ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

[Pretty Go Pale]

Yes, anything is sinister, but I guess I was thinking that whatever happened, happened ON the camping trip and the trip itself was not a ruse of sorts. Additionally, I don't believe it was something resulting from an action directed at DeOrr...such as physical abuse or any other type. I tend to think they neglected their duties as parents and DeOrr perhaps got into something dangerous accidentally, or they may have medicated him to get him to sleep with tragic consequences. I've been researching how likely it would be for a toddler die if they ingested certain substances. I'm leaning heavily toward that being the cause. I have a feeling the trip to the store is critical to this mystery.

We're on the same train, persimmon.

 

[PowMom01]

Does anyone here have any clue on when they think this will break wide open? I don't think I can handle another FB Q&A.

Deorr brought me to WS. I cannot leave him until this is resolved.

At first I thought the parents were suspect, then I read the Missing 411 threads and a few of the books, that actually changed my mind to an accident (not bigfoot or UFOs) that the parent's covered up due to illegal drugs.

Now....I have no idea what to think. I have a horrible thought that involves all four POIs, Deorr Jr, a camper, a secluded place and exchange of money and services.

This is all MY OPINION AND SPECULATION ONLY.

 

[Hatfield]

I know this is very frustrating for all of us. If it was a simple case of a lost boy it seems things would be much clearer. So jotted down some things that have contributed to the confusion.

All JMO

-When story first broke there was an unclear "story" of what exactly happened. Too much confusion of who saw him last and where was he last.

- 3 out of 4 of the group called 911 to report him missing. Why did all 3 call at roughly all the same time?

- LE + PIs both say inconsistent stories and conflicting information from 4 adults who were there. From interviews, not lie detector tests.

-Lie detector tests inconclusive and/or less than truthful in some cases.

-4 or 5 lie detector tests being given. That is a lot IMO which indicates LE + FBI was not happy about results.

- Just recently we are hearing about a stop at a restaurant on Thursday night. New information this late in the game is indicative of certain information was being withheld originally. So why would that be? Did LE withhold it or did 4 withhold it? Is it an important part of what happened? What other new information is important to know and has not been shared?

- At this point, depending on how we interpret statements, it is hard to agree that anyone outside of the 4 saw an alive boy that weekend.

- There are 4 brand new witnesses outside of the original 4 that we are learning about that may have saw something. And according to Klein maybe a 5th person because he used the number 9 in one answer during Q+A. So what new information do these witnesses provide that could be important to help understand what happened?
Why are we just learning about these additional witnesses?
If they are the other campers then we may have heard bits and pieces about them earlier. Who is the 9th person?

-The whole cremains "thing" is just so unbelievably coincidental that it is tough to believe it was not somehow related. What are the odds that during the very first search for the boy, we learn of people dumping cremains in the very area they are searching.
Who were the people? Were they in any relation whatsoever to the 4 that were camping?
Sheriff went so far as saying something like "came in behind them" or something along those lines.
Just totally incredibly coincidental. Almost too much coincidence.

-After an exhaustive search by LE and many SAR groups there continues to be no sign of the boy around that campground.


The only good news is that we will never give up in trying to find out what happened. Humans are good in that way. There will always be people that will keep trying to determine what happened and where he is. So if anybody ever thought things would just go away eventually, they are mistaken. We humans never give up and especially with a young child. It may take months, years, and even decades but people will always keep trying to find out what happened. So if something malicious did happen then those people need to live their entire life looking over their shoulder.
Not a good way to live life. They can end the paranoia by coming clean to LE and let the chips fall where they may. Especially those who may have not really been responsible and were taken along for the ride. No reason to live your life being paranoid for something that is not really your doing.

With all that said, lets keep going. Where is little Deorr?

 

[SweetT]

Fwiw, this is what the grandmother said about that:
“We have become silent and we don’t want people focused on us,” said Clegg. “We want them focused on this baby.”



http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/0...hopeful-two-months-after-toddler-disappeared/

Problem with this is. YOU are the spokespeople for your baby! IF you dont speak up and for him No one else will. He should be more important than anything and being silent wont help him! Dont worry about what social media says, but get out there and go to bat for your baby/grandbaby etc. Use that media to your advantage.

