ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[Lillahazel]

People don't like to interfere... People don't like to make assumptions or judge... people think it's rude to ask questions... People like to always give parents the benefit of the doubt and make excuses for them... And frankly, people don't want to believe that it's happening.

Many people want to pass off the child abuse theory because they put themselves in the SUSPECTS shoes instead of the suspect. If there was child abuse it would mean the answer was right under our nose. "If you want to hide something do it in plain sight" always comes to mind. I've waited many months and for them to be named suspects before posting my thoughts about this case. I passed the "accident" empathy stage 7 months ago and have no problem discussing any and all theory's. Abuse included. Sweet little Deorr was failed no matter the outcome.

 

[Lillahazel]

People don't like to interfere... People don't like to make assumptions or judge... people think it's rude to ask questions... People like to always give parents the benefit of the doubt and make excuses for them... And frankly, people don't want to believe that it's happening.

This statement made me think of one of the things I learned in Psychology called the "Bystander effect". It was many years ago that I took that class but that topic always stuck with me all these years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

 

[persimmon]

I agree with this and it saddens me. I've actually had to call the police once or twice on people not supervising their young children. I manage an apartment complex and have had young one's running around outside with no adult and I was not able to find the parents or reach them by phone.

On a more personal note, my mother called cps on my step sister, not because she was abusing her kids, but she had an alcohol dependence, driving under the influence, her boyfriend was what we think a psychopath. This man had no empathy for anyone, a drug abusing narcissist, he stole, lied and eventually went to prison. Our family was in a constant state of worry for her and the kids. He threatened to kill them all and himself, it was madness. She has since cleaned up her act and moved her and her kids away to stay straight.

I do think people are complacent and should instead just be aware and go with their gut. Speak up!

I'm not a difficult person but I have made a lot of enemies because I feel it's my duty to do everything in my power to help protect those without power. There's a lot of uneven playing field out there and we have to pick our battles but I refuse to ever backdown when I know or even strongly suspect that children, the elderly, or animals are being abused, including neglect. I have learned not to personally confront abusers because they often take it out on the victim, but I let them know I'm aware and I call all agencies immediately. Since response is often delayed, depending on the circumstances etc., I then monitor and document. I will call the proper agencies and authorities every day. Eventually, a fear of liability if nothing else will spark action. When I see the system failing, and this only pertains to animals and only when I have seen abuse and have no doubt...I will take peoples animals. That probably sounds awful but I think its the right thing to do.

My attitude is shine the light on abuse. Keep shining it. I'm not embarassed or apologetic about my behavior and I never assume it's somebody elses problem. The more people who intervene the better. I agree with you about complacency and I believe anybody who ignores abuse is culpable. Darkness cannot exist if its continually exposed to light. Seeing these cases and photos just sickens me to my core. These helpless kids need heroes they need lots of help. I wish everybody would make a personal committment to helping those that cannot help themselves. The positive impact would be immeasurable...we're all in this together.

Good night.

 

[Trident]

There are some good, interesting posts here about child abuse. The words make sense, are very straight forward and sound right - of course right, how could anyone doubt.

BUT, life is never that cut, dried or simple. I know, I've been going through this in my own family for years. School administrators said they saw problems, but no one did anything about it. Doctors said they saw doctor and hospital shopping, and "perhaps" medical neglect. Yet, no one did anything about it. LE was called and they saw a "problem", one that would have gotten most people arrested IMO, yet they said the children looked all right and had no problem. CPS WAS called by a lot of people. They just made an "appointment". An "appointment", LOL. How many times have we seen that happen? Any time family wanted to "talk", they were excluded from the children's lives - cut off totally. That put paid to any information on their well being, and it was legal. I could go on. . .

Now that the stuff finally hit the fan, and I can't say how on a public board, there are new problems. It is a never-ending battle for sanity and once again the children are suffering in a different way. One thing I do want to say about this is children are often taken out of the home and put in foster care. Quite honestly, there are too many horror stories about foster care. The devil you know is often better than the one you don't.

Now, I'm not afraid to face much of anything, except making possibly unfounded conclusions/diagnosis on a public message board from some pictures and some "words" from SB. I will never forget the parents are "solid" statement. I take everything everyone says these days with a large dose of salt.

I believe we all need to remember that all of our speculation and playing detective will never go away. Words on the internet appear to be here forever and if something entirely different happened, those speculative words will still be here. I would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to "abuse" I have no proof of.

Sorry, well not too sorry, for the rant. This is a topic I also feel strongly about since I'm living it.

:cow:

 

[pepelepolecat]

People don't like to interfere... People don't like to make assumptions or judge... people think it's rude to ask questions... People like to always give parents the benefit of the doubt and make excuses for them... And frankly, people don't want to believe that it's happening.

And while I understand this, I'd always rather err on the side of caution. Parents are adults and have the emotional resources, generally speaking, to deal with an unwanted invasion of their privacy. Kids have no resources and precious few advocates. If you suspect anything at all, call CPS and let them sort it out.

