ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[persimmon]

I don't believe for a second that SB really just changed his mind about the situation in mid-january. Half the nation could tell the parents were lying about what happened well before that, and I would hope that being a sheriff he would have a half-decent hinky-meter himself. Jmo.

Agreed, and I probably didn't state my thoughts very clearly. I'm just thinking that having his thoughts supported by individuals in his field who he admits are far better trained and experienced in analyzing evidence and drawing conusions removed any lingering doubts or questions. Imo that would provide a slightly different landscape from which to view the individual pieces as they pertain to the whole. Jmo

 

[neesaki]

Wasn't "inconclusive" concerning the polygraphs of the parents a misprint or misquote? We discussed this I think it was yesterday? EIN used the term "less than truthful" in the original article, and the other news source reported it second hand and misquoted them.

I've just been trying to make sense of how someone can be untruthful on key questions and not have failed the polygraph. And according to this, as well as on several other polygraph websites, being deceptive on one or more questions results in a "failed" polygraph, not an inconclusive one.

http://www.privatecop.com/ploygraph-lie-detector/polygraph-frequently-asked-questions.html#What_does_it_mean_when_someone_fails_a_polygraph_test

What does it mean when someone fails a polygraph test?

When a polygraph examiner concludes that deceptive reactions are observed on the polygraph charts in one or more of the examinee’s answers to the test questions, the examinee is said to have “failed” the polygraph test. Deception is indicated when the examinee’s Autonomic Nerv*ous System displays a significant and repetitive “defensive” reaction to one or more of the rele*vant test questions. Although this reaction in itself in not a “lie,” years of research has shown that 90 to 95 percent of the examinees who display this reaction were either lying to the relevant test questions or was withholding pertinent information relating to the relevant test questions. Frequently, an examiner will conclude only that “the examinee cannot be excluded as a suspect” when deceptive reactions are present. It is important to note that some examinees will “fail” a polygraph test even though they are telling the literal truth, but they continue to hold back pertinent or incriminating information from the examiner.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

They don't even need a smoking gun. Plenty of people are convicted from circumstantial evidence.

I know it is different in America but the circumstantial case that sticks out for me is the Suzanne Pilley case in Scotland. Zero physical evidence and never been found but a compelling story/timeline presented by police told all.

 

[Donjeta]

Does anyone besides me wonder how Klein was able to arrive at the conclusion, 4-6 months after DeOrr disappeared, that he had not been abducted (kidnapped) nor taken by an animal? How could these possibilities have been investigated after so much time had passed?

I think probably because they've been getting to the conclusion that something else happened. They've realized the camping party lied about some stuff and the animal attack theory just doesn't seem to explain all the story changes. There could be some evidence of Deorr getting hurt at the camp and things getting cleaned up that just came back from the lab or something. There could be many kinds of evidence that they'd expect to find if it was an animal attack or a stranger abduction that simply weren't there.

 

[Dee10]

They all went were the evidence led them and still are.

 

[ILOKAL]

There is a Constitution in this country, and LE can't force a confession.

The two named suspects have failed -- multiple times -- key questions on their polygraphs.

LE does not share with the public everything they have or know.

Right, but a confession can be and often is "coaxed", which is the term I used.

I've read nothing that says the parents have "failed" key questions on their polygraphs. Do you have a link in support of that statement?

Indeed, LE does not share with the public all they have or know, no matter how much or how little.

Imo

 

[ILOKAL]

I think probably because they've been getting to the conclusion that something else happened. They've realized the camping party lied about some stuff and the animal attack theory just doesn't seem to explain all the story changes. There could be some evidence of Deorr getting hurt at the camp and things getting cleaned up that just came back from the lab or something. There could be many kinds of evidence that they'd expect to find if it was an animal attack or a stranger abduction that simply weren't there.

I don't disagree, but I DO wonder what evidence of an abduction or an animal attack Klein would expect to find 4-6 months later.

