him to grow into when possible, but he would be tripping all over the place in shoes that big. I am all for letting my little guy have some independence in what he wears, but I would draw the line at him stumbling around while camping near so many potential hazards, like the creek and fire. Again, perhaps this is a little more child specific, depending on foot width.

However, I'm beginning to think that Klein intended to say two sizes too big if he was wearing a 7 vs a 5. That would definitely be more reasonable.

The one thing I've learned here at ws from hearing other parents with toddlers talk about how they do things or how their toddler is compared to my toddler and how I do things is that it really is a hit or miss. Toddlers are all so different. I think the boots being too big sticks out to me because not long ago I bought my son a pair of new under armour shoes for like $50 (expensive for me being he will out grow them) And I bought them a size too big and still couldn't get his fat little foot in there. lol I had to take them back and get them a few more size bigger. His feet were to short for them yet they fit perfect because his feet were wide enough.
I don't know if DeOrr had wide feet or not but it's defiantly a possibility. And it's hard to say if Klein was mistaken. His answers were somewhat hard to read just based on the way fb is set up. I don't remember talk of boots with Klein before but I've been working so much lately I haven't had much time to follow along as much as I'd like.

 

[SweetT]

Okay, I have figured out a way that rambling interview with the parents makes some sense.

I am for the moment assuming something happened to little Deorr either the morning of the day he went missing or before. In that case, the parents had time to hide him and come up with the story of how he went "missing."

Instead of thinking of the big picture, the story they agreed to tell focused ONLY on the moments of his "disappearance." They didn't think to have a backstory, and so things get muffled and confused when they get out of their tight timeframe. They can't answer what they had for breakfast because they didn't write that into their script of what to say about the disappearance, for example.

They focused on the specific time of the 911 calls and the hour before the calls because that's all they wanted (or assumed) LE would ask about. They are lost with any other questions - and that might be why their stories don't match and they are inconsistent with what they are telling LE. They didn't plan beyond the "disappearace" time of 1:30'ish-2:36.

But parents of missing kids don't tell a story about the disappearance, they PLEAD for the child to be found. They plead, plead, plead.

They don't say, "Great job with the helicopter" when the child is still missing. In that interview, Vernal seems to be in storytelling mode, not providing any information that will actually help find the child.

JMO, speculating, opinions subject to change.

I agree, it would appear they spent the morning, getting rid of evidence and staging or what ever so can't say what they had for breakfast since they didn't eat, they didnt make up a story to cover the whole morning, just the few minutes leading up to Deorr going missing. Which would make for a lot of inconsistencies. Thats why I'd like to know what time frame going backwards are they back to being consistent in their stories (Not lying) Then you would have a better time frame of when something happened to Deorr.

 

[Rayemonde]

Did you guys see this? Jessica was selling kids camo boots a back in December 2014. She might have bought him the same boots again in a bigger size.

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...1019006801459538&source=48&ref=content_filter

of course, it might be besides the point now, because their description of what he was wearing when they last saw him might be more lies.

I got the impression they emphasised the size of his boots because they wanted to set up the abduction story - "he couldn't even walk on flat ground, so there's no way he wandered off into the wilderness by himself - he must have been abducted!" JMO.

 

[desert-blue]

Rest assured, Gia, you and DeOrr's parents and me are NOT the only ones who buy our toddler shoes bigger than what they measure. Actually, I have found, that the shoe department sales personnel generally recommend it. I guess it's just a case of all those who DON'T buy their toddler (and other kids' too) shoes bigger also happen to be interested in this case. Funny how that works out.

I have bought my kids shoes that were too big and I've let them wear entirely inappropriate footwear just to maintain peace. I don't have any issue with the boots that DeOrr was (supposedly) wearing (or the parental decision to let him wear them), other than the fact that they haven't been found, and neither has DeOrr. I think that's what people are most interested in. Just my opinion, of course...

 

[ILOKAL]

The one thing I've learned here at ws from hearing other parents with toddlers talk about how they do things or how their toddler is compared to my toddler and how I do things is that it really is a hit or miss. Toddlers are all so different. I think the boots being too big sticks out to me because not long ago I bought my son a pair of new under armour shoes for like $50 (expensive for me being he will out grow them) And I bought them a size too big and still couldn't get his fat little foot in there. lol I had to take them back and get them a few more size bigger. His feet were to short for them yet they fit perfect because his feet were wide enough.
I don't know if DeOrr had wide feet or not but it's defiantly a possibility. And it's hard to say if Klein was mistaken. His answers were somewhat hard to read just based on the way fb is set up. I don't remember talk of boots with Klein before but I've been working so much lately I haven't had much time to follow along as much as I'd like.

