ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

[ReadySet]

OT:
I've almost posted this several times, but keep hesitating, because I don't want the thread to get derailed. But I know that some here are really fascinated by the critters, they really are interesting, and this video is so cute. I can't tell others how to post, but...I'm posting this as OT! This is such an interesting article and video. By the way, this is down in Preston, Idaho (of Napolean Dynamite fame) on the Idaho/Utah border.

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_a2b037d3-9380-51f2-ad6c-4f527282b94f.html

 

[Mickshawn]

I disagree, Rabbit. That would indicate whatever happened occurred between 9:30 p.m. Thursday and 8:00 a.m. Friday, and the "whatever happened" is then left out of the timeline.

Here's what Klein said in the Q & A:

KIC: Very good question. We answered that in one of the many interviews - and I will got over it again. When we first started this case we thought we had the timeline down pretty tight - however - now we have four more witnesses that open the timeline to an extended period. That timeline is now 8 a.m. to 2:26 pm.
February 2 at 12:33pm

https://www.facebook.com/bellasfriendsuamc/posts/1688440941411392

The 8:00 a.m. witness is not IR, imo.

So what he and you are saying is that the last person to see DeOrr was 8 a.m. Friday morning, right? But.....it still doesn't indicate his wellness state (I know you said "alive")...Does that matter for the timeline starting at 8 a.m.? Or just somebody's eyeballs on him is what it means?

 

[renarde]

So what he and you are saying is that the last person to see DeOrr was 8 a.m. Friday morning, right? But.....it still doesn't indicate his wellness state (I know you said "alive")...Does that matter for the timeline starting at 8 a.m.? Or just somebody's eyeballs on him is what it means?

Time last seen, last known alive... 8 a.m.?

We don't know where or by whom.

 

[ClaireNC]

And where is JM living: at her great grandfather's house and cares for him or at Deorr Kunz Sr.Sr.'s house and cares for little Deorr ....?
I think, I'm a little bit overstretched with the constellations and the infos I got (not yours!).

Actually, I don't think we know where they were all living at the time he disappeared. The paternal grandfather said that they lived with him for the past year. He did not say where they were living in July. There have been some rumors that they had moved just prior to him disappearing. And there were rumors that they were living with the GGP so she could take care of him. As far as we know VDK, JM and baby Deorr were all living together, we just don't know where.

 

[haven71]

Interesting info on inconclusive polygraphs:

For police agencies that utilize the polygraph as an investigative tool, there is always that nagging question as to why was I informed that the suspect’s results were inconclusive. What does that term really mean? Does it mean that the suspect sort of told the truth and sort of told some lies? Can I eliminate him as a suspect? Is he leaning towards being deceptive or nondeceptive?

Well, the answers to those questions are “No”. Just because an individual’s test results were rendered as “Inconclusive” or “No Opinion” doesn’t mean that the individual is lying or telling the truth. In fact the examinee may be doing some of both. As an investigator, you must remember, the examinee knows whether or not they were involved in case that is under investigation. It is us who are not sure of their potential involvement. It is the examiner who conducted the test who is “Inconclusive”

There are several factors that could cause the results of a polygraph examination to be rendered as “Inconclusive”. Some of these factors include improper question formulation based on bad case facts. The lack of fear by the examinee of getting caught in a lie is sometimes a reason for this result. The issue of little or no consequences is another contributing factor that has to be addressed. It is the job of the examiner to establish the proper psychological set for the polygraph examination. It is also the job of the examiner to determine what the best questions for that particular test are. Questions that are compound or ambiguous often create confusion in the mind of the examinee as to which part of that question pose the most danger to their overall well being.

In order to avoid “Inconclusive” test results, the examiner must understand the case facts in order to develop the best possible questions for this exam. But when all is said and done, there is still the possibility of the test being rendered as “Inconclusive”. This opinion is generally rendered in about 6-10% of cases however when a second test is administered, and examiner is able to render an opinion of No Deception Indicated or Deception Indicated in about 90% of those cases.