 

[ILOKAL]

I'm sure LE has tried to get a confession, but it sounds like the parents aren't interested in telling the truth. It seems like a game to them.

That's my point exactly regarding the possibility of conclusive physical evidence. If LE DID have such evidence, I would think a confession from ONE might have been obtained. I just don't think it appears there is any physical evidence that indicates a crime was committed in the disappearance of DeOrr. jmoo! Of course.

 

[ILOKAL]

Actually, the very first article, the ORIGINAL article, quoted Bowerman saying the parents were "deceptive" in their polygraph. If you didn't see that article almost immediately, then you missed it. It was quickly changed to read "less than truthful". That same article said all of the polys came back inconclusive. Surely I'm not the only one who saw the original article. We KNOW it existed, because Bowerman addressed it in his interview with TG.

 

[ILOKAL]

I know it is different in America but the circumstantial case that sticks out for me is the Suzanne Pilley case in Scotland. Zero physical evidence and never been found but a compelling story/timeline presented by police told all.

Many smoking guns are circumstantial evidence, because direct evidence isn't always available and when it is, it is often unreliable. IMO

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I'd really like to hear the other two 911 calls. I want to hear urgency in those calls, unlike the emotionless voice of JM during hers. She might have been emotionally drained from their "search," but I doubt it. One would think she would have been keyed up. After all, her baby was "missing"! We haven't heard a peep out of GGP, written or otherwise, so I can't even begin to imagine what the tone of his call was. DK. Hmmmm... I have a feeling he was telling the operator how glad he was to have a truck that could quickly haul butt up the road and how badly he wanted SAR to get there because he knew they'd be able to do a good job.

 

[ILOKAL]

I assume he and LE have found some damning evidence and quite possible testimony as well. He did say basically Deorr is deceased and all that is left to figure out is why not how. If you know someone is deceased it stands to reason they weren't abducted or taken by animals. Remember items have been seized and sent to the FBI crime lab. There is a great chance LE and the PI know information that isn't being released at this time. I still feel LE wants to find a body before they make arrests. Assuming that day comes to pass lots of additional information will be released.

Klein can speak much more freely as he isn't an actual LE officer. As much as we the general public want information LE has very little incentive to release details of their investigation until charges are brought.

I believe Klein indicated it is his opinion that DeOrr is deceased.

 

[neesaki]

Right, but a confession can be and often is "coaxed", which is the term I used.

I've read nothing that says the parents have "failed" key questions on their polygraphs. Do you have a link in support of that statement?

Indeed, LE does not share with the public all they have or know, no matter how much or how little.

Imo

True, SB has never use the term "failed" or even "deceptive" (i.e., since he changed the verbiage), instead he has used the term "less than truthful" and "inconsistent".

For instance, in the interview with Tricia, he uses "less than truthful" and "multiple inconsistencies". Which to me, means the same thing as deceptive, if so that would mean they failed the polygraphs.

OTOH, I suppose he could be using ambivalent terminology for a specific reason, for which he hasn't disclosed... as you say, LE doesn't share with us what they really know. Maybe it's simply strategical, which actually wouldn't surprise me. JMO

TG: Well, we have a ton of questions, but let me just start out with a basic question.
What changed your mind from the last time you were on the show not that long ago and you were pretty emphatic that, Hey, the parents they’re not, No, No, No, don’t – they’re fine, leave them alone. What changed?

02:13
SB: Well, after a pretty intense investigation and what I consider a lengthy investigation, we asked all the parties involved to take polygraphs. We were expecting a couple of them to come back inconclusive, and that would be the grandfather and the grandfather’s friend. However, the first polygraph indicated that the parents were being less than truthful, and that concerned me, but you know I take polygraphs with a certain grain of salt so… I sent out their interviews to the FBI, their Behavioral Team. They examined them and found multiple inconsistencies, and so we asked them to re-polygraph, and they said they would, and the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th polygraphs, the same conclusion was made by the experts that they are being less than truthful. They know what happened and where Deorr is currently.