 

[wondering25]

The original interview said that deorr (the baby) was seen in the store at 630, filthy and bawling on FRIDAY. That was discounted by the father as he was already reported missing by 230ish that afternoon. So, what is everyone saying? He was with the filthy bawling baby in the store on Thursday at 630? It doesnt appear anyone can say that definitely..

Quite frankly, I think the timeline is valueless. Alive Thursday.. alive Friday.. he is no where to be found now. What is the motive for his disappearance? I want to know what was found or not found on highway cams. Original interviews with one of the sheriffs said vernal stopped for diesel. NO ONE mentioned a stop for booze, food or anything else on his trip to the campsite. Now we think witnesses who were there in the tavern that night have come forward? Not buying it.

What happened to the creep in the jeep? what happened to every other story? Who knows who saw what at 8 am unless there was a time stamped photo on a smart phone showing the baby was alive. Where does a person put a car seat in a pickup truck? Back jump seats? Does the truck have those?

There is no reliable timeline, imo. IF there is a sighting of HIS black truck on a thoroughfare at a time he says he was at the campsite or somewhere else.. that would speak volumes. IMO.

Motive motive motive..what would that be? Cover an act of unintentional negligence? freedom from parental strife? Sold to someone for drugs or financial gain? Anyone can spin a story based on what they think they know including LE. Polys are unreliable.. what else do they have? No one has been arrested yet.. Here is one view of calling someone a suspect:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspect

Everyone seems to be sure LE has something...is it enough? is it valuable? can it hold up in court? They dont even have a timeline. Solid, good with me and I am good with them.. in firmed poi..filthy bawling babies..minnow, myths.. and inadmissible polys.. whatcha got, LE? Sounds like a lot of disconnected junk to me. jmo

Are the parents responsible?
probably... but no one has dropped the net on them yet.. no reliable timeline and lots of statements out there about how LE were in sync with the parents.. no motive, and juries love a motive.. jmo

anything i write is just my opinion.

 

[Hatfield]

Back the other day someone had brought us information regarding the original 1st PI receiving a phone call from a witness "allegedly" seeing the Rubicon Jeep and they had 4 small kids and were hiking in the area.

Then it was shown where the PI called one of the parents and the parent gave statements that matched too perfectly to what the witness had said about the Rubicon.

LE + FBI need to trace that call and find out who called the PI giving the "alleged" story about the Rubicon and 4 small kids hiking in the area.

This is 1 thing LE + FBI can do today and it may show that someone was trying to purposely throw off the investigation.
I think this would be critical for LE to do if they have not already.

Its not much but it could prove and provide solid evidence of someone purposely trying to throw off the investigation. Once LE had this then they could maybe use it as ammunition to try to get someone to tell the complete truth of what happened.

 

[neesaki]

The campers at the upper campground -- the one VDK kept saying he didn't even know existed -- could see clearly into the lower campground. It's possible one of them saw or heard little DK running about and being a 2 yo on a camping trip. Sound carries.

(Although that brings us back to there being some question STILL of no one being 100 percent sure he was there. Sigh)

jmo

I've thought of that too, and wonder if maybe they had binoculars.

 

[Midge Montana]

Just a thought about the 9 witnesses with firm info statement...

I know we've guessed at who these new ones might be. Other campers? Patrons of the bar/restaurant?

What if we're taking the word witnesses in the wrong context? What if these new witnesses aren't people who actually witnessed things as they unfolded but are instead "witnesses" in the context of "we call expert witness Mr. Smith who analyzed the phone records" kinda witnesses?

We do know that phone records were and are being analyzed and surely those doing so have found some firm info. So is it possible he wasn't referring to people who had witnessed actions first hand, but rather witnesses that can be called to present facts in court?

That thought just popped into my head. Also, do you think any of the 4 adults are counted as witnesses? I'm wondering, because it seems they are not providing firm info when they've given multiple versions of events.

 

[kammiemc]

IR told NE he saw baby but did not mention a date or time.