Our youngest grandson turned two the end of July at which time he measured a size 6. He is of average height and weight but has wide, pudgy feet. He cannot wear Nikes as they run narrow. We took him to Target and I swear, we couldn't even BEGIN to get any of the shoe styles we liked on his feet. Finally, my husband found a pair of slip-on boating type shoes with two Velcro fasteners that were kind of cute. We couldn't get the 6 or 7 on his foot but the size 8 worked perfectly. We learned from this experience. Although some stores sell Toddler size shoes in a wide width, they are far and few between, so we end up having to buy two sizes larger than he measures, but it works. They don't slip off nor does he walk out of them. FWIW, he now measures a size 8.

 

[ModernAudrey]

The one thing I've learned here at ws from hearing other parents with toddlers talk about how they do things or how their toddler is compared to my toddler and how I do things is that it really is a hit or miss. Toddlers are all so different. I think the boots being too big sticks out to me because not long ago I bought my son a pair of new under armour shoes for like $50 (expensive for me being he will out grow them) And I bought them a size too big and still couldn't get his fat little foot in there. lol I had to take them back and get them a few more size bigger. His feet were to short for them yet they fit perfect because his feet were wide enough.
I don't know if DeOrr had wide feet or not but it's defiantly a possibility. And it's hard to say if Klein was mistaken. His answers were somewhat hard to read just based on the way fb is set up. I don't remember talk of boots with Klein before but I've been working so much lately I haven't had much time to follow along as much as I'd like.

That is so true. I can't understand why some parents won't accept that children are not 'one size fits all!' Different children are going to have different needs, whether it's clothing or anything else. I think we're all just so used to seeing red flags in this case, random things are taking on a higher significance than they actually should. I'm sure that if we heard about DeOrr having a history of crying in public, we would all be going 'ah-ha!', when in all reality what could be more normal than a baby crying.

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[SweetT]

Did you guys see this? Jessica was selling kids camo boots a back in December 2014. She might have bought him the same boots again in a bigger size.

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...1019006801459538&source=48&ref=content_filter

of course, it might be besides the point now, because their description of what he was wearing when they last saw him might be more lies.

I got the impression they emphasised the size of his boots because they wanted to set up the abduction story - "he couldn't even walk on flat ground, so there's no way he wandered off into the wilderness by himself - he must have been abducted!" JMO.

Good point, who really knows what he was wearing when he went "Missing" He may have been naked for all we know.

 

[giagreen]

Did you guys see this? Jessica was selling kids camo boots a back in December 2014. She might have bought him the same boots again in a bigger size.

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...1019006801459538&source=48&ref=content_filter

of course, it might be besides the point now, because their description of what he was wearing when they last saw him might be more lies.

I got the impression they emphasised the size of his boots because they wanted to set up the abduction story - "he couldn't even walk on flat ground, so there's no way he wandered off into the wilderness by himself - he must have been abducted!" JMO.

If I am understanding the post right...the camo boots she was selling where a size two? I don't think I can even remember when my son was in a size two. I think he was like 12months give or take.

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[giagreen]

Rest assured, Gia, you and DeOrr's parents and me are NOT the only ones who buy our toddler shoes bigger than what they measure. Actually, I have found, that the shoe department sales personnel generally recommend it. I guess it's just a case of all those who DON'T buy their toddler (and other kids' too) shoes bigger also happen to be interested in this case. Funny how that works out.

Lol okay!!! Good! Because between not knowing exactly how tall my son is, feeding him potato wedges, and buying him boots to big was starting to make me a bit defensive. Lol jk

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[renarde]

I wonder if one of the witnesses might have been the owner of the Silver Dollar, RC. She was also featured in one of the TV news stories and has an interesting past.

It would seem she (and the regulars) would remember and might get to know everyone who came through her restaurant.

 

[pepelepolecat]

That's really not that big in all reality. My son wears a size 5 and for his winter boots we had to buy him a size 8 and not only was that a logical thing for me to do considering a toddlers feet grows crazy fast but he walks fine in them and they are not like clown shoes on him. Boots are more narrow and harder to get wide little toddler feet into sometimes you have to buy them bigger. To me it wouldn't be very logical to buy a pair of shoes for your toddler that are not a few sizes to big or it'd be a waste of money. I guess everything is situational. But I will never understand why so many find his boots being to big so weird. Are me and the Kunz parents really the only ones to ever buy shoes too big for their toddler so they can grow into them? Because it sure feels like it but I know so many parents that actually do this. Not only do I buy shoes almost always to big for my son but I also let him wear his boots if he wants to because sometimes it's just not worth the tantrum he will throw to get his boots. Two year olds need choices.....keeping it simple the boots, shoes, shirts are a good starting point to give your toddler a sense of choice and independence.

No, I know lots of people who buy too-big shoes, but our pediatrician told us it's really bad for their feet. They can be trip hazards and cause blisters, so it's not something we ever did (particularly since two of our kids have serious skin problems as it is -- we didn't need more skin problems from shoes).

I think the scenario listed above (ClaireNC mentioned it) about him wanting to wear big brother's shoes is also a likely scenario -- just because I have boys who are always wanting to wear each others' things, lol. And I also fall into the "pick your battles" category.

all moo