In conclusion, if you will be using the polygraph instrument as an investigative tool, provide your examiner with all of the possible data available. Inform your examiner so that in return, they can assist and inform you.

http://patc.com/weeklyarticles/polygraph.shtml

 

[renarde]

Actually, I don't think we know where they were all living at the time he disappeared. The paternal grandfather said that they lived with him for the past year. He did not say where they were living in July. There have been some rumors that they had moved just prior to him disappearing. And there were rumors that they were living with the GGP so she could take care of him. As far as we know VDK, JM and baby Deorr were all living together, we just don't know where.

Were they living with DeOrr's paternal grandfather in Montpelier? And didn't the GGF live in Idaho Falls, which is two hours away from Montpelier? Not sure how JM could be a regular caregiver to someone who lived two hours away...

 

[bessie]

So what he and you are saying is that the last person to see DeOrr was 8 a.m. Friday morning, right? But.....it still doesn't indicate his wellness state (I know you said "alive")...Does that matter for the timeline starting at 8 a.m.? Or just somebody's eyeballs on him is what it means?

My point was that a timeline would begin when the person was last known to be alive and well. So if the last established sighting was at 9:30 Thursday night, as was suggested, the timeline should begin then, and not at 8:00 a.m. Friday.

Only Mr. Klein or LE can answer to the specifics. Obviously, a witness observed something significant at 8:00 a.m. If Klein is starting his timeline at that point, then yes, I think that would include an alive DeOrr. However, since Klein is working backward to establish the timeline, it is possible that he's only part of the way to the starting point, and hasn't reached the time last seen alive and well.

 

[Lilibet]

OT:
I've almost posted this several times, but keep hesitating, because I don't want the thread to get derailed. But I know that some here are really fascinated by the critters, they really are interesting, and this video is so cute. I can't tell others how to post, but...I'm posting this as OT! This is such an interesting article and video. By the way, this is down in Preston, Idaho (of Napolean Dynamite fame) on the Idaho/Utah border.

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_a2b037d3-9380-51f2-ad6c-4f527282b94f.html

Awwwwwwwww....thanks! Such beautiful babies.

 

[OSpyder]

My point was that a timeline would begin when the person was last known to be alive and well. So if the last established sighting was at 9:30 Thursday night, as was suggested, the timeline should begin then, and not at 8:00 a.m. Friday.

Only Mr. Klein or LE can answer to the specifics. Obviously, a witness observed something significant at 8:00 a.m. If Klein is starting his timeline at that point, then yes, I think that would include an alive DeOrr. However, since Klein is working backward to establish the timeline, it is possible that he's only part of the way to the starting point, and hasn't reached the time last seen alive and well.

But just curious unless I missed something- if he were, in fact, working backwards on his timeline, wouldn't it be premature of him to disclose to the public that some or all of the adults were at the Silver Dollar on Thursday night if it is "inside the timeline" but "outside of prosecutorial questions" if there are "no" sightings of Deorr?

 

[Hatfield]

So what he and you are saying is that the last person to see DeOrr was 8 a.m. Friday morning, right? But.....it still doesn't indicate his wellness state (I know you said "alive")...Does that matter for the timeline starting at 8 a.m.? Or just somebody's eyeballs on him is what it means?

Jumping in here because this is where I continue to struggle.

I wish I could get comfortable that some witness saw the boy in an alive state at all that weekend near the campground.

I know Klein has now said there are 4 more witnesses that saw some things and he mentioned the timeline now goes back to 8 AM. I am just not comfortable yet in saying that it means they saw the boy in alive state or even saw the boy at all. I think its possible they may have seen one or more of the campers beginning at 8 AM that Friday morning but just not comfortable yet it means they saw an alive boy.

Maybe they saw one of the campers arriving somewhere else besides the campground driving the black truck or something along those lines.

I suppose I keep going back to the possibility that the whole trip was used to coverup the boys death that may have happened back wherever they were living. Maybe something bad happened Wednesday or even Tuesday and maybe the whole trip was planned as a scheme to coverup whatever happened.