Bowerman said, "The mother said that they got back at 1:10 p.m. Isaac doesn’t dispute that. He’s not watching a clock or a watch or anything of that sort, but he concurs that it was around that time period. They got back shortly after 1:00 p.m."

IR doesn't dispute 1:10 but SB isn't saying that IR actually saw baby at that time.

Correct me if I'm wrong; if there are statements from LE that say IR specifically saw the baby after 1:00.

I have a little question mark about what Isaac stated, too. Not that I assume he would lie (although that's a possibility). But I think there is a chance that he could have been confused or fooled into thinking he saw DeOrr at a certain time--or that he even could have been convinced by someone else to convey a certain story. It doesn't help that Klein said that Isaac saw DeOrr after the store, depending on which statement you believe.

 

[Inthedetails]

After reading today about Lonzie in FL drowning while his mom and her boyfriend had sex, I'm wondering if something similar happened to DeOrr. Perhaps he drowned in the creek that morning and the parents panicked because they were not watching him and let him wander around alone. The dad kept saying it felt like a safe enclosed space....perhaps they felt it was okay to let him wander while they stayed in bed. ??

Just one more speculation. Everyday brings a new one. I hope we one day (soon) learn the truth for this boy.

JMO

 

[Hatfield]

I've thought of that too, and wonder if maybe they had binoculars.

Good Point. They could have also had a Spotting Scope which is similar to binoculars but even better. Hunters sometimes use spotting scopes to look at great distances. They are much more common lately than years ago.

A good pair of binoculars also helps to look at great distances.

 

[kammiemc]

I pray that it is not sinister but what on Earth would make someone hide their dead baby other than something quite sinister?

To be honest, neither covering for an accident nor deciding it's a good day to get rid of a child make ANY sense to me. I just can't begin to understand. But I'm hoping for the less sinister for DeOrr and everyone who loved him, and even the parents (I am having a very fleeting moment of empathy, don't get used to it haha.)

 

[kammiemc]

I'm happy to agree to disagree, but...

KIC: Very good question. We answered that in one of the many interviews - and I will got over it again. When we first started this case we thought we had the timeline down pretty tight - however - now we have four more witnesses that open the timeline to an extended period. That timeline is now 8 a.m. to 2:26 pm.
February 2 at 12:33pm

As of last week, IR had not spoken to Klein, and Klein clearly doesn't give credence to any of IR's statements. So I'm pretty sure IR is not one of the four. GGP? I doubt that he or either parent changed their story now, and certainly not to Klein.


JVR: Did Isaac confirm that he did see DeOrr alive at the camp site at any time and specifically after the trip to the store?
February 1 at 9:31pm

KIC: This goes to direct testimony. The only comment we will make at this point is that : "It depends on which statement you want to believe that came from Isaac."
February 2 at 12:49pm

Maybe they partied all night and someone crashed at the campsite and left at 8 AM to go back to work. (A stretch, yes! But they might have known people at the tavern or met them.)

 

[SweetT]

I've thought of that too, and wonder if maybe they had binoculars.

I always have binoculars when I'm out camping.

 

[Rayemonde]

Yeah I noticed that JM is quite twitchy in that video, but there could be a number of reasons for that. Really bad anxiety, for example, can cause fidgeting. I know that when I get really anxious my mouth goes really dry and I keep licking my lips, swallowing, clenching my jaw, pursing my lips... There must be a lot of medical conditions that can cause fidgeting too, and I know there are some prescription drugs that can cause constant movement of the mouth or tongue as a side-effect.

 

[Beezneez]

Yeah I noticed that JM is quite twitchy in that video, but there could be a number of reasons for that. Really bad anxiety, for example, can cause fidgeting. I know that when I get really anxious my mouth goes really dry and I keep licking my lips, swallowing, clenching my jaw, pursing my lips... There must be a lot of medical conditions that can cause fidgeting too, and I know there are some prescription drugs that can cause constant movement of the mouth or tongue as a side-effect.

