ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

[Deleted member 102539]

Just rereading through this thread and I am wondering where the idea that nobody had seen DeOrr in awhile originated? I don't recall that ever being said. If someone could link it I would be grateful.

Please search Klein and Q&A: he said, there would be "none".

 

[Deleted member 102539]

This is exactly my belief; I just haven't come up with a specific scenario of HOW, yet.

Klein knows "how" but doesn't know "why", I remember. You would be a good team, I think.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

He says it's "outside of prosecutorial questions", which seems to indicate that he considers the stop at the Silver Dollar to be irrelevant to DeOrr's disappearance.

Here's another instance where he mentions 8 am to 2:26 pm. I don't know what he's using as the basis of his working timeline, obviously, other than statements from the new witnesses. But clearly, due to something learned from those witnesses, he's working on the assumption that "whatever happened" occurred between the morning and afternoon on Friday. JMO

DG: Do you think something happened to DeOrr before or after the time stamp on the store receipt?
February 2 at 11:00am

KIC: This goes to timeline. I can say publicly that we have expanded the timeline down to 8 a.m. and between that hour and 2:26 p.
February 2 at 1:15pm

I think it's likely a third party has confirmed seeing DeOrr at 8am - camp warden, ranger or another camper maybe.

However, didn't the Sheriff tell us IR recalls seeing DeOrr at 1pm ish when they got back from the store? Is it just because Klein hasn't heard that directly from IR that he is discounting it?

I'm ever so confused and I know I'm not the only one. Surely there shouldn't even BE any confusion if this is a straightforward "boy lost on mountain" case.

 

[TeaTime]

RE: 8am - 2:26pm.

There is an adorable photo of JM kissing baby DeOrr and he is wearing a white T-shirt and camo hoodie/jacket that seems to match what he was wearing when he 'disappeared'. Perhaps this photo was taken at 8am Friday morning and serves as the only proof that the baby was alive and well until at least that time. Notably, they are in the truck and DeOrr is not belted into his car seat. Just a thought.

OR:

Just a thought:

What if the parents were partying with some folks they met at the bar. When the bar closed at midnight, the party moved to another location and the parents didn't leave from there until 8am. Therefore, the folks they were drinking with would be the last to see the baby. When I say partying it could be alcohol/drugs/sex or all of the above as well as passing out and sleeping it off.

Every little town/village has a spot where the teens go to meet up and party at night. Sometimes, it is an abandoned building on the outskirts of town, or some spot in the wilderness where they can build a fire and play loud music and do what they want - drink, smoke, smoke pot, shoot guns, dance, hook up without anyone seeing them. I am not suggesting that they were partying with teens but people who grew up there, know the spot and still go there to play when the bar closes (or becomes too expensive).

Where is the Leadore spot?

I think that whatever happened to DeOrr was between 8am and noon when the parents were at the store. They may have actually arrived at the campsite 1:10pm for the very first time. I want to believe IR when he says he saw the child after the trip to Leadore, but the whole scenario as told by the parents is a myth according to Klein and the few minutes in which the baby allegedly disappeared into thin air stretches credulity.

They can't get the story straight on who cooked breakfast or who carried the fishing poles because they weren't there for breakfast or the fishing. This is my guess.

I do not see Klein relying on the word of any of the 4 campers to start the 8am timeline since he doesn't believe any of them. Therefore, I pose the above theories.



This is of course, my opinion based on the teeny bits of information available.

 

[TeaTime]

Perhaps there was a photo taken of Deorr on a phone at 8:00 am Friday? The photo would show the date/time it was taken and that could be how they know he was alive at 8:00 am.


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I thought this too and hadn't read your post before posting mine below. GMTA

 

[CoverMeCagney]

IR himself did state in his recent interview with NE that he saw DeOrr at the campsite after 1:00 pm on Friday. He would not elaborate on that statement but his answer was a definite yes.

Jmo but Klein seems to have a problem with IR that I suppose stems from his unwillingness to be interviewed but that is his right. I would want to help in a missing child case in any way possible but if I saw things getting funky and I realized people were being deceptive and I had unwittingly gotten myself wrapped up in such a horrific situation, I might clam up too at this point. Idk...but this seems to be IR vs Klein as to who to believe about when IR last saw DeOrr.

BBM.

No he didn't!!!!

IR only said that he had seen DeOrr at the campsite, he did NOT specify the day or time and would not elaborate. In his interview with Nate Eaton he said:

EATON: Do you remember the last time you saw little DeOrr?
REINWAND: No comment.
EATON: But he was up there?
REINWAND: Yes, he was.
EATON: He was up there, you saw him, you know he was there.
REINWAND: Yes.

It was the Sheriff who said IR recalled seeing DeOrr after the store trip at 1ish. He said:

The mother said that they got back at 1:10 p.m. Isaac doesn’t dispute that. He’s not watching a clock or a watch or anything of that sort, but he concurs that it was around that time period. They got back shortly after 1:00 p.m.