And if something like that was planned here is something else to consider. If we assume the whole trip was a sinister coverup plan then it would not take very much to make a witness think they saw an alive boy sitting in the truck in the carseat.

Lets hope the 4 additional witnesses were able to help LE a lot with things.

 

[haven71]

I may be a little slow, but I keep thinking WHO were the witnesses to last see Deorr alive? In my head, I'm picturing the campsite, wondering who would be in the area and stuff.

But that 8 am sighting could be ANYWHERE. And not necessarily a place of business either (stage shop, silver dollar, etc). I would think it would have been at a "stop"...whether that be in public, or pulled over on the side of the road (far away from the campground for all we know).

Seems like the more we learn, the less we know.

:banghead:

 

[desert-blue]

Maybe there is nothing up there to find? Since we don't know the last time little Deorr was seen....where he might be is no longer confined to the campground area, correct?

True. I just meant the general area, not the campground specifically. I guess I'm being led by the statements of "on or near the mountain" and a timeline of 8:00 AM to 2:30 PM. Phone pings could be useful.

I'm still confused about whether he was even on the trip, with the lack of any reliable sightings (or at least an unwillingness to share that knowledge).... ugh

 

[white rabbit]

agree to disagree to agree, Bessie and mick...lol...does that exist?

IF there's a timeline that LE/vilt/klein agree upon, the adults left the restaurant/bar and drove to the campsite on the evening of thursday, july 9th. big IF IMO...the only way klein would come up with an 8am (Friday, july 10th) "start" to the timeline is if one or more of the adults said they woke up and saw/didn't see little deorr. none of this is fact, I'm just trying to create a timeline in the absence of one.

that's where I'm coming from...for now...

 

[kammiemc]

I may be a little slow, but I keep thinking WHO were the witnesses to last see Deorr alive? In my head, I'm picturing the campsite, wondering who would be in the area and stuff.

But that 8 am sighting could be ANYWHERE. And not necessarily a place of business either (stage shop, silver dollar, etc). I would think it would have been at a "stop"...whether that be in public, or pulled over on the side of the road (far away from the campground for all we know).

Seems like the more we learn, the less we know.

:banghead:

Did anyone say there was 8 AM sighting of DeOrr? I am so confused because I thought Klein basically said there is no last sighting of DeOrr that can be confirmed. So I assumed that the 8 AM must have had something to do with someone (or video) seeing the truck away from the campsite. There definitely is a cam on the highway nearby! Or I guess maybe IR or GGP, or even the parents, could have given some indication that the child was taken away at 8 AM. I would not all be surprised if I am not understanding, because this is pretty confusing!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[haven71]

Jumping in here because this is where I continue to struggle.

I wish I could get comfortable that some witness saw the boy in an alive state at all that weekend near the campground.

I know Klein has now said there are 4 more witnesses that saw some things and he mentioned the timeline now goes back to 8 AM. I am just not comfortable yet in saying that it means they saw the boy in alive state or even saw the boy at all. I think its possible they may have seen one or more of the campers beginning at 8 AM that Friday morning but just not comfortable yet it means they saw an alive boy.

Maybe they saw one of the campers arriving somewhere else besides the campground driving the black truck or something along those lines.

I suppose I keep going back to the possibility that the whole trip was used to coverup the boys death that may have happened back wherever they were living. Maybe something bad happened Wednesday or even Tuesday and maybe the whole trip was planned as a scheme to coverup whatever happened.

And if something like that was planned here is something else to consider. If we assume the whole trip was a sinister coverup plan then it would not take very much to make a witness think they saw an alive boy sitting in the truck in the carseat.

Lets hope the 4 additional witnesses were able to help LE a lot with things.

The thought of that (Deorr "propped" up in his carseat) makes me physically ill. It's so hard to wrap my head around that. Not saying it didn't happen, but if it did, and a cover-up happened, it certainly is possible.

I have doubts that all the POI's planned the trip as a coverup. If that's the case, GGP and IR are in on it too, and should be named as suspects (IR was called out by Klein about changing stories or facts). The only thing that makes me remotely think that it could be a coverup is the fact that none of the 4 are talking. Nobody is ratting anybody out. Yet, those two are still only POI's. IR has "direct knowledge" according to Klein. I believe he said that during the Q and A discussion the other day that IR has direct knowledge, and 4 new witnesses have come forth setting the timeline in motion at 8:00 am.