 

[Rayemonde]

Now, I'm not afraid to face much of anything, except making possibly unfounded conclusions/diagnosis on a public message board from some pictures and some "words" from SB. I will never forget the parents are "solid" statement. I take everything everyone says these days with a large dose of salt.

I believe we all need to remember that all of our speculation and playing detective will never go away. Words on the internet appear to be here forever and if something entirely different happened, those speculative words will still be here. I would rather err on the side of caution when it comes to "abuse" I have no proof of.

Sorry, well not too sorry, for the rant. This is a topic I also feel strongly about since I'm living it.

:cow:

Remember, it wasn't even Bowerman that said the parents are "solid". It was the deputy.

And this board would be pretty boring if we refused to speculate on anything until after people were convicted in a court of law. DeOrr's parents are quite capable of sticking up for themselves. They can go to the press, or come here, or take to social media and give their version of events and explain the bruises on DeOrr's face in the pictures. They can explain exactly how they managed to lose their baby in the wilderness, and why they are lying about what happened.

DeOrr was not capable of speaking out for himself, and he still isn't. I refuse to treat his parents with kid gloves now that they have been named suspects. They're not the victims here.

:twocents: :moo:

 

[Butler]

But even if you thought your kids would be better off with their father, why give him full custody? Is that like signing over your parental rights? You could agree for the kids to live with dad whilst still having joint custody, couldn't you?

In Idaho custody is almost always "joint custody", meaning that both parents retain their rights as parents and have to make joint decisions as for what is best for the children. In addition one parent will have "physical" custody, meaning the children live primarily in one parents home. The non custodial parents still retains his/her rights as a parent.

The only time a parent wouldn't have any type of custody is if there is a proven case of abuse or neglect. Given there are pictures of all three children together on JM FB page I would assume it is a joint custody situation.

IMHO - The custody situation between JM and her ex husband is a non issue as far as what happened to DeOrr.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

OT
Indictment in Jessica Chambers murder

 

[SoccerMotha]

On the topic of reporting child abuse and neglect:

When I worked at the shelter I mentioned last night, we took over the child abuse "hotline" two days a week, for DHS. There were numerous times that we were surprised by how much abuse and the duration of the abuse, callers had witnessed before finally picking up the phone! It's truly amazing how much people just don't want to be involved, as Rayemonde mentioned. It's really sad and frustrating! I don't know what we can do in our communities to get people to realize that these kids need help! In my opinion, it's our duty as fellow humans to advocate for children and speak up! We should ALL consider ourselves mandatory reporters.

YESS!! I love this DatelineFan, we should all consider ourselves mandatory reporters. Absofreakinlutely!

 

[zencompass]

As there have been no arrests made as of yet, I was searching out definitions of "probable cause" and "reasonable suspicion." Here is an article I found quite interesting:

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2011/06/probable-cause-and-reasonable-suspicion.aspx

 

[bessie]

As there have been no arrests made as of yet, I was searching out definitions of "probable cause" and "reasonable suspicion." Here is an article I found quite interesting:

http://www.policemag.com/channel/patrol/articles/2011/06/probable-cause-and-reasonable-suspicion.aspx

That's worth bookmarking. The question comes up so often, I hope everyone will read it. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Beezneez]

Speaking as someone who is considered a "mandatory reporter", as I am a nurse, let me tell you it goes miles and miles into an investigation if other people have reported things before it gets to us. It is also infuriating to see a situation where abuse/neglect of any sort goes unreported by people who are obviously aware of it, until it gets to us. I have seen time and time again when family members just didn't have the emotional capacity to report. They were in such strong denial about the situation.
"She just lost her temper a couple of times"
"They really are terribly obnoxious kids"
"She was always pushing him to hard & he just snapped. A guy can only take so much"
"They drank together, he/she should have seen this coming."
"Sometimes kids need to be put in line, it could happen to anyone"
It is sickening to hear, but family violence is a family illness. Often times it is the normal baseline for the family. It doesn't make it right.
*Also- this is a general response to the discussion of reporting abuse. I am not implying that they families are abusive or that abuse is what happened in this case. Just information to consider.

 

[bessie]

Sleuthing family is OFF LIMITS!!

 

[pepelepolecat]

<modsnip>

"Despite highly publicized but irresponsibly quoted statistics that seem to predict adults abused as children will inevitably maltreat their own or other children, survivors much more frequently direct anger and abuse toward themselves in some variation of trauma reenactment syndrome. Correlations between childhood victimization and offender behavior in incarcerated felons—the population most available for study-have no bearing on the lives of functional survivors. In fact, the vast majority of survivors grow up to be fierce protectors of children, determined that no other child will ever be hurt as they were."

http://www.centrefortherapy.ca/sites/default/files/2010 Sept - The cycle of abuse myth_0.pdf

IF (and I say if because it's not proven or even officially alleged as far as I know) JM was an abusive mother, it would not be because of the cards she was dealt. It would be because of a choice she made.