Just clearing that up

 

[mrjitty]

You don't start a timeline when a person is first noticed to be missing.

...

Which leads us back to the question of why 8 a.m. is significant.

Completely agree.

From other cases I have followed the timeline usually begins from the last, independently verifiable cast iron witness sighting or other interaction.

Inside that timeline are other potential beginning points - e.g. when a less than rock solid witness claims to have seen the child.

In my view 8am must involve an interaction with someone outside of the group.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

You are definitely touching on some of the same things I struggle with. But with the lack of a solid witness claiming they definitely saw an alive walking boy that weekend I keep going back to the possibility the whole trip was a sinister coverup. And I do think its possible that IR and GGP may have been initially duped into thinking the boy was alive too.

The whole trip seemed like a rushed trip with very little planning which makes me really think the whole trip may have been a ploy for alternate reasons. I don't think IR + GGP realized they were part of this plan until they may have figured things out much later and for whatever reason may have decided to help the parents by just not saying what they suspect.

Just throwing out a possible scenario to see how it could have happened.

Lets suppose something happened at home with just the parents and the boy. Those 2 come up with the plan to make it look like he goes missing in the woods while camping. They get ready to go and realize that suspicion would immediately be thrown upon them but if there were others there with them, then maybe not. So they invite GGP to go along with them and lets suppose he decides to invite IR too. They drive separate vehicles and so the whole way down there the carseat/sleeping boy would have not garnered much attention from GGP and IR since they were excited to go on the camping trip.

I think it could have fairly easily fooled GGP and IR at first using "needing nap" or "napping" but at some point they most likely realized what was happening and maybe just decided to go along with the story.

I guess I am at the point that until a witness says they saw a walking or crawling baby boy then I am not convinced he was even alive before they headed out from home area. Even witnesses that may have seen a carseat in the truck is not good enough for me at this point.

I think back to Johnny Knoxville and those crazy stunts he pulled with strollers and the like.

IF the dirty bawling little boy was seen on Thursday evening 6pm and IF it was indeed little Deorr, then there would be a period of time from 6pm Thursday to 8am Friday, where something significant could have happened to the boy (maybe: AGAIN). A period of time in which "some" adults of 4 may have been at the bar and one/some adult/s plus Deorr NOT. Further there is the possibility that the man with the bawling boy was a 5. adult with what-black-truck-ever and the boy was indeed little Deorr.
Since it hasn't been cleared who was in the bar and if at all, it is understandable that there is no time given for the arriving of 4 adults plus little Deorr at the campground. We have times changing from Thursday afternoon to Thursday evening to Thursday late in the night (later than 0:00 it would have been even Friday). Seemingly some of this (deadly?) team was seen at 8am on Friday, with little Deorr just barely alive or already "sleeping". - ONLY my brainstorming.

I think, it is very unusual for a caring mother/father to go with a toddler on a camping trip in a deserted region (which would have last a few days), and then not to buy food beforehand. "Trying to buy food" in the night before their arriving? Implausible, when "trying" even means: I didn't get food, I tried only. One of tens of oddities. IMO

 

[persimmon]

Please search Klein and Q&A: he said, there would be "none".

Ok I had seen that from his recent q&a but it's very cryptic imo and I'm thinking Klein either misinterpreted the question to mean within the given timeline or ? It makes no sense as a blanket statement that nobody has seen DeOrr.

I personally don't feel this is going to be as sinister as some feel it's becoming. It's horrific either way...but I believe the parents were negligent on the trip and rather than face that, they opted to rewrite history and attempt to deceive LE and others. I personally believe they have bad habits that are at the root of all of this and likely causing them to lack common sense and the ability to reason through their actions. Jmo

 

[persimmon]

BBM.

No he didn't!!!!

IR only said that he had seen DeOrr at the campsite, he did NOT specify the day or time and would not elaborate. In his interview with Nate Eaton he said:



It was the Sheriff who said IR recalled seeing DeOrr after the store trip at 1ish. He said:



Just clearing that up

I'll go back and watch the interview but I recall the question posed as did you see DeOrr on Friday after 1:00? To which he answered yes. That is stuck in my head so I need to review.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I'll go back and watch the interview but I recall the question posed as did you see DeOrr on Friday after 1:00? To which he answered yes. That is stuck in my head so I need to review.

Morning! Sorry if I sounded shouty!

I edited my last post to include the transcript of the interview - I'm pretty sure it's correctly transcribed and IR didn't specify a time because I remember thinking it could have been 9:30pm Thursday and DeOrr could have died overnight. Let me know when you've watched it though as I think it's important we clear this up.

Either Klein is not including IR's 1pm sighting simply because they haven't spoken to each other.
Or the Sheriff got confused.
Or IR saw DeOrr asleep in the truck (ie not confirmed alive).
Or IR is confused and has misremembered.
Or IR is being, ahem, less than truthful.

