ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

[Lilibet]

This might be the 3rd time I've mentioned it, because nobody else seems to think it's a possibility, that Deorr Jr was physically abused by one or both parents and if it was an accident, they were afraid of internal injuries came to light during an autopsy. Or that underneath his clothes he had bruising or anything like that. Many abusers target areas which cannot be seen by outsiders, i.e. will only strike parts of the body that would be hidden by clothing.

This is MOO and not based on anything other than trying to come up with reasons the parents may have covered up an accident.

So the statement requesting info of ANY discussion (interaction?) witnessed between little Deorr and his parents is to possibly find witnesses who remember interactions that would be telling in regards to abuse and/or neglect. I'm glad this angle is being explored, as it should be.

I've come to believe that abuse is a possibility, especially after the request for information about interactions. What you say about hidden abuse is quite true. It would certainly explain a cover up of an accident. The accident may even have been "discipline" carried too far which would be obvious and result in charges.

Physical abuse involves physical harm or injury to the child. It may be the result of a deliberate attempt to hurt the child, but not always. It can also result from severe discipline, such as using a belt on a child, or physical punishment that is inappropriate to the child’s age or physical condition.
Many physically abusive parents and caregivers insist that their actions are simply forms of discipline—ways to make children learn to behave. But there is a big difference between using physical punishment to discipline and physical abuse. The point of disciplining children is to teach them right from wrong, not to make them live in fear.

http://www.helpguide.org/articles/abuse/child-abuse-and-neglect.htm

For any who can't imagine a mother allowing her child to be abused or discarded, there are multiple threads with this scenario. Baby Bella is one. Here is another I just ran across. The mother (who had previously had a child removed from her care) cooperated with the allegedly abusive boyfriend in torturing her 3 year old boy and hiding his body in a freezer when he "accidentally" died. She ended up shooting her boyfriend. There has not been an arrest so far, a year later.

These horror stories happen far too often. I'm not saying it is the case with DeOrr, and I certainly hope it wasn't, but I don't think anything can be ruled out at this point. JMO

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...h-3-Barona-Indian-Reservation-16-January-2015

 

[Lilibet]

I was just thinking about Deorr's boots being 2 (or 3?) sizes too big.

Remember how Deorr Sr. said his son is a "mover". I'm thinking the cowboy boots would have slowed him down a lot. They might've slipped off, or he'd kinda trip over them sometimes.

But who knows, most of the statements by the parents have been shot down. If he was there at the campground (although he very well might not have been) I just don't see him darting all over the place in those boots. If he was even wearing boots.

:banghead:

I was thinking about the boots last night. I can't imagine responsible parents putting their small child (or any age child) in shoes or boots that are too large (or too small) and expecting them to walk safely and without damaging growing feet. I don't care how poor you are or how much a child LOVES certain shoes. Who does that?!! I hope it's another "less than truthful" comment.
JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

Wait what? You're not allowed to take alcohol to a campsite?!

The rules vary. Just check before you go!

eta: I see I've already replied to your comment CMC. Perhaps I was posting in my sleep? I have no memory of it!

 

[neesaki]

Does anyone remember this question that was asked : Is it true that IR did a factory reset of his phone ? (paraphrased). I think I remember the answer was "no comment". I thought it was in the Klein / Bella's FB Q & A but it's not and I haven't found it anywhere else. I know I didn't just make this up .... TIA

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I don't know why. lol

Like I said, I don't believe it was relevant to Deorr's disappearance. But it does make me wonder how far away the cars were parked away from the perimeter. The parents were not allowed inside the perimeter to search at that time. The parents could've done it, but presumably only if nobody else was within range to see or hear something. I also don't think they'd risk it...even if nobody witnessed it, if they were the only ones there it would surely look suspicious once the searchers got back to the car that was possibly parked near where they were. But I believe if that was the case, members of the extended family were there I believe before the searchers, and I don't think they'd all be in on it. I admit it's odd, especially in light of a possible accidental death and subsequent cover up, and that's why the woman in the interview asked about it. SB did seem to totally dismiss it, and maybe that's why so many of you believe it's suspicious. The way he blew it off convinced me that he really didn't think it was related to the case.

I just think it's highly unlikely, but time will tell (hopefully).

