ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[cobalt sky]

JM had to have been the first call that got through. It's possible that VDK & GGP both called prior to JM getting through, but the calls were dropped. Then VDK leaves to "haul down the road" like a reckless maniac & JM was able to get through. That would explain a possible record of outgoing 911 calls prior to the JM conversation that we heard.

But VDK was on the phone with a 911 operator AFTER JM's call was a few minutes into the call, so there would have to be at least one call AFTER her call, especially if any previous calls were dropped. That would be a much more important call for Klein to include in the timeline, not previous calls that were dropped imo.

 

[persimmon]

Since the 911 topic has been floating around so much, I am going to chime in with my take on the subject. Jmo

It's difficult to determine if VDK or JM reached 911 first, but we know there was an overlap because the operator tells us. If the content of those calls didn't jive, we will likely hear about that at some point. As for GGFs call, it would seem that it likely followed JMs or perhaps was aborted. Regardless, the parents had a story to sell and dragging in a corrobative witness in the form of GGF served their needs. I guess I don't find it unusual that GGF called because I think its more of their manipulative behavior. Plus it would create more panic and "shock" as they described it in GGF mind. Scaring GGF would be a great way to cripple him and perhaps throw his aging mind out of whack....essentially to exercise control over him. Idk...there might be more to the 911 calls but I'm not sensing it.

 

[cobalt sky]

IMO the 911 calls, and the order that they were placed, are very important to the timeline. If VDK did call first and his call had dropped, I'm sure we would have heard ALLLL about it in the first interview, as that would have supported his reason for hauling down the road to get service. Honestly, with the way VDK has been so controlling, I'm surprised he allowed her to call 911 at all. Maybe she was never supposed to make that call, and that's why VDK felt so compelled to explain his hauling down the road to call 911. I think a large part of the interview was VDK trying to regain control of the things that he felt he had lost control over the day that DeOrr went missing.

 

[SmartSassyBBW]

Agreed. I think he was probably away in his truck for a separate reason, and they'd coordinated to call at the same time, to make it look like he'd left to make the call. That's why they were so specific about the 2:36 timing.
Funny, my suspicions wouldn't even really be raised about his leaving in his truck if it wasn't for that weird rambling explanation about it.

All he does is ramble. He never makes one complete sentence it's all a mishmash of fragments that don't make any clear sense.


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[cobalt sky]

All he does is ramble. He never makes one complete sentence it's all a mishmash of fragments that don't make any clear sense.


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But there is a purpose for everything he says, that's why it's so fascinating to watch that interview. It's all about him, it's all about control.

 

[The Apparition]

All he does is ramble. He never makes one complete sentence it's all a mishmash of fragments that don't make any clear sense.


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Thank you! It's like some kind of audio clue from a game show where they scramble up normal speech and you have to decipher it. I'm torn between thinking he's the "brains" of the operation and dominating poor JM, or he's terrified of her and is the spokesman for the dirty deed by agreement. Either way if he gets off he should totally star in a reboot of those Ernest movies, know what I mean Vern?

 

[courtneyb]

This discussion today makes me wonder what strategies LE have in play to move this along and what is wise and not wise to discuss and who may be lurking..IDK

- To the the point of the 911 calls, I think it was asked in the first VDK/JM interview who had called and JM replied that her call was at 2:36. VDK stated that when he called the operator informed him that JM was already on the line. therefore it was speculated that GGP was the first caller just ahead of JM. And that would be no surprise imo if JM and VDK returned from the creek walk and began their ruse by creating confusion and panic in GGP and IR. Imo GGP reacted as any frantic parent would and made the call immediately.

- To the point of GGP being involved in a wrong doing or cover up..I don't believe so. I believe that GGP has been played and that he firmly believes that no wrong doing occurred. I also suspect that he may the alibi witness to a 8:00am sighting of Deorr at the campground and therefore the reason for the 8:00am timeline. This may extend to IR as well but either/or I think that both GGP and IR have been played and I suspect that what they think they saw wasn't as it seems.

-IMO the last sighting of Deorr alive outside of the camp was in Leadore by the store clerk that saw a man and a child in a black truck at around 6:30 the night before Deorr disappeared.
In interview #1 with JM/VDK ...JM is asked if there is anything she wanted to mention ..anything of importance and this sighting is what she brought up. VDK admits in this same interview that this was indeed him in the sighting but says that it was the following day and disputes the store clerks account of the sighting as to who and when.
This dispute is crucial to the entire timeline because VDK wants it believed that JM was with him and Deorr during that sighting. He says "We went as a family to pick up a few things".
The store clerk and their account of that sighting is the only thing that links Deorr to a time when he was not with both parents imo by anyone outside the camp.