 

[TeaTime]

Ok I had seen that from his recent q&a but it's very cryptic imo and I'm thinking Klein either misinterpreted the question to mean within the given timeline or ? It makes no sense as a blanket statement that nobody has seen DeOrr.

I personally don't feel this is going to be as sinister as some feel it's becoming. It's horrific either way...but I believe the parents were negligent on the trip and rather than face that, they opted to rewrite history and attempt to deceive LE and others. I personally believe they have bad habits that are at the root of all of this and likely causing them to lack common sense and the ability to reason through their actions. Jmo

I pray that it is not sinister but what on Earth would make someone hide their dead baby other than something quite sinister?

 

[persimmon]

BBM.

No he didn't!!!!

IR only said that he had seen DeOrr at the campsite, he did NOT specify the day or time and would not elaborate. In his interview with Nate Eaton he said:



It was the Sheriff who said IR recalled seeing DeOrr after the store trip at 1ish. He said:



Just clearing that up

Ok. Thank you for setting that straight. I reviewed the interview and there is no mention of time or day as you noted. I guess I did confuse SB's comment with the interview. He does seem adament that he saw DeOrr at some point and he must have elaborated more with SB. This makes me question Klein's timeline.

No..your smiley didn't seem shouty and I appreciate being corrected when I'm wrong about a fact or detail.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I think it's likely a third party has confirmed seeing DeOrr at 8am - camp warden, ranger or another camper maybe.

However, didn't the Sheriff tell us IR recalls seeing DeOrr at 1pm ish when they got back from the store? Is it just because Klein hasn't heard that directly from IR that he is discounting it?

I'm ever so confused and I know I'm not the only one. Surely there shouldn't even BE any confusion if this is a straightforward "boy lost on mountain" case.

bbm

Maybe some stranger on the road the father VDK said he drove. He was "excited" to see his campground clearly from some opposite side. Maybe, there from that road a little toddler was seen by a stranger, the little child all alone without adults in the morning 8am on Friday? Maybe, there is a photo available from same stranger?

Yes, I know: my theories are always changing ...

 

[MistyM]

I may be a little slow, but I keep thinking WHO were the witnesses to last see Deorr alive? In my head, I'm picturing the campsite, wondering who would be in the area and stuff.

But that 8 am sighting could be ANYWHERE. And not necessarily a place of business either (stage shop, silver dollar, etc). I would think it would have been at a "stop"...whether that be in public, or pulled over on the side of the road (far away from the campground for all we know).

Seems like the more we learn, the less we know.

:banghead:

perhaps the 4 of them met a few people from leadore and asked them to come to the campsite that night for a little get together, (gotta get back and get the kid to bed).

a few of the party go'ers get really drunk and decide to stay in their vehicles till they sober up, end up sleeping at the capsite, leave at 8am the next morning.

voila~ witnesses seeing a 'sleeping' or 'awake' child at 8am friday morning as the last one leaves.

 

[persimmon]

I pray that it is not sinister but what on Earth would make someone hide their dead baby other than something quite sinister?

Yes, anything is sinister, but I guess I was thinking that whatever happened, happened ON the camping trip and the trip itself was not a ruse of sorts. Additionally, I don't believe it was something resulting from an action directed at DeOrr...such as physical abuse or any other type. I tend to think they neglected their duties as parents and DeOrr perhaps got into something dangerous accidentally, or they may have medicated him to get him to sleep with tragic consequences. I've been researching how likely it would be for a toddler die if they ingested certain substances. I'm leaning heavily toward that being the cause. I have a feeling the trip to the store is critical to this mystery.

 

[Rayemonde]

JMO but I think Klein is cryptic on purpose sometimes... Because he.wants to give the impression that he knows everything that happened, so he doesn't want any of his statements to come back and haunt him if they later turn out to be false. So I think he sometimes gives ambiguous answers on purpose.

 

[Lots2Learn]

Good morning, as I sit here reading this morning , I had to wonder if maybe Klein would do a radio interview. Then the questions could be ask one at a time and we would have the answers from his voice rather than written. I also believe Bessie would ask the questions we have all been struggling with.


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[persimmon]

JMO but I think Klein is cryptic on purpose sometimes... Because he.wants to give the impression that he knows everything that happened, so he doesn't want any of his statements to come back and haunt him if they later turn out to be false. So I think he sometimes gives ambiguous answers on purpose.

I think you're absolutely correct here and this is why I take his answers (some of them anyways) with a grain of salt. I'm not discrediting his work on the case but at the same time I'm hesitant to believe he uncovered the smoking gun in such a short time frame.

 

[bessie]

Good morning, as I sit here reading this morning , I had to wonder if maybe Klein would do a radio interview. Then the questions could be ask one at a time and we would have the answers from his voice rather than written. I also believe Bessie would ask the questions we have all been struggling with.


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Good morning. That's a good idea. I'll be happy to mention it to Tricia.