ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

[ClaireNC]

Were they living with DeOrr's paternal grandfather in Montpelier? And didn't the GGF live in Idaho Falls, which is two hours away from Montpelier? Not sure how JM could be a regular caregiver to someone who lived two hours away...

Was it ever confirmed that JM was a regular caregiver to GGP? DeOrr's paternal grandfather said in an interview with HLN many months ago that they lived with him during the past year. That is what started this line of discussion. It is the assumption that they moved from the paternal grandfather's house at some point and were living somewhere in Idaho Falls, but we don't really know for sure.

 

[neesaki]

This is a bit eyebrow raising.

VG and JT asked on the visitor posts section of the KIC Facebook page:

Was deorr with his family at Silver Dollar restaurant on July 9th? If so did he seem in good health and spirit's?

KIC: This goes to timeline therefore we cannot answer.

I don't understand how it isn't timeline re: Any/all adults but is re: Deorr Jr?

I think it is within TOS to post this mods? Sorry if not....:blushing:

I was thinking of this very thing earlier today. Because in the answer he gave regarding if the parents were there at the bar / restaurant, he didn't mention or state anything about Deorr.

In his answer he only stated that it was in the timeline, but it did not go toward the prosecution's case, so, 'Yes, they (the parents) were there'. (paraphrased).

Now according to this latest question / answer here that you just posted, Deorr being there and the condition that he was in is also part of the timeline, but it apparently does go towards the prosecution's case. Thus, he cannot answer. I hope this makes sense, but that's what I get from it as confusing as it seems. jmo

Just to add, I still keep thinking this is when / where someone witnessed this 'filthy, bawling' boy with a man in a black truck. jmo

 

[Cricket99]

OT:
I've almost posted this several times, but keep hesitating, because I don't want the thread to get derailed. But I know that some here are really fascinated by the critters, they really are interesting, and this video is so cute. I can't tell others how to post, but...I'm posting this as OT! This is such an interesting article and video. By the way, this is down in Preston, Idaho (of Napolean Dynamite fame) on the Idaho/Utah border.

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_a2b037d3-9380-51f2-ad6c-4f527282b94f.html

Thank you - that is amazing - just like the bear cub who walked in someones house through the doggie door!! We have a "Cougar Mountain" in Idaho also.

 

[Hatfield]

The thought of that (Deorr "propped" up in his carseat) makes me physically ill. It's so hard to wrap my head around that. Not saying it didn't happen, but if it did, and a cover-up happened, it certainly is possible.

I have doubts that all the POI's planned the trip as a coverup. If that's the case, GGP and IR are in on it too, and should be named as suspects (IR was called out by Klein about changing stories or facts). The only thing that makes me remotely think that it could be a coverup is the fact that none of the 4 are talking. Nobody is ratting anybody out. Yet, those two are still only POI's. IR has "direct knowledge" according to Klein. I believe he said that during the Q and A discussion the other day that IR has direct knowledge, and 4 new witnesses have come forth setting the timeline in motion at 8:00 am.

I can't imagine GGP and IR being duped if Deorr had already passed away. But at the same time, I cannot for the life of me figure out how and why Deorr could've been killed in the presence of all of them. Remember (even though it may be a lie now) that JM and Deorr Sr. said the campout is the first time they met IR. And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't GGP plan the trip? Yet, Deorr Sr 'called in sick" to his job. It seems like if the camping trip was planned in advance, he simply could've asked for the day off. The fact he lied makes it all the more suspicious.

Just thinking out loud...

You are definitely touching on some of the same things I struggle with. But with the lack of a solid witness claiming they definitely saw an alive walking boy that weekend I keep going back to the possibility the whole trip was a sinister coverup. And I do think its possible that IR and GGP may have been initially duped into thinking the boy was alive too.

The whole trip seemed like a rushed trip with very little planning which makes me really think the whole trip may have been a ploy for alternate reasons. I don't think IR + GGP realized they were part of this plan until they may have figured things out much later and for whatever reason may have decided to help the parents by just not saying what they suspect.

Just throwing out a possible scenario to see how it could have happened.

Lets suppose something happened at home with just the parents and the boy. Those 2 come up with the plan to make it look like he goes missing in the woods while camping. They get ready to go and realize that suspicion would immediately be thrown upon them but if there were others there with them, then maybe not. So they invite GGP to go along with them and lets suppose he decides to invite IR too. They drive separate vehicles and so the whole way down there the carseat/sleeping boy would have not garnered much attention from GGP and IR since they were excited to go on the camping trip.

I think it could have fairly easily fooled GGP and IR at first using "needing nap" or "napping" but at some point they most likely realized what was happening and maybe just decided to go along with the story.