I agree that its unlikely to be directly relevant but I won't completely rule it out. Remember though this incident was brought up in an interview that I think was conducted in Idaho Falls and not in Leadore on 13th July?

This means it likely the incident occurred on the Saturday or Sunday just like the cremains incident. If the person/family that did that could get all the way to the reservoir unchallenged..........

I just find it hard to believe in such a remote place, someone would choose to steal from a SAR vehicle during an emergency unless absolutely desperate for some reason.

One thing I might look at again is the words SB has said about this because I can't remember if what he says explicitly confirms the incident happened at all. It would be really interesting if he hasn't. Also, has Klein been asked about the EMT bag? If he says "side show" we'll at least know it isn't directly relevant.

 

[carbuff]

I guess theoretically speaking someone may have wanted it for the supplies to treat some sort of medical emergency . The only scenario I can imagine this in is if for some reason they were afraid to seek medical treatment from a professional.

Somebody injured themselves while disposing of the body and didn't want to call attention to themselves?

 

[DatelineFan]

snip for space

I just find it hard to believe in such a remote place, someone would choose to steal from a SAR vehicle during an emergency unless absolutely desperate for some reason.

One thing I might look at again is the words SB has said about this because I can't remember if what he says explicitly confirms the incident happened at all. It would be really interesting if he hasn't. Also, has Klein been asked about the EMT bag? If he says "side show" we'll at least know it isn't directly relevant.

BBM - EXACTLY! With so much law enforcement and searchers around, this person must have been desperate (if, in fact, it happened).

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I've come to believe that abuse is a possibility, especially after the request for information about interactions. What you say about hidden abuse is quite true. It would certainly explain a cover up of an accident. The accident may even have been "discipline" carried too far which would be obvious and result in charges.



http://www.helpguide.org/articles/abuse/child-abuse-and-neglect.htm

For any who can't imagine a mother allowing her child to be abused or discarded, there are multiple threads with this scenario. Baby Bella is one. Here is another I just ran across. The mother (who had previously had a child removed from her care) cooperated with the allegedly abusive boyfriend in torturing her 3 year old boy and hiding his body in a freezer when he "accidentally" died. She ended up shooting her boyfriend. There has not been an arrest so far, a year later.

These horror stories happen far too often. I'm not saying it is the case with DeOrr, and I certainly hope it wasn't, but I don't think anything can be ruled out at this point. JMO

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...h-3-Barona-Indian-Reservation-16-January-2015

JM has a record of something including lost of custody of her older children to her ex because of physical abuse. Please google, I can't find it now.

 

[neesaki]

Somebody injured themselves while disposing of the body and didn't want to call attention to themselves?

Hmmm, TBH that specific scenario hadn't occurred to me. :thinking: But who knows?

 

[minnermomma]

The only reason why I'm interested in the EMT bag is simply down to the way we found out about it. The firm way the lady tried to get the parents [B]to "address" it[/B] and the reluctance of them to discuss it.

So why did this lady do this and why haven't we heard anything about it again if she thought it so important? Even SB comes across sketchy when asked about it!

I wonder who the lady is.. JM's mom maybe or some part of the family? When they talk about family during interview, I notice they both looked to the area of the room where this lady was at.

And if so, why would the family think it was so important and would maybe be advantageous to finding little DeOrr? Guess Nate would know who it was and why he didn't address it.

Also from that first interview, the first time I saw it when they were relating their tale of the hike, the looks they exchanged made me think they were off doing pot or the horizontal mambo or something they were not comfortable sharing. In retrospect now, maybe they were just trying to get their "stories" straight.

I sure hope something comes to light soon ..I dream about this poor beautiful baby and they are not pleasant dreams.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Oh, I think this is definitely a possibility. I think either Deorr's body had evidence of prior abuse and/or the way he died was a result of negligence the parents committed in the past. My hunch for awhile that this is why they panicked and hid the body.

I still don't know what happened, but I think prior injuries/neglect are what influenced the parents' actions.

JMOpion, subject to change.

The filthy, bawling child may have been indeed little Deorr, on the hand/arm of his father (or someone else) on Thursday 6:00pm.
What if little Deorr cried because of much pain already then and got later on some "bad treatment" which caused (more) internal injuries? Perhaps 8:00am next morning he was still somehow alive but last seen, then he "disappeared". - One of several possibilities.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I wonder who the lady is.. JM's mom maybe or some part of the family? When they talk about family during interview, I notice they both looked to the area of the room where this lady was at.

