ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[Jackeee]

According to Sheriff Bowerman, he has memory issues. I think that's about all we know for sure.

Thank you desert-blue. I only asked because I have known a couple of people with early signs of dementia or Alzheimer's but I don't profess to know much about either one. BTW, I'm not suggesting GGP has either just because he has memory issues.
The people I knew were known to suddenly blurt out things and take everyone by surprise. One of them would be speaking normally and suddenly break into a rant and say some outrageous and in some cases embarrassing things. The other person would sometimes just stare at someone and after a few uncomfortable minutes would say something accusatory even though they didn't really know each other.
Is it possible that GGP may have suddenly remembered something and blurted it out to either LE or a friend and combined with the polygraph results it turned the focus completely on the parents?
These are just thoughts going through my mind.

 

[persimmon]

Ok..I'm just putting this out because for some reason this is how my mind has processed the diesel purchase. I will cite video interview in a moment, but I believe the diesel purchase was made when JM and VDK left camp Friday morning. This would account for Klein's vague answer as it would be a part of his timeline. He has avoided answering too much detail about the timeline. SB and his colleague state that the diesel was purchased Friday morning and I believe they say there is a receipt to verify that. They also stated the gas station had no cameras.
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/lemhi-sheriff-opens-up-about-deorr-kunz-case/

 

[jessie]

Dog notes from our resource page:

"Klein Investigations and Consulting DN There were no hits by the dogs. We will not comment on witness statements as they are now part of the prosectuional issues."

“No remains, no clothing. Nothing up there. The cadaver dogs couldn't find anything. The search dogs couldn't find anything,” said Vilt."

And from https://ksl.com/?sid=35592900&nid=157

"Numerous resources, including helicopters with FLIR (forward looking infrared radiometer), divers, side scan sonar, scent dogs, cadaver dogs, horses, ATVs, and over 300 people, were used," Bowerman said, "with absolutely no sign of the victim."

Surely this suggests that DK was never at the campground?

I only lurk as you are all so well informed, but I am sure that cadaver dogs can trace scent even after much time (and cleaning) has happened.
Does anyone have any information of how LE treat missing children reports? Is it considered 'search & rescue' primarily, but when is the event considered a possible 'crime' so that investigations take on a different, more intense, investigation?

 

[kammiemc]

But we don't know if they used dogs in those searches.

Also, when asked about the homes being searched, Klein added that those searches were voluntary on the part of the POI's. I hope they did get search warrants so that any evidence they found won't be thrown out in court. Surely they did, right?


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[kammiemc]

Ok..I'm just putting this out because for some reason this is how my mind has processed the diesel purchase. I will cite video interview in a moment, but I believe the diesel purchase was made when JM and VDK left camp Friday morning. This would account for Klein's vague answer as it would be a part of his timeline. He has avoided answering too much detail about the timeline. SB and his colleague state that the diesel was purchased Friday morning and I believe they say there is a receipt to verify that. They also stated the gas station had no cameras.
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/lemhi-sheriff-opens-up-about-deorr-kunz-case/

Now I am really confused. I thought when the sheriff and deputy were interviewed, they said that the parents stopped for diesel on the way from IF to Leadore, which would have been Thurs night. When did that change to Fri AM? Or did they stop for diesel twice?

ETA: I just read the article and it reiterates that diesel was purchased en route to Leadore from IF on Thurs. The receipt from Fri is for items bought at the Stage Stop store, not from the diesel stop the preceding day. IMO.


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[Little Ol Me]

Also, when asked about the homes being searched, Klein added that those searches were voluntary on the part of the POI's. I hope they did get search warrants so that any evidence they found won't be thrown out in court. Surely they did, right?


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I believe that LE would have had them sign a consent form before searching.

 

[Little Ol Me]

In the first interview SB, did with NE,, he explains the first 2, initial search dogs tracked Deorr's scent to the reservoir and back to the campsite.
This was before cadaver dogs were used, and before the cremains were dumped.