"Contrary to the popular notion of a 'generational cycle of abuse,' however, the great majority of
survivors neither abuse nor neglect their children. Many survivors are terribly afraid that their children
will suffer a fate similar to their own, and they go to great lengths to prevent this from happening.
For the sake of their children, survivors are often able to mobilize caring and protective capacities
that they have never been able to extend to themselves." (from the same link)

Being assaulted, abused or neglected by a parent does not turn a child into an abuser any more than being raped turns one into a rapist.

(Sorry for the somewhat off-topic bent of this post, but it's important. imo.)

 

[Jackeee]

Once again, I've had a lot of catching up to do here so please forgive me if I've missed anything by skimming through.
I understand that JM has joint custody of her children from a previous marriage and that they live with their father for whatever reason.
I wonder if little Deorr was planned or a surprise? It seems unusual to me that she would go into a new relationship and have another child. This is just a random thought of mine. Is my thinking this outdated?

 

[kammiemc]

Once again, I've had a lot of catching up to do here so please forgive me if I've missed anything by skimming through.
I understand that JM has joint custody of her children from a previous marriage and that they live with their father for whatever reason.
I wonder if little Deorr was planned or a surprise? It seems unusual to me that she would go into a new relationship and have another child. This is just a random thought of mine. Is my thinking this outdated?

Where did you hear that/read that JM had joint custody of her kids. That's counter to the info that has been floating out there for the past seven months. But, I don't think anyone has ever been able to post any official info about the custodial arrangement that I know of!)


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[Jackeee]

Where did you hear that/read that JM had joint custody of her kids. That's counter to the info that has been floating out there for the past seven months. But, I don't think anyone has ever been able to post any official info about the custodial arrangement that I know of!)


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I must have misunderstood a posting which of course I can't find now even though it was recently. It was about joint custody in Idaho. They said that JM had once posted a photo of all 3 kids together and from the info I thought the poster meant she had joint custody but not physical custody. BTW 'physical' custody was used by the poster. Guess I'll go slower when I have to catch up.

eta. Please refer to posting 547. Thx

 

[TeaTime]

There is not a scintilla of evidence that baby DeOrr was ever abused by anyone. What some thinks is photographic evidence of bruising is not so evident to others and the discussion of the shape of the alleged bruises and how they allegedly got there is speculative at best.

Strangely enough, I think IR is going to be the one to shed all the light on this case. He was there, he does not have the mental decline that GGP is said to have and he knows more than we have been told that he knows. One thing he said that made an impression with me was something like 'I don't trust people anymore'. This tells me he knows that what is being said by the parents and what really happened are different. I could be wrong.

Yes, of course report child abuse immediately but do not invent it.

After parking behind a car in a parking lot, I heard a small child in the car screaming and noticed that a very large, very angry mother was slapping her toddler's legs and head, telling him to get in the car seat. I stood there staring for a moment, stunned, then realized that this angry, huge, woman was coming my way. "You got a problem?" she growled, all pumped up with fists. I figured she was going to attack me, but stood my ground and replied quietly and calmly, "Yes, whenever a child is being beaten, I have a problem" just as her own mother told her to shut up, get in the car and to stop hitting the child. I watched her give me the finger as she shouted some racial insults my way and drove away. I stood there for a minute trying to comprehend what I just witnessed, it was all so fast. I should have called the police because all I accomplished was to interrupt one beating for this little one. It has haunted me for a couple of years. Moral of the story, don't just stop the assault, call LE. Getting involved means you may be a witness in a criminal case but it is your duty to report anyway and accept whatever your duty requires you to do to finish the job.

 

[Jackeee]

Where did you hear that/read that JM had joint custody of her kids. That's counter to the info that has been floating out there for the past seven months. But, I don't think anyone has ever been able to post any official info about the custodial arrangement that I know of!)


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kammiemc, please read posting 547. This is why I thought joint custody. Not trying to start a rumor.

 

[Butler]

Where did you hear that/read that JM had joint custody of her kids. That's counter to the info that has been floating out there for the past seven months. But, I don't think anyone has ever been able to post any official info about the custodial arrangement that I know of!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I must have misunderstood a posting which of course I can't find now even though it was recently. It was about joint custody in Idaho. They said that JM had once posted a photo of all 3 kids together and from the info I thought the poster meant she had joint custody but not physical custody. BTW 'physical' custody was used by the poster. Guess I'll go slower when I have to catch up.

eta. Please refer to posting 547. Thx

That was my post up-thread. I live in Idaho and know more than a little about child custody laws in Idaho. Generally speaking all custody is joint custody. For a parent to lose any type of custody or visitation there has to have been something significant happening, proven abuse or neglect. I know from looking at JM's record on the Idaho repository there is no indication of a CPS case. While the details of such a case are always sealed, if one knows what to look for an indication can be found.

There is, however, an indication she has some custody of her other two children, from the repository and pictures on her Facebook page. I believe the info "floating" out there for the last seven months is a rumor based on an assumption because her other two children live with their father.