So, rolling with this scenario for the moment we have the family arriving at the camp around 6pm. Everyone's hungry and tired and they decide to start dinner and maybe need some things. Deorr is still asleep from the long trip so VDK runs back to the store with him in the car seat while JM stays behind to start things. Maybe VDK is tired , hungry, and angry that JM didn't pack the food..maybe. Deorr wakes up, uncomfortable and hungry after now three hours in the car seat and moms not there to change him, feed him, or comfort him.
So what the store clerk saw could have been extremely accurate.imo..."a dirty, crying baby in a black truck"...(with a man).

Whatever happened next happened on the way back to the camp. And whatever that was put VDK into self-preservation mode.
If this were not so then there would be no cause to dispute the store clerks sighting so profoundly. JM with cameras rolling chose to bring up the store clerks story but in doing so she appears ready to debunk the entire account in defense of VDK when suddenly VDK jumps in to dispute only the timeline. A not so well rehearsed corroboration..imo

So, how did JM get on board with all this if she were back at camp when when something went wrong? Simply put she got played and she knows it now..imo
I believe it's possible that VDK duped her into thinking that Deorr found one of his mom's pills in the truck and put it in his mouth. Maybe he claims to have tried to pump the boys stomach and thereby injured his ribs and/or internal organs in the process of trying to save him from an overdose. Making JM believe such a tale would insure her total cooperation because now she's responsible and that sends her in to self-preservation mode.

If Deorr suffered a fracture injury and/or internal organ injury that wasn't as severe but steadily worsened as the night rolled on then I suppose he may have been able to make a trip to the reservoir and back as suggested by the track dogs. Or maybe that walk made things worse and that's why it was the only scent they found. Then again how far could he walk in those boots anyway?

In this scenario the next morning was all a ruse and the trip to Leadore part of an alibi. I have no link to the report of VDK and JM seen pumping gas but it only takes one to pump the gas and usually one will run in to shop for something imo...unless your just there to be seen maybe. And nobody at the store saw that adorable baby boy who should have been up, cleaned up, fed and very active at that time.
This is why there's no good story for who cooked breakfast ...etc (per SM) ...there's just not much to tell.

In this scenario;
VDK may never crack but I believe JM suspected as early as the first interview that VDK's story about what happened on the way back from the store is all bs. She can't be sure and unless convinced that she's not responsible she may never talk either.
The first interview is very telling imo..and while this scenario sounds strange, this case is strange, the characters are strange and I suppose my imagination is strange too.
But i just can't help but wonder why JM simply cant stop looking at VDK's right hand during that interview as she clutches the blanket she brought her baby home from the hospital wrapped in...idk

The receipt from that morning trip to the store in Leadore will help to calculate time and distance in searching for Deorr...imo

Feel free to shoot holes because if this is wrong then Im definitely back to the Mountain Lion theory.

Where are the links to those mountain lion videos again??

Very possible. Not too much hole picking from me. Maybe The reason JM appears so furious in those interviews is because she is furious with HIM. And at this point, knows she is bound to get in trouble for something, so she isn't ready to talk yet. I had mentioned a while back that I thought only one of them was responsible for his disappearance and that by naming them both suspects, the one who knew but wasn't ultimately responsible, would roll over.

Except I do think that GGP knows. He may not have known initially, but I think he quickly figured it out. And IR knows too, maybe not initially as well.


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[courtneyb]

IMO the 911 calls, and the order that they were placed, are very important to the timeline. If VDK did call first and his call had dropped, I'm sure we would have heard ALLLL about it in the first interview, as that would have supported his reason for hauling down the road to get service. Honestly, with the way VDK has been so controlling, I'm surprised he allowed her to call 911 at all. Maybe she was never supposed to make that call, and that's why VDK felt so compelled to explain his hauling down the road to call 911. I think a large part of the interview was VDK trying to regain control of the things that he felt he had lost control over the day that DeOrr went missing.

And that could be why he emphasized being "so blessed" that JM got through. Like, "see... If I did something to DeOrr and this was part of my plan, not for JM to make that call, I'd be upset about it, but I'm not. I'm 'blessed' by it. So, no plan here by me. Because I didn't do anything."

ETA- it wouldn't surprise me if they had argued about her deviating from plan and making that call and her trying to explain and him saying something along the lines of, "Oh, yeah, you HELPED all right. Sure, I'm sure that it won't make us look even more like liars. That phone call you made wasn't a massive mistake, it was a BLESSING...thanks for HELPING!" And then he made that reference in the interview, causing her to look like she wants to punch someone. In his mind - That someone being him, while he is fixing her mistakes, as usual, and thank god he is so good at it. Not being smart enough to realize that when you emphasize something that doesn't seem important and shouldn't be, especially if you're under scrutiny, it makes that thing seem really important.