I can't imagine GGP and IR being duped if Deorr had already passed away. But at the same time, I cannot for the life of me figure out how and why Deorr could've been killed in the presence of all of them. Remember (even though it may be a lie now) that JM and Deorr Sr. said the campout is the first time they met IR. And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't GGP plan the trip? Yet, Deorr Sr 'called in sick" to his job. It seems like if the camping trip was planned in advance, he simply could've asked for the day off. The fact he lied makes it all the more suspicious.

Just thinking out loud...

 

[TxJan1971]

Hmmm.....

January 11th, 2016 Q & A's by Klein

RHF: WHERE and WHO was the last person, OTHER THAN THE FOUR CAMPING, to see Deorr Jr. alive?
9 • January 11 at 12:01pm


Klein Investigations and Consulting As I cannot answer specifics regarding evidence that we have - the public statements of the four that LE has given the public would be correct.
2 • January 11 at 12:02pm

 

[desert-blue]

I disagree, Rabbit. That would indicate whatever happened occurred between 9:30 p.m. Thursday and 8:00 a.m. Friday, and the "whatever happened" is then left out of the timeline.

Here's what Klein said in the Q & A:

KIC: Very good question. We answered that in one of the many interviews - and I will got over it again. When we first started this case we thought we had the timeline down pretty tight - however - now we have four more witnesses that open the timeline to an extended period. That timeline is now 8 a.m. to 2:26 pm.
February 2 at 12:33pm

https://www.facebook.com/bellasfriendsuamc/posts/1688440941411392

The 8:00 a.m. witness is not IR, imo.

So, do you believe that there is a reliable sighting of DeOrr at 8:00 AM? Maybe the witness that came forward but wanted to remain unknown? That's what it seems from the current timeline, but it doesn't go along with Klein saying no one (other than the four POI's) ever saw him for sure... so confusing.

ETA: and it doesn't seem like there is convincing evidence even that all of the POI's actually saw DeOrr either... which is very odd to me.

 

[white rabbit]

no, and no, IMO there was no deorr sighting at 8am. not unlike other cases, IMO, the parents/witnesses/accompianers on their particular trysts simply "woke up and the child was gone".

again, JMO, according to klein and SB, stories changed. so SB being very (as he should be) politically correct, and klein (as he shouldn't be) being politically unbiased, disagree on the "timeline" of the "crimeline".

IMO after the evening of the 9th, at least two of the four campers have little recollection of the day of the 10th.

 

[haven71]

Hmmm.....

January 11th, 2016 Q & A's by Klein

RHF: WHERE and WHO was the last person, OTHER THAN THE FOUR CAMPING, to see Deorr Jr. alive?
9 • January 11 at 12:01pm


Klein Investigations and Consulting As I cannot answer specifics regarding evidence that we have - the public statements of the four that LE has given the public would be correct.
2 • January 11 at 12:02pm

Is he saying that the public statements of the four is/are the last to see Deorr Jr alive? The 4 POI's? I'm getting so confused. I'm tired but this case keeps me up at night.

 

[persimmon]

But is there enough evidence. Is it any good? I have always felt the parents were responsible but what has the analysis of the evidence revealed? we know the polys were less than truthful in parts... we know know the FBI wasnt pleased with the behavioral analysis. Is there blood... sightings.. hairs, dna, bad reports from pediatricians.. a child who no one saw for days before the camping trip? Polys arent admissable in court. What else do they have and can a jury be persuaded?

I am just trying to be realistic.. as this has unfolded the entire thing sounds like a myth. jmo

How do we know definitively that DeOrr was not seen for days prior to the camping trip? They lived with VDK's father, so it would stand to reason he saw him. I don't think we can take PI statement so literally. His answers were rather cryptic overall so I'm not comfortable taking them as 100 %.

Jmo....but I guess time will tell.