I guess I am at the point that until a witness says they saw a walking or crawling baby boy then I am not convinced he was even alive before they headed out from home area. Even witnesses that may have seen a carseat in the truck is not good enough for me at this point.

I think back to Johnny Knoxville and those crazy stunts he pulled with strollers and the like.

 

[TxJan1971]

Was it ever confirmed that JM was a regular caregiver to GGP? DeOrr's paternal grandfather said in an interview with HLN many months ago that they lived with him during the past year. That is what started this line of discussion. It is the assumption that they moved from the paternal grandfather's house at some point and were living somewhere in Idaho Falls, but we don't really know for sure.

To my knowledge, I haven't seen anything in MSM about JM taking care of her GGP or living with him. I have read FB comments where it has been suggested that she was caring for him, but I can't recall anything about their living situation other than what is stated below.

Here it says they lived with DK Sr's dad for a year and a half:

“They've lived with me in my house for the past year and a half and he's my buddy. When he wants to take a nap he'll come up to me and say 'nap papa, nap papa,' so we'd lay down and take a nap. I’m so attached to him. I don't know what I'd do if we lost him. I just can't imagine going day to day without that little boy running around. I’m so sad. I’m just at a loss here.”
http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07/17/deorr-kunz-missing-family-fear-abducted

 

[haven71]

About that black truck...

AFAIK there were no sightings of a black truck except for at the diesel station or possibly the stage shop? (Now, I wonder about at the Silver Dollar too). I mean, was it confirmed or denied that another black truck was in the area at the time.

Here's my personal little theory about that (lol). When DK sr said "that's the problem, *I* drive a black truck!" was put out there to confuse the public about the places his truck and the other truck went and where they were or were not seen. "Well, we saw a black truck but..." you get the idea.

 

[KayCherry]

i believe it this way as well, i have thought the same thing.

You are definitely touching on some of the same things I struggle with. But with the lack of a solid witness claiming they definitely saw an alive walking boy that weekend I keep going back to the possibility the whole trip was a sinister coverup. And I do think its possible that IR and GGP may have been initially duped into thinking the boy was alive too.

The whole trip seemed like a rushed trip with very little planning which makes me really think the whole trip may have been a ploy for alternate reasons. I don't think IR + GGP realized they were part of this plan until they may have figured things out much later and for whatever reason may have decided to help the parents by just not saying what they suspect.

Just throwing out a possible scenario to see how it could have happened.

Lets suppose something happened at home with just the parents and the boy. Those 2 come up with the plan to make it look like he goes missing in the woods while camping. They get ready to go and realize that suspicion would immediately be thrown upon them but if there were others there with them, then maybe not. So they invite GGP to go along with them and lets suppose he decides to invite IR too. They drive separate vehicles and so the whole way down there the carseat/sleeping boy would have not garnered much attention from GGP and IR since they were excited to go on the camping trip.

I think it could have fairly easily fooled GGP and IR at first using "needing nap" or "napping" but at some point they most likely realized what was happening and maybe just decided to go along with the story.

I guess I am at the point that until a witness says they saw a walking or crawling baby boy then I am not convinced he was even alive before they headed out from home area. Even witnesses that may have seen a carseat in the truck is not good enough for me at this point.

I think back to Johnny Knoxville and those crazy stunts he pulled with strollers and the like.

 

[haven71]

Hey, I know who the new 4 witnesses are! The truth serum was given to the 4 POI's...

Wishful thinking.

 

[persimmon]

You are definitely touching on some of the same things I struggle with. But with the lack of a solid witness claiming they definitely saw an alive walking boy that weekend I keep going back to the possibility the whole trip was a sinister coverup. And I do think its possible that IR and GGP may have been initially duped into thinking the boy was alive too.

The whole trip seemed like a rushed trip with very little planning which makes me really think the whole trip may have been a ploy for alternate reasons. I don't think IR + GGP realized they were part of this plan until they may have figured things out much later and for whatever reason may have decided to help the parents by just not saying what they suspect.

Just throwing out a possible scenario to see how it could have happened.

Lets suppose something happened at home with just the parents and the boy. Those 2 come up with the plan to make it look like he goes missing in the woods while camping. They get ready to go and realize that suspicion would immediately be thrown upon them but if there were others there with them, then maybe not. So they invite GGP to go along with them and lets suppose he decides to invite IR too. They drive separate vehicles and so the whole way down there the carseat/sleeping boy would have not garnered much attention from GGP and IR since they were excited to go on the camping trip.

I think it could have fairly easily fooled GGP and IR at first using "needing nap" or "napping" but at some point they most likely realized what was happening and maybe just decided to go along with the story.

I guess I am at the point that until a witness says they saw a walking or crawling baby boy then I am not convinced he was even alive before they headed out from home area. Even witnesses that may have seen a carseat in the truck is not good enough for me at this point.