Does that make sense?


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[Deleted member 102539]

IMO the 911 calls, and the order that they were placed, are very important to the timeline. If VDK did call first and his call had dropped, I'm sure we would have heard ALLLL about it in the first interview, as that would have supported his reason for hauling down the road to get service. Honestly, with the way VDK has been so controlling, I'm surprised he allowed her to call 911 at all. Maybe she was never supposed to make that call, and that's why VDK felt so compelled to explain his hauling down the road to call 911. I think a large part of the interview was VDK trying to regain control of the things that he felt he had lost control over the day that DeOrr went missing.

I imagine: 3 relatives - GGP, JM, VDK - were disunited because of the decision when to call 911 (immediately or later) and what to say exactly (if "disappeared", how long "disappeared" etc.). One of them had made the decision, the others didn't want to follow but had to, not revealing anything. During the interview VDK explained "to death", JM said nothing important but was disapprovingly looking, GGP suddenly was "on oxygen" (how convenient). It looked like JM had caused the whole problem, VDK had taken the "rescue" in his (clumsy) hands and GGP (maybe DK sr. also) perhaps was sharply watching if the "kids" did well in saving the reputation of the whole extended family.
:dunno:

 

[Rayemonde]

Earlier today, the boyfriend/"adoptive dad" took a plea in the Colton Turner case... Twenty years. His lawyer said the boyfriend was the one who led police to Colton's body and had it not been for that, the little boy might have never been found. The lawyer stated Michael was remorseful about what had happened. He will probably testify when the mother's case comes up.

"Police say Meagan Work changed her stories many times about what happened to Colton but it was Michael who led them to a shallow grave where his body was found. Michael pled guilty to two counts of tampering with evidence stemming from burying Colton’s body before removing him and burying him in a different location. He also pled guilty to 2nd degree Reckless Injury to a Child by Omission, a lesser charge than Intentional Injury to a Child, a 1st degree crime."

http://kxan.com/2016/02/26/boyfriend-charged-in-colton-turner-case-expected-to-plead-guilty/

I actually find this sentence quite heartening in relation to DeOrr's case... Of course 20 years is nothing for what they did, but he got 20 years just for tampering with evidence, and failing to get medical help for Colton. Not murder. And this is even though he quickly confessed, and led LE to the body.

So even if LE can't prove exactly what happened to DeOrr (eg if he was murdered by one of the parents, and if so which one did it), as long as they can make a strong case that they hid his body, and any other charges they can come up with (eg. Child abuse, child abuse by omission, child endangerment, lying to LE, falsely soliciting donations...) hopefully they will still go to prison for a long time.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Thanks, but I still can't see anything about violence in *early* dementia in those links. Just violence in dementia that had advanced to the stage that acute hospitalisation is needed (in the first study), and third study found that violence and verbal outbursts are more likely when hallucinations and delusions are present - although it did note that violence was not correlated with the severity of the dementia, but that doesn't mean that any people with *early* dementia were even included in the study - it might be referring to people with more or less severe advanced dementia.

IF the GGP always had been a hot-tempered patriarch then his family had/has life-long fear of his behavior and wouldn't say a single word until ... IMO

 

[MistyM]

okay so if we take JM's 911 call and dissect it by 'fact' (times and places etc) what discrepancies could come up that GGP and/or VDK would have cause


(sorry for bad grammar, going to bed right now, gonna check out the transcript tomorrow)

 

[MBK]

Feel free to shoot holes because if this is wrong then Im definitely back to the Mountain Lion theory.

Not going to shoot holes in your theory. I LOVE theories. Here's the thing . . . your theory would suggest that the family started out for "the mountain" waaaay earlier than we had thought. Of course, this makes sense given the sheriff's comment about EARLY AFTERNOON or early evening!

I also firmly believe that something happened on Thursday, which was why we weren't TOLD about Thursday by the parents at first . . . we thought that they arrived on Friday. (For the same reason, I now believe that IR is KEY, which is why he wasn't mentioned at ALL in the parents' first "story" of their camping trip. He knows something, saw something, is not "with the plan". )

I'm not quite sure that it makes sense for them to have arrived at the campsite first and then gone back for "food" and left Jessica. Maybe! I mean, why not stop on the way? Surely they knew "gee, we're supposed to be on a few day camping trip, and we didn't bring anything to eat, no hotdogs, no chili in a can, not even fixins for s'mores!" I mean, they could hardly expect to survive on "the catch of the day". Anyway. I still think that whatever happened may fit in with a mom n' pop drinking at the bar and grill and leaving little Deorr in the car scenario. Not sure how the filthy fits in, how it happened, whether it was from getting out of the car when Mom and Dad were in the bar n' grill, and falling and hurting himself, or whether it was done by the parents to "cover up" bruising, but the filthy is somehow important.