[video=youtube;FV-h82eVQ1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-h82eVQ1M[/video]

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

It was discussed way back in thread #5 that Vernal's truck had the little jump seats in the back that can't be used legally for a car seat. If Deorr had a car seat it would be belted in the middle of the front seat. There are photos of Vernal's truck here, but I don't think you can see in the windows to see if there was a car seat.

I don't think we've been told when any of Deorr's photos were taken. One can estimate according to his size and clothing. IIRC we don't have any very recent photos, like during the month before he disappeared.

Yes thank you. I do remember that discussion. I just didn't remember the conclusion lol. Isn't it illegal to have a child under a certain age in the front seat even if in a car seat? Not sure where I got that.

 

[Mickshawn]

Would love to know what the diesel purchase was for....Did a little research on diesel fuel and what it's used for..(and a bit of trivia: The inventor of the diesel engine, Rudolf Diesel)...in case you are interested: http://www.eia.gov/Energyexplained/index.cfm?page=diesel_use

 

[persimmon]

Now I am really confused. I thought when the sheriff and deputy were interviewed, they said that the parents stopped for diesel on the way from IF to Leadore, which would have been Thurs night. When did that change to Fri AM? Or did they stop for diesel twice?

ETA: I just read the article and it reiterates that diesel was purchased en route to Leadore from IF on Thurs. The receipt from Fri is for items bought at the Stage Stop store, not from the diesel stop the preceding day. IMO.


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I agree. If you watch the interview it seems the diesel fuel was purchased Friday.

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

I think a truck switch is a possibility. There is definitely something weird with the diesel.


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Okay now I'm thinking of DK's statement regarding "that's a problem because he owns a black truck". IS there something askew with the black truck and the diesel purchase?

 

[desert-blue]

I agree. If you watch the interview it seems the diesel fuel was purchased Friday.

I have always been under the impression it was purchased Thursday evening on the way from Idaho Falls to Leadore (probably somewhere closer to Idaho Falls because diesel isn't available at all stations). I also don't think the Stage Stops sells diesel from what I understand.

 

[Trident]

Not handy, but if you need a link that shows laboratory analysis will distinguish human blood from cat pee, I'll be glad to find one.

I never worried or wondered about cat pee. However, in other cases bleach and a few other things were discussed as lighting up the room when luminol was used. I just hoped you might have a link for that statement, but if not, I can/will research it further for myself. Thx.

 

[desert-blue]

[video=youtube;FV-h82eVQ1M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-h82eVQ1M"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV-h82eVQ1M[/video]

Nate Eaton:
3:40
“Okay. Uh, do you know, did they stop any other places on their way up to Leadore?”

Deputy Penner:
3:45
“Yeah! They stopped to get some diesel fuel.”

3:49
Nate Eaton:
“Diesel fuel…”

3:49
Deputy Penner:
“Yeah!”

Nate Eaton:
“Any surveillance video of that gas station?”

3:52
Deputy Penner:
“No.”

 

[Purplepixii]

Something that's been bugging me. So we know SB plays his cards close to his chest and is very careful when choosing his words. So far it's done him proud, he may have had doubts long before he ever admitted that the parents weren't being truthful and for all we know he may have felt this from the start. He has evidence we are not party to (and rightly so) upon which to form his LE opinion.

One of the things he said in the interview with Tricia on January 28, 2016 really niggles me, especially when we discuss the scent/cadaver dogs and that's this statement from him:


11:10
Bessie: Right, I remember you telling us the last time. One of the other questions that comes up a lot is about the dog searches and the cadaver dogs, and we know that they were thrown off by the cremains in the reservoir, but before or after that did the…did either the scent dogs or the cadaver dogs alert or show any, you know, find anything that was relevant?

11:43
SB: You know, we had a couple alerts you know that were just kind of, we consider nothing major, but um a dog reacts unusual in a certain area and so we put more dogs in there and then the other dogs alerted so, um…you know. Actually, it’s been not real positive from having those dogs in there. We didn’t have anything that really led us to a certain place within our 3 mile radius.