I think back to Johnny Knoxville and those crazy stunts he pulled with strollers and the like.

However, IR and GGF then directly lied to LE and IR to the public by saying they saw DeOrr playing etc at the campsight. Why would IR go along with such a sinister coverup then turn around and seek counsel in the way a person who has experience with the judicial system does. He understands the ramifications of what you say being used against you....he's cautious as such. Could he really be talked into covering up a crime for two people he doesnt even know? I dont believe GGF would go along with anything so crazy either.

DeOrr is a toddler so it would be much more difficult to pull off sleeping baby. I just cannot see duping two adults like that, whether they may have some challenges or not. Also, if something happened prior to the trip and as some seem to suggest they propped DeOrr up in his carseat....dogs would have alerted on that. Jmo

 

[kshultz06082]

Respectfully, "quizzed" and "bullied" are two entirely different things, IMO!

I am very curious what you think happened....


I don't understand what is up here.

 

[Rayemonde]

I also found it rather queer that they didn't publicly campaign on TV, radio, etc. furiously to appeal to the supposed abductors to bring their toddler home. IIRC, there were just two TV interviews and they became pretty scarce after that. This is contradictory IMO to how missing children parents typically act. It just makes no sense to me, which is why I'm wondering if I missed something where they changed their theory.

Fwiw, this is what the grandmother said about that:

DeOrr’s family said the past eight weeks have been heartbreaking and they’re tried to stay out of the spotlight.

“We have become silent and we don’t want people focused on us,” said Clegg. “We want them focused on this baby.”

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...hopeful-two-months-after-toddler-disappeared/

 

[neesaki]

I know! I feel cheated. Just imagine how the poor search and rescue people must feel.

This is terrible to think about on top of what may have happened to this precious child. Those dedicated SARs, selflessly going out at all times and hours, in inclement conditions, losing sleep, their families put on the back burner worrying. I don't know how much is donated and how much isn't, but regardless someone pays for it. And if it's all in response to someone's lies and all is for naught, it's exploitation of the worst kind. I truly hope this isn't the case and that little Deorr really did just wander away, or was abducted and is being taken care of. Best case scenario, someone rescued him. jmo

 

[Hatfield]

However, IR and GGF then directly lied to LE and IR to the public by saying they saw DeOrr playing etc at the campsight. Why would IR go along with such a sinister coverup then turn around and seek counsel in the way a person who has experience with the judicial system does. He understands the ramifications of what you say being used against you....he's cautious as such. Could he really be talked into covering up a crime for two people he doesnt even know? I dont believe GGF would go along with anything so crazy either.

DeOrr is a toddler so it would be much more difficult to pull off sleeping baby. I just cannot see duping two adults like that, whether they may have some challenges or not. Also, if something happened prior to the trip and as some seem to suggest they propped DeOrr up in his carseat....dogs would have alerted on that. Jmo

Im not so sure IR + GGP said much of anything other than they "thought" he was there. They really may have been so focused on trying to have a good time there that they didn't pay much attention to anything about the boy.

I do agree that by now I would have expected them to come clean but if IR lawyer is telling him to keep quiet and just not say anything and if GGP really didn't pay much attention to things I could almost see them not be able to object too much to whatever the parents were saying. Who is he to argue with them when he didn't pay any attention about the boy.

Plus GGP is a direct relative and he may have some feelings to try to stay on the parents side. For IR maybe the laywer is just saying zip it unless you get charged.

I don't know. Just throwing out what I have been thinking about what could have happened.
I am open to suggestions and alternate theories of course. This case is a real stumper.

 

[DatelineFan]

So, do you believe that there is a reliable sighting of DeOrr at 8:00 AM? Maybe the witness that came forward but wanted to remain unknown? That's what it seems from the current timeline, but it doesn't go along with Klein saying no one (other than the four POI's) ever saw him for sure... so confusing.

ETA: and it doesn't seem like there is convincing evidence even that all of the POI's actually saw DeOrr either... which is very odd to me.

Well, in response to your last statement, remember that GGP & IR are not necessarily considered to be reliable. Right?

 

[LietKynes]

Just a few questions, and apologies if they were already touched on :

-- Was there any video from the place they ate/drank at on Thurs. (Silver Dollar)?

-- When were the last photos of DeOrr Jr taken, on facebook or elsewhere ?
Is it possible to 'fake' a photo, like, say-- take a pic of someone and post it months later and say it was taken last week ?
As in, if DeOrr Jr was bruised or otherwise unfit to be seen, could fb photos be posted from months before and dated as if taken recently ?

And I'm finding it difficult that both investigators cannot establish if ANYONE saw him recently. Boggles the mind.
What about family ? Surely they're not all in cahoots with what may be going on ?

