ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

[giagreen]

I'm not sure if SB's "I'm not sure if" really means he's not sure if. Does that make sense?

Lol it totally makes sense only because I know what your talking about...haha

 

[Onebest]

Thank you Onebest for taking the time to answer my post. I can see why finding a baby poses greater challenges. I never had considered the mixed scents from the caregivers. Let me ask you this. Let's say for example, DeOrr's blanket was used to scent the dogs and it had also been handled by Jessica. Would this give the dogs two completely different scents, one being DeOrr's and the other being Jessica's, or would their combination create a new scent? If the two scents remain isolated, would the dogs then track to Jessica?

IMO each scent remains. I have personally see this play out in training with two scents, not more then that. So logically, the more scent contamination the more difficult the problem.

I believe in the scenario you lay out, that tracking who ever else touched the blanket is quite possible. Probably other variables, maybe a trailing handler can offer better info.

BUT, we dont have enough information overall to do anything but speculate. Personally, I always go back to what Sheriff Bowerman states happened with the dogs. I trust his experience. He was there, he was in charge of the search, all SAR K9's deploy under his authority and he knows the conditions they were working under. All of this is JMO.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Yeah, good point...

How could the EMT bag be relevant, though? I'm thinking it was probably just a coincidence. They had a lot of volunteer searchers up there, maybe one of them just wanted an EMT bag.

re: first question

EMT bags are a pretty decent size. They could easily be used to carry a little boy out of a campground.

 

[Mickshawn]

I don't know if this is anything new to you, I can't see anything new but I'm struggling to keep up with threads being home alone with 3 babies at the moment but this is hitting our news in the UK right now, published 4 hours ago


http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/re...s/news-story/2bdcd8daafeb4d338d92f21a6ca53eb3

That came in my mailbox, too. How 'bout THAT for good reporting...Ms. Williams (oops, it's Ms. Mitchell).

 

[Rayemonde]

re: first question

EMT bags are a pretty decent size. They could easily be used to carry a little boy out of a campground.

If it was a really big EMG bag... I think they come in a variety of sizes. But even if it were large enough, is that a likely scenario? Someone killed DeOrr, left his body near the campground where the dogs missed it, and then they decided to carry his body out with with them in a very distinctive and noticeable bag that would soon be reported missing, whilst the search was going on?

 

[Deleted member 718]

I can't think of a plausible scenario where they would cover up an accident - unless maybe hard drugs were involved and they would face a long time in prison if LE found out about the drugs.

An accidental drowning, a hot car death, a car accident - I can imagine one person panicking and deciding to hide the body. But two of them, both thinking it was a good idea? Or four of them, if you think they all knew about it? No way. Didn't happen. Whatever happened, they were scared of serious charges and a long time in prison. Scared enough to refuse to call an ambulance, scared enough to go driving around with a dead body, to leave their child without a decent burial, to concoct a story, to face constant scrutiny from LE and from the public, to lie to all their friends and family about what happened and leave them without closure... No way was it a simple accident.
All just :moo:

*nods head* I'd like to add their soliciting the public for funds. Which is one reason Bowerman went on record as saying they are the top suspects in the disappearance of their son. And I guess that action came around to bite them in the bum, as the PI that was hired from these funds thinks they are guilty of hiding Deorr also. smh

 

[CanSleuth]

My guess would be the EMT bag is not related to Deorr's disappearance, but of course due diligence should be done in investigation just in case there is a link. I think it is most likely that someone stole it (maybe a searcher), thinking there might be valuable/expensive medical equipment inside, drugs (like morphine etc...) or needles that could be used for drugs.

 

[ILOKAL]

I can't argue the science of the poly and how effective they are really at telling truth from lies. I know mostly they are a LE tool not often admissible in court. That being said I can tell you the FBI and LE know how to word the questions so they don't cause a conflict in the interviewees mind. Saying they were torn internally because the questions were too broad in not plausible IMHO. You get to read and talk about all the questions before a poly starts. The only questions you don't get input on are the control because there is no point messing with those questions. The kind of question they would have been asked "did you cause Deorr to disappear?". "Was Deorr physically injured or in danger when you last saw him?". "Do you know where Deorr's body is right not?" "Did you dispose of Deorr's body?" They are not messing around with vague questions they will go simple and right to the point. And from what we've heard each parent took 4 poly's which means there was plenty of time for them to tell the poly examiner they didn't like a certain question.

It's my understanding that the examinee does have input on control and irrelevant questions. Without that input, the examiner has no way of knowing what questions to use and how to word them in order to get the physiological response that is required. The questions must be answered with a definitive "No" in order for the comparisons to be valid. But IF, for any number of reasons, an examinee is concerned or worried about his answer to a control questions, even AFTER all the kinks have supposedly been worked out during the Pre-test interview, then it is the examinee's physiological reaction to THOSE questions that is used to determine their truthfulness or deception to the relevant questions. This article is quite good and gives the reader an understanding about how polygraphs work (or not).

http://www.fas.org/sgp/othergov/polygraph/ota/varieties.html

 

[said_it_and_meant_it]

Before I say anything let me state that I have NO professional training with S&R dogs. This is just a thought. I also understand it could be a silly thought. But a thought I have none the less.
If the cadaver dogs were skilled enough to pick up the scent of cremated ashes dumped in a river wouldn't they be able to pick up the scent, which I would think would be a lot stronger, of a decomposing body in the heat of the summer? Unless of course the baby was no longer there or moved to a part of the camp grounds that was so far off/away from where they were searching.