 

[The Apparition]

I believe Klein indicated it is his opinion that DeOrr is deceased.

And...

I believe LE also "strongly inferred" they believe Deorr is deceased. No one is making funeral plans yet because the body hasn't been located. The experts working the case have made it clear they are expecting to find a body not a missing child. Unless and until a body is found I understand people can cling to hope. I am in the camp that sadly Deorr has passed and we are looking at a criminal case, not a Bigfoot abduction, or overly complex adoption scheme.

 

[DatelineFan]

And...

I believe LE also "strongly inferred" they believe Deorr is deceased. No one is making funeral plans yet because the body hasn't been located. The experts working the case have made it clear they are expecting to find a body not a missing child. Unless and until a body is found I understand people can cling to hope. I am in the camp that sadly Deorr has passed and we are looking at a criminal case, not a Bigfoot abduction, or overly complex adoption scheme.

Agree. I also don't think child has anything to do with it.

 

[Donjeta]

I don't disagree, but I DO wonder what evidence of an abduction or an animal attack Klein would expect to find 4-6 months later.

An animal is not likely to make an effort to conceal his tracks so there easily could be pieces of torn clothing and his boots found somewhere. That dingo baby in Australia, they found some clothing six years later. So, maybe later...

If there was an abductor and they found no trace of him in the original investigation, it seems likely he'd get away forever, in an area with few witnesses and fewer surveillance cameras, but if someone told you some BS trying to point to an abductor that they made up you might be able to rule the stories out later.
Maybe there are some witnesses along the roads leading away from the campsite who can tell they saw no unknown vehicles in which an abductor could have gotten away in.

 

[Little Ol Me]

There is a Constitution in this country, and LE can't force a confession.

The two named suspects have failed -- multiple times -- key questions on their polygraphs


LE does not share with the public everything they have or know.

No, LE can not force someone to confess. However they can and do try their best to elicit a confession from someone they suspect of committing a crime.
I have no trouble believing that LE did coerce VK & JM into confessing to something. Most likely using their inconsistences and polygraph results.
Which is most likely why VK obtained an attorney.

 

[Tr.]

If any biological evidence had been found, and identified, that would seem to be a smoking gun, IMO. Yet I just don't get the impression from Bowerman OR Klein that there is anything even CLOSE to a smoking gun.

I agree. I believe SB when he says he "has no clue" what transpired for sure.
It sounds as though the jump from poi's to suspects is based solely on interviews (including those from Klein's office) and polygraphs, and analysis of same by FBI.
[video=youtube;Mhl3V4cAY6Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mhl3V4cAY6Y[/video]

If they had DNA they would have already determined foul play and made an arrest..imo
It's all good...SB has us to help sort this out.

 

[ClaireNC]

True, SB has never use the term "failed" or even "deceptive" (i.e., since he changed the verbiage), instead he has used the term "less than truthful" and "inconsistent".

For instance, in the interview with Tricia, he uses "less than truthful" and "multiple inconsistencies". Which to me, means the same thing as deceptive, if so that would mean they failed the polygraphs.

I don't want to get into this discussion, but just want to point out that he did actually use the word "failed" in his interview with Tricia.

03:17
TG: Are you certain that there’s no way Deorr could be in the water anywhere? That’s a big question that a lot of people have because …Couldn’t Deorr’s body be stuck under a rock or just possibly something like that happened?

03:35
SB: You know I dwelled on that fact for a long time but I have to trust the experts. They say when both people failed the same questions multiple times, there is something there and they’re being less than truthful, so I have to trust the experts.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12319129#post12319129

 

[bluesneakers]

Right, but a confession can be and often is "coaxed", which is the term I used.

I've read nothing that says the parents have "failed" key questions on their polygraphs. Do you have a link in support of that statement?

Indeed, LE does not share with the public all they have or know, no matter how much or how little.

Imo

Does less than truthful mean passing?