 

[persimmon]

Not going to shoot holes in your theory. I LOVE theories. Here's the thing . . . your theory would suggest that the family started out for "the mountain" waaaay earlier than we had thought. Of course, this makes sense given the sheriff's comment about EARLY AFTERNOON or early evening!

I also firmly believe that something happened on Thursday, which was why we weren't TOLD about Thursday by the parents at first . . . we thought that they arrived on Friday. (For the same reason, I now believe that IR is KEY, which is why he wasn't mentioned at ALL in the parents' first "story" of their camping trip. He knows something, saw something, is not "with the plan". )

I'm not quite sure that it makes sense for them to have arrived at the campsite first and then gone back for "food" and left Jessica. Maybe! I mean, why not stop on the way? Surely they knew "gee, we're supposed to be on a few day camping trip, and we didn't bring anything to eat, no hotdogs, no chili in a can, not even fixins for s'mores!" I mean, they could hardly expect to survive on "the catch of the day". Anyway. I still think that whatever happened may fit in with a mom n' pop drinking at the bar and grill and leaving little Deorr in the car scenario. Not sure how the filthy fits in, how it happened, whether it was from getting out of the car when Mom and Dad were in the bar n' grill, and falling and hurting himself, or whether it was done by the parents to "cover up" bruising, but the filthy is somehow important.

Filthy is such a strong word, and I imagine a store clerk who works near a campground sees her share of dirty kids. It makes me wonder...there might be something to the dirt as makeup theory. That is very sad image.

 

[Rayemonde]

Filthy is such a strong word, and I imagine a store clerk who works near a campground sees her share of dirty kids. It makes me wonder...there might be something to the dirt as makeup theory. That is very sad image.

But the store clerk doesn't even remember seeing a child. That's the strange thing. Why bring up a filthy, bawling child when the clerk never even saw a filthy, bawling child?

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

But the store clerk doesn't even remember seeing a child. That's the strange thing. Why bring up a filthy, bawling child when the clerk never even saw a filthy, bawling child?

I'm still unsure whether there were two store clerks. JM, when relating the filthy, bawling child story said: "One of the ladies at the store said"

If there were two store clerks could it be that one witnessed the filthy, bawling child and the other is the witness that served JM and VDK?

Does anyone know if there were two store clerks working there?

 

[Rayemonde]

I'm still unsure whether there were two store clerks. JM, when relating the filthy, bawling child story said: "One of the ladies at the store said"

If there were two store clerks could it be that one witnessed the filthy, bawling child and the other is the witness that served JM and VDK?

Does anyone know if there were two store clerks working there?

You'll have to take it as rumour because I think it's been deleted now, but JM said on facebook that the store clerk first said she saw a filthy bawling baby, then changed her story and said she didn't remember seeing a baby. Which sounds pretty unlikely to me. I think it's more likely J and V made up the whole thing. Jmo.

 

[mommylicious]

This case is so frustrating. I really wish we had a specific place to discuss SM here. Not a rumor free-for-all but a place to discuss actions taken by the family members & people involved on SM. There are things worth noting & would further the discussion. I understand it would be a nightmare to moderate. Even when I try to be concientious of the TOS I have found myself out of line a couple times! I understand the reasoning behind not allowing it & am not complaining, just sharing a thought. The SM pages related to this case are a disaster but I've also learned a lot from reading through them. Catch-22 I suppose.

I've followed other cases where a thread was set up in the basement to discuss SM posts by various players in the case but I'm not sure what the requirements are for that. Anyone know?

 

[MBK]

But the store clerk doesn't even remember seeing a child. That's the strange thing. Why bring up a filthy, bawling child when the clerk never even saw a filthy, bawling child?

Because SOMEONE may have seen them with a filthy, bawling child? Or, because JM is overly conscious of Deorr being filthy and bawling . . . in whatever scenario led (over the months, even) to his disappearance/death . . . it haunts her . . . the truth has a way of coming out.

 

[carbuff]

But the store clerk doesn't even remember seeing a child. That's the strange thing. Why bring up a filthy, bawling child when the clerk never even saw a filthy, bawling child?

THAT clerk didn't. Maybe another one somewhere else did. When they got diesel earlier? Or after he was already supposed to be missing?

I have not been able to shake the feeling that they gave/sold DeOrr to someone else, probably nothing more sinister than a private adoption; there's quite a market for cute blond kids (I have read). They may have thought there'd be a few days of searching, then it would be, "Oh, the poor bereaved parents. Such a shame we couldn't find the body." And then it would be over and they could go back to normal.

But more often I think one of the parents planned that DeOrr wouldn't come home. I don't think the other parent knew until after the fact.


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