Even if DeOrr Jr was deceased prior to the trip; it would've been next to impossible to stop and eat or drink the night before and NOT have the other two poi's asking "where's your kid ?", at least once. Not saying this isn't a possibility. What a horrifying thought to consider it happening this way, or that DeOrr Jr was never on the trip at all.

Many posts back ; I thought one of the investigators said they couldn't or wouldn't comment on whether the dogs hit on a decomp scent in the truck ?
And if they did, would that be enough evidence to go forward ?

Or maybe there's more we haven't been told. And that's fine, as long as they're moving forward with justice for little DeOrr Jr.

MOO

 

[neesaki]

OT:
I've almost posted this several times, but keep hesitating, because I don't want the thread to get derailed. But I know that some here are really fascinated by the critters, they really are interesting, and this video is so cute. I can't tell others how to post, but...I'm posting this as OT! This is such an interesting article and video. By the way, this is down in Preston, Idaho (of Napolean Dynamite fame) on the Idaho/Utah border.

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_a2b037d3-9380-51f2-ad6c-4f527282b94f.html

Oh what beautiful cubs, so sad those poor babies have no mama to care for and teach them to hunt and be independent. Hopefully they'll be successfully re-introduced to their natural habitat. Thanks, ReadySet.

 

[bessie]

But just curious unless I missed something- if he were, in fact, working backwards on his timeline, wouldn't it be premature of him to disclose to the public that some or all of the adults were at the Silver Dollar on Thursday night if it is "inside the timeline" but "outside of prosecutorial questions" if there are "no" sightings of Deorr?

He says it's "outside of prosecutorial questions", which seems to indicate that he considers the stop at the Silver Dollar to be irrelevant to DeOrr's disappearance.

Here's another instance where he mentions 8 am to 2:26 pm. I don't know what he's using as the basis of his working timeline, obviously, other than statements from the new witnesses. But clearly, due to something learned from those witnesses, he's working on the assumption that "whatever happened" occurred between the morning and afternoon on Friday. JMO

DG: Do you think something happened to DeOrr before or after the time stamp on the store receipt?
February 2 at 11:00am

KIC: This goes to timeline. I can say publicly that we have expanded the timeline down to 8 a.m. and between that hour and 2:26 p.
February 2 at 1:15pm

 

[TxJan1971]

Just a few questions, and apologies if they were already touched on :

-- Was there any video from the place they ate/drank at on Thurs. (Silver Dollar)?

<snipped for brevity>

BBM
To my knowledge, there are no statements out there (MSM or otherwise) of any known video at the Silver Dollar. We (I) just learned about that stop/ addition to their timeline a couple days ago when Klein did his most recent Q & A.

Here's what Klein said earlier in January about video in general, followed by his most recent statement placing "them" (? baby) at the Silver Dollar:

1-11-16 - Klein Q & A's
Klein Q & A:
RHF: I find it hard to believe that on the two hour drive to the campsite there was not one traffic camera or surveillance camera that recorded the vehicle. Was there ever video that places Deorr in that truck on that day riding to the campground?
Like • Reply • 13 • January 11 at 3:06pm

Klein Investigations and Consulting We will not comment on video that was found.
Like • Reply • 8 • January 11 at 3:09pm


2-2-16 - Klein Q & A's
DG Did any, or all, of the adults go to the Silver Dollar Restaurant and Bar in Leadore on Thursday, July 9th?
Like • Reply • 2 • 15 hrs

Klein Investigations and Consulting: As this is in the timeline - and outside any prosecutional questions - the answer is yes.
Like • Reply • 2 • 46 mins

DG Was DeOrr with them?
Like • Reply • 34 mins

No answer from Klein


That's all I got for you on video from Klein. I have other general video statements from SB/Penner from back in August 2015 if you want me to add those. Let me know.

 

[neesaki]

Hmmm.....

January 11th, 2016 Q & A's by Klein

RHF: WHERE and WHO was the last person, OTHER THAN THE FOUR CAMPING, to see Deorr Jr. alive?
9 &#8226; January 11 at 12:01pm


Klein Investigations and Consulting As I cannot answer specifics regarding evidence that we have - the public statements of the four that LE has given the public would be correct.
2 &#8226; January 11 at 12:02pm

I must have missed this before. What does it even mean? The statements of the four people?!!

 

[kytty]

I have followed this case from the beginning and read all of the threads. The most logical conclusion I can come up with is this:
I believe the parents, either accidentally or purposefully, caused the death of sweet, beautiful little DeOrr. In an effort to cover their behinds the parents brought a family member in ill health and an easily manipulated acquaintance along on that camping trip in order to create reasonable doubt in the minds of LE, family, and others about what exactly happened to DeOrr and who was involved.