Tar dive dyskinesia can come from the use of some drugs. I do wonder why LE wouldn't have clarified that as reason for JM to have inconclusive results on a poly, they way they did for IR? It would affect the nervous system enough to throw a poly off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardive_dyskinesia

 

[bessie]

Just a thought about the 9 witnesses with firm info statement...

I know we've guessed at who these new ones might be. Other campers? Patrons of the bar/restaurant?

What if we're taking the word witnesses in the wrong context? What if these new witnesses aren't people who actually witnessed things as they unfolded but are instead "witnesses" in the context of "we call expert witness Mr. Smith who analyzed the phone records" kinda witnesses?

We do know that phone records were and are being analyzed and surely those doing so have found some firm info. So is it possible he wasn't referring to people who had witnessed actions first hand, but rather witnesses that can be called to present facts in court?

That thought just popped into my head. Also, do you think any of the 4 adults are counted as witnesses? I'm wondering, because it seems they are not providing firm info when they've given multiple versions of events.

Respectfully, he doesn't have nine expert witnesses. If he did that would mean he had a whole lotta evidence to be analyzed, and it wouldn't be his duty to hire them. That would be up to the prosecutor, should someone be charged with a crime. He might have retained an expert to advise on a specific aspect, but not nine.

He said they have four more witnesses who helped to open up the timeline. That means, IMO, new information from four individuals with personal knowledge of an event, or events, which took place that day. Four people who can attest to something they saw or heard, or who have in their possession a piece of physical evidence, i.e., an image, recording, receipt, or other documentation of an act or event. I could be wrong, but to me, that's what it means if you say you're building a timeline.

Of the remaining five witnesses, who knows. Acquaintances who can provide background information, perhaps. Whoever they are, he claims they've provided solid information. So we shall see.

 

[Rayemonde]

Just a few questions, and apologies if they were already touched on :

-- Was there any video from the place they ate/drank at on Thurs. (Silver Dollar)?

Bowerman said there was no video.

-- When were the last photos of DeOrr Jr taken, on facebook or elsewhere ?
Is it possible to 'fake' a photo, like, say-- take a pic of someone and post it months later and say it was taken last week ?
As in, if DeOrr Jr was bruised or otherwise unfit to be seen, could fb photos be posted from months before and dated as if taken recently ?

Yes, you could upload old pics to facebook and pretend you'd just taken them. baby Chance's mother uploaded a picture of him to Facebook 5 days after he died, and pretended she'd just taken it.

Also, I just had a thought - it's really easy now to airbrush or otherwise alter a photograph even on your mobile phone. I doubt they did this, but it just occurred to me that if someone wanted to hide bruises in a photo it would be very simple.

Another thought - some parents love their kids when they are babies, and dote on them, but then lose interest or become abusive once they become toddlers and start running off, having tantrums, potty training accidents etc. Again, I have no idea if it happened in this case.

Many posts back ; I thought one of the investigators said they couldn't or wouldn't comment on whether the dogs hit on a decomp scent in the truck ?
And if they did, would that be enough evidence to go forward ?

I don't remember anyone specifically mentioning possible hits in the truck, but SB in his last interview with Tricia and Bessie said there had been a few hits from the dogs, but nothing definite. He didn't say where these hits occurred.

 

[bessie]

This discussion needs to end. It's pure conjecture. But see how fast it took off? That's dangerous.

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

Respectfully, he doesn't have nine expert witnesses. If he did that would mean he had a whole lotta evidence to be analyzed, and it wouldn't be his duty to hire them. That would be up to the prosecutor should someone be charged with a crime. He might have retained an expert to advise on a specific aspect, but not nine.

He said they have four more witnesses who helped to open up the timeline. That means, IMO, new information from four individuals with personal knowledge of an event, or events, which took place that day. Four people who can attest to something they saw or heard, or who have in their possession a piece of physical evidence, i.e., an image, recording, receipt, or other documentation of an act or event. I could be wrong, but to me, that's what it means if you say you're building a timeline.

Of the remaining five witnesses, who knows. Acquaintances who can provide background information, perhaps. Whoever they are, he claims they've provided solid information. So we shall see.

I have a feeling that the owner of The Silver Dollar Bar, Rebecca Cox, may be one of the witnesses.