And if so, why would the family think it was so important and would maybe be advantageous to finding little DeOrr? Guess Nate would know who it was and why he didn't address it.

Also from that first interview, the first time I saw it when they were relating their tale of the hike, the looks they exchanged made me think they were off doing pot or the horizontal mambo or something they were not comfortable sharing. In retrospect now, maybe they were just trying to get their "stories" straight.

I sure hope something comes to light soon ..I dream about this poor beautiful baby and they are not pleasant dreams.

BBM.


I plead the fifth.

 

[Lilibet]

JM has a record of something including lost of custody of her older children to her ex because of physical abuse. Please google, I can't find it now.

In fairness to JM, the story I heard was that she let her ex have custody because his situation was more stable for the kids than hers. It's probably all SM rumors anyway, but at least it's more benign than losing custody for abuse. JMO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

The rules vary. Just check before you go!

eta: I see I've already replied to your comment CMC. Perhaps I was posting in my sleep? I have no memory of it!

Brilliant! :doh:

 

[bessie]

The only reason why I'm interested in the EMT bag is simply down to the way we found out about it. The firm way the lady tried to get the parents to "address" it and the reluctance of them to discuss it.

So why did this lady do this and why haven't we heard anything about it again if she thought it so important? Even SB comes across sketchy when asked about it!

It's a red herring. The producer was curious about it at the time. She reads FB, or heard the gossip from another source. LE told the parents not to talk about it until it had been checked out. It was. It was nothing. End of story. JMO

Also JMO, but I think a LEO was present off camera. That's the norm for that situation.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Somebody injured themselves while disposing of the body and didn't want to call attention to themselves?

But they risked calling attention to themselves when breaking into a truck and stealing a bag when searchers were in close proximity? Nah...

 

[bluesneakers]

JM has a record of something including lost of custody of her older children to her ex because of physical abuse. Please google, I can't find it now.

I hadn't heard this before. Were there any charges?

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

It's a red herring. The producer was curious about it at the time. She reads FB, or heard the gossip from another source. LE told the parents not to talk about it until it had been checked out. It was. It was nothing. End of story. JMO

Also JMO, but I think a LEO was present off camera. That's the norm for that situation.

Then I don't understand why someone (e.g. SB) hasn't just simply stated it is a unrelated incident that is being/been dealt with. End of story/speculation for me at least.

 

[bluesneakers]

In fairness to JM, the story I heard was that she let her ex have custody because his situation was more stable for the kids than hers. It's probably all SM rumors anyway, but at least it's more benign than losing custody for abuse. JMO

It would have to be something really bad if she doesn't have unsupervised visitation with them. This is the first I've read about abuse, though that would explain if she has no visitation or only supervised visits.

People keep saying she lost custody but it might be arranged that way, not necessarily she "lost" her kids. (I went through this and people are judgmental and heartless if you're a mother who doesn't have full custody of your child.)

 

[carbuff]

What are your thoughts on the emt bag?

Well, first of all, it's not that unusual to have things stolen at trailheads and campgrounds. Vehicles are left parked for prolonged periods and you can usually hear other vehicles or voices quite a distance away, so chances of getting caught are pretty slim. We don't know where this vehicle was parked relative to the others, but everybody was probably out searching, not hanging around beside a parking are that might have been half a mile or more from where the search was going on.

An addict tends to see anything medical as a potential source of drugs until proven otherwise, so I can easily picture somebody driving past (from fishing, or tending their wildcat marijuana patch, or whatever) grabbing the bag on the way past, then throwing it out out if it didn't have what they wanted.

Also, it was at least a day after DeOrr went missing, so it's hard to see what anybody who harmed him would want with it.

So logically I agree that it shouldn't have anything to do with DeOrr's case, but it's just one more thing that doesn't fit.

I kind of have this mental picture of one of the adults knowing the child is dead, trying to keep it from the others, quickly hiding the body and maybe trying to tell the others they don't need to call for help yet, just keep searching, and in a constant panic, realizing the body is going to be found and having to move it but not sure how--

I dunno. It's probably nothing.