I think, that in line with the way he has conducted this investigation (and himself) to date, that there is something we definitely don't know and that the dogs did hit on something in the vehicle. We just don't know what at this time.


"A couple of alerts"

"other dogs alerted"

To what???

Option 1: They were scent dogs and alerted to the scent of DeOrr Jr which is easily explained as he is bound to have been in the family vehicle in his short life
Option 2: They were cadaver dogs and alerted to cadaverine


If you notice, Bessie mentions both types of dogs. SB doesn't clarify which alerted...

hwow:

 

[desert-blue]

Ok..I'm just putting this out because for some reason this is how my mind has processed the diesel purchase. I will cite video interview in a moment, but I believe the diesel purchase was made when JM and VDK left camp Friday morning. This would account for Klein's vague answer as it would be a part of his timeline. He has avoided answering too much detail about the timeline. SB and his colleague state that the diesel was purchased Friday morning and I believe they say there is a receipt to verify that. They also stated the gas station had no cameras.
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/08/lemhi-sheriff-opens-up-about-deorr-kunz-case/

You just made me think of something that might be possible! [It relates to the truck switcheroo theory]

What IF the receipt for diesel WAS on Friday morning and that is why it was originally thought that they arrived on Friday??? BUT, it was actually their SECOND trip up from Idaho Falls to Leadore (AFTER switching trucks)?

If they drove truck #1 back to Idaho Falls in the early morning hours (because it had evidence in or on it) and then drove truck #2 back up from Idaho Falls, they may have had to stop for fuel and if truck #2 was diesel, that would explain the diesel purchase. The time stamp might be in the morning hours of July 10th (it's never been released, right?).

This would explain so much! The confusion about the day of arrival, the refusal to release the gas purchase time stamp, the highway webcam footage, the refusal to comment on whether any vehicles used diesel, etc.

Perhaps on Thursday they were in DK's newer truck, but on Friday they were in the older truck that has the jump seats in the back (and maybe that one runs on diesel). Maybe???

*** ETA: I should clarify that I do not know if DK's had two trucks - big assumption, and certainly could be wrong. ***

 

[pepelepolecat]

Yes thank you. I do remember that discussion. I just didn't remember the conclusion lol. Isn't it illegal to have a child under a certain age in the front seat even if in a car seat? Not sure where I got that.

A rear-facing carseat should never go in the front seat of a vehicle with airbags. Although a child can (and really should) be rear-facing until they are about three or four if the carseat can accommodate their weight, most kids are turned forward-facing long before that. Mine were turned at two (due to their size, lol). If DeOrr was front-facing, he was probably fine in the front seat since I don't think the truck was new enough to have airbags.

http://www.carseat.org/Resources/FAQs.htm

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Did DK have two trucks??

 

[LookingForClues]

Desert-blue, talk about an ah-ha moment! What you have just suggested certainly does explain quite a few things that have us so stymied. :thud:

 

[Mickshawn]

You just made me think of something that might be possible! [It relates to the truck switcheroo theory]

What IF the receipt for diesel WAS on Friday morning and that is why it was originally thought that they arrived on Friday??? BUT, it was actually their SECOND trip up from Idaho Falls to Leadore (AFTER switching trucks)?

If they drove truck #1 back to Idaho Falls in the early morning hours (because it had evidence in or on it) and then drove truck #2 back up from Idaho Falls, they may have had to stop for fuel and if truck #2 was diesel, that would explain the diesel purchase. The time stamp might be in the morning hours of July 10th (it's never been released, right?).

This would explain so much! The confusion about the day of arrival, the refusal to release the gas purchase time stamp, the highway webcam footage, the refusal to comment on whether any vehicles used diesel, etc.

Perhaps on Thursday they were in DK's newer truck, but on Friday they were in the older truck that has the jump seats in the back (and maybe that one runs on diesel). Maybe???

Boy, do I ever want to see the REAL and TRUE timeline!!