 

[ClaireNC]

Sort of O/T. People have asked about other cases where there were murder convictions without a body. I came across this list while researching another case. Wikipedia List of Murder Convictions Without a Body.

 

[pepelepolecat]

If it was a really big EMG bag... I think they come in a variety of sizes. But even if it were large enough, is that a likely scenario? Someone killed DeOrr, left his body near the campground where the dogs missed it, and then they decided to carry his body out with with them in a very distinctive and noticeable bag that would soon be reported missing, whilst the search was going on?

I wouldn't even hazard a guess as to whether it's a likely scenario or not.

But if he was killed, driven out of the campground past the search zone (or presumed search zone) and concealed or protected somehow, it wouldn't be too hard to go back in on an ATV or other vehicle under the guise of searching, put him in the bag and zip back out.

Sometimes the best way to hide something is to do it right out in the open.

This is all pure conjecture.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Sort of O/T. People have asked about other cases where there were murder convictions without a body. I came across this list while researching another case. Wikipedia List of Murder Convictions Without a Body.

This was fascinating. Thank you!

Also off-topic, but I will bet the man convicted after a bog body was found spent the rest of his life regretting his confession. Wow!

 

[bessie]

Before I say anything let me state that I have NO professional training with S&R dogs. This is just a thought. I also understand it could be a silly thought. But a thought I have none the less.
If the cadaver dogs were skilled enough to pick up the scent of cremated ashes dumped in a river wouldn't they be able to pick up the scent, which I would think would be a lot stronger, of a decomposing body in the heat of the summer? Unless of course the baby was no longer there or moved to a part of the camp grounds that was so far off/away from where they were searching.

Sure they would. Some of the other dogs would have picked up on fresh remains, too. And if the body lay in one spot long enough, a cadaver dog might still have detected the scent after the body was removed.

 

[JadeSLeuth]

JMO
My feeling is that the EMT bag is key. I think it was used to sneak DeOrr Junior out in some way.
I can't really defend this in a debate - but I can't ignore the strength of the vibe. Body stashed then moved once it was realized how many people were turning up. I think a good portion of this whole thing was haphazard and quick fixes after "Oh *****" moments. In fact, my main working theory (which is incomplete) could be called "The Oh ***** Theory".

Seriously JMO.

 

[bluesneakers]

I can't think of a plausible scenario where they would cover up an accident - unless maybe hard drugs were involved and they would face a long time in prison if LE found out about the drugs.

An accidental drowning, a hot car death, a car accident - I can imagine one person panicking and deciding to hide the body. But two of them, both thinking it was a good idea? Or four of them, if you think they all knew about it? No way. Didn't happen. Whatever happened, they were scared of serious charges and a long time in prison. Scared enough to refuse to call an ambulance, scared enough to go driving around with a dead body, to leave their child without a decent burial, to concoct a story, to face constant scrutiny from LE and from the public, to lie to all their friends and family about what happened and leave them without closure... No way was it a simple accident.
All just :moo:

This might be really way out there - but what if a hot car death was the result of a punishment or some other situation they couldn't explain away as an accident. I'm not sure if something like that could be detected, but I can imagine parents saying fine, if you don't want to be good with grandpa you can stay in the truck.

When parents are charged in hot car deaths how is LE able to determine it was intentional?

 

[carbuff]

Re: dogs

There are also dogs trained to follow scents in water. We saw them working from boats in the search for Alexis Murphy's remains. I don't know whether any of the dogs working DeOrr's search had that training, though.

 

[TanTanWawa]

Yes, I know they had divers and sonar, but investigators think he's still up on the mountain. If he died somewhere else, wouldn't the cadaver dog hit on it? Maybe not a scent dog, but a cadaver dog? The terrain looks hard to navigate for grown ups, and toddlers love water, which is why the reservior seems a likely place, if they all agree he is still there. Frustrating that we are having the worst winter in a while that could be washing away evidence.

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[Onebest]

Re: dogs

There are also dogs trained to follow scents in water. We saw them working from boats in the search for Alexis Murphy's remains. I don't know whether any of the dogs working DeOrr's search had that training, though.

There are pictures of dogs searching the water from shoreline and in boats.

 

[TanTanWawa]

People probably don't know, but it would have been a recovery effort early on. Although it was July, the temperature dips at night this high in the mountains. So it may not be much consolation in the beginning, but if he did get lost, he didn't have to suffer alone and frightened for long. The urgency would have been exposure from the first day. Pretty sad. Made me rethink going camping with my 3 year old last Summer, that's for sure.

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[TanTanWawa]

I can think of two cases from Idaho where the poly was proven wrong. Lorne Red Elk's killer passed while reportedly using medication, and Richard Leavitt like 30 years after he was convicted of Murder. He tried to use the poly evidence to appeal his death sentence. They executed him a few years ago.
Also interesting that in the Ramsey case, FBI consulted with locals later on, and decided the family was less than truthful about Jonbenet's murder, feeling it was an inside job, and they used the circumstantial evidence to bring it before a grand jury. The grand jury felt there was enough evidence of an inside job, the judge didn't agree, so it never went to trial. In 2008, DNA evidence cleared the family of wrongdoing. They have an unidentified male sub responsible, and John Ramsey has sued news outlets for defamation of character. Her mother died while still being accused of murdering her daughter. I would hate to see that happen again if there is any doubt.

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