ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #26

[desert-blue]

And if proved false by his ex clients. Then Klein should be sued.

Similar to Nancy Grace when she says bombshell to something that never happened. Jmo

Seems like a hard thing to prove false, but I agree, if Klein is making things up, he should be held accountable. However, SB has also said that their stories keep changing. Even what the public has been told has morphed over time - first it was exploring, then fishing, then fishing with IR, and so on. Who knows...

 

[kammiemc]

To all the posters that do not think I.R seen Deorr alive during the trip.

Do you think I.R is that slow?

Come on. The man said Deorr was there. So what's next? Just asking.

I actually have no clue what to think. He might have seen him. He might have been asked to say that. He might know that something happened but not what. Or he might have seen him at one point but then got misled to believe he was there after the store. Or he might have actually seen him after the store. Or DeOrr could have been suffering from an injury (maybe or maybe not from Thurs night) that didn't look so extreme that it could end in his death. Who really knows?

Klein said "it depends on what statement of his you believe," so maybe he has become more forthcoming with what he is willing to share.

I don't necessarily think any misunderstanding he might have had about whether DeOrr was there at what time and in what condition is tied to lack of mental acuity. DeOrr probably was not the focus of the trip for him. It's not like he was an uncle and it was family trip for him. Since DeOrr was with his parents I doubt IR was on super high alert to make sure he was alive while sleeping, was actually there when his parents were talking to him, had no injuries under his hat, and jacket, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Purplepixii]

And if proved false by his ex clients. Then Klein should be sued.

Similar to Nancy Grace when she says bombshell to something that never happened. Jmo

For his ex clients (actually it was the GPA who wasn't on the trip who signed Klein's contract) to prove Klein false they'd have to be the ones telling the truth. With their track record so far I won't be holding my breath!

 

[kammiemc]

I think that IR did not see DeOrr after the store. I feel it would be impossible for something to have happened to DeOrr (and for it to have been covered up to the extent he has not been found) in a period of about 1.25 to 1.5 hours (they supposedly got back from the store about 1:00/1:15 and the 911 calls were all around 2:30). The only scenario that would fit into this time frame is some sort of arranged abduction, but SB is 100% sure DeOrr wasn't abducted.

After 8:00 AM, their stories don't match. Of course, before 8:00 AM, they could have just said they were sleeping (even if they weren't) and that wouldn't be too hard for them to keep straight. I hope that cell phone data and/or witness information and/or highway cams ares helping LE track their movements after they left the SD on Thursday evening up until they dialed 911.

The timeline is so messy. If DeOrr was truly there after the store (I kind of doubt it because the story they were telling shouldn't have gone off the rails until much later, but IF) I still think there was time for a death to occur (accidental, but especially if it were planned/purposeful) and for DK to haul down the road to hide the remains. Likely? No. But possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DexterMorgan]

I actually have no clue what to think. He might have seen him. He might have been asked to say that. He might know that something happened but not what. Or he might have seen him at one point but then got misled to believe he was there after the store. Or he might have actually seen him after the store. Or DeOrr could have been suffering from an injury (maybe or maybe not from Thurs night) that didn't look so extreme that it could end in his death. Who really knows?

Klein said "it depends on what statement of his you believe," so maybe he has become more forthcoming with what he is willing to share.

I don't necessarily think any misunderstanding he might have had about whether DeOrr was there at what time and in what condition is tied to lack of mental acuity. DeOrr probably was not the focus of the trip for him. It's not like he was an uncle and it was family trip for him. Since DeOrr was with his parents I doubt IR was on super high alert to make sure he was alive while sleeping, was actually there when his parents were talking to him, had no injuries under his hat, and jacket, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Well Dang girl. Lol

I.R is definitely given a possible reasonable doubt.

Which he should be.

Because the parents were so busy covering up other things. Jmo.

But any other case. I.R would be fried by now.

So hopefully he is happy for the sympathy that the sheriff and others has shown him thus far. Jmo

 

[DexterMorgan]

Seems like a hard thing to prove false, but I agree, if Klein is making things up, he should be held accountable. However, SB has also said that their stories keep changing. Even what the public has been told has morphed over time - first it was exploring, then fishing, then fishing with IR, and so on. Who knows...

Lmao. I love my Nancy Grace bombshells for the wrong reasons.

Not because she has breaking news. But because the things she says right after are usually proven a week late and false. Lol.

But I do respect her tenacity.

I just wish that Jane Velez Mitchell had better financial backing that had kept her show alive. Jmo.


But Jane Velez Mitchell should have focused on more human crimes than animal cruelty. Jmo.

She had a good animal cause. But she was competing against the wrong time slot and channel for that cause.

I'm really truly surprised that the animal planet channel hasn't pick her up yet.

Anyways.

 

[jennapuppy]

Lmao. I love my Nancy Grace bombshells for the wrong reasons.

Not because she has breaking news. But because the things she says right after are usually proven a week late and false. Lol.

But I do respect her tenacity.

I just wish that Jane Velez Mitchell had better financial backing that had kept her show alive. Jmo.


But Jane Velez Mitchell should have focused on more human crimes than animal cruelty. Jmo.

She had a good animal cause. But she was competing against the wrong time slot and channel for that cause.

I'm really truly surprised that the animal planet channel hasn't pick her up yet.

Anyways.

I miss the good ol' days at HLN - Vinnie Politan, Joey Jackson, Jinkasaurus......

 

[giagreen]

I think that IR did not see DeOrr after the store. I feel it would be impossible for something to have happened to DeOrr (and for it to have been covered up to the extent he has not been found) in a period of about 1.25 to 1.5 hours (they supposedly got back from the store about 1:00/1:15 and the 911 calls were all around 2:30). The only scenario that would fit into this time frame is some sort of arranged abduction, but SB is 100% sure DeOrr wasn't abducted.

After 8:00 AM, their stories don't match. Of course, before 8:00 AM, they could have just said they were sleeping (even if they weren't) and that wouldn't be too hard for them to keep straight. I hope that cell phone data and/or witness information and/or highway cams ares helping LE track their movements after they left the SD on Thursday evening up until they dialed 911.

True. But then SB cleared it up that it was actually about 3 hours from the time DeOrr went missing till anyone showed up.

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

 

[DexterMorgan]

True. But then SB cleared it up that it was actually about 3 hours from the time DeOrr went missing till anyone showed up.

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

I think that's because SB crew took 3 hrs to actually show up after the initial call.

But I could be wrong.

 

[giagreen]

I think that's because SB crew took 3 hrs to actually show up after the initial call.

But I could be wrong.

I think his crew only took about 2 1/2 hrs and he is figuring in the time from when they first noticed him missing and made the first 911 call came in. Either way that's enough time for everyone to get their stories sorted out.



Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

 

[TeaTime]

While I do not have Klein's exact words, when it is all boiled down, he said the parents are lying, know what happened to their child and that specifically JM admitted that she knows where the child's body is located but refuses to tell LE. Most of this is just Klein's opinion, he does not know with 100% certainty that what he said is true and he isn't privy to the LE interview during which JM allegedly made such a statement.

For the family to prevail in a lawsuit, they would have to show that the statements made are false and that the speaker, Klein, knew they were false when he made them. IMHO the statement that he made about the JM admission to LE is the one that can not be based on opinion and he, Klein, knew it to be false when he made it since he was not present during said interview and is not privy to anything LE has gathered during the investigation. He is loose with his lips. JM's attorney stated that she was fired as a result of Klein's statements and if this is true, the loss of her job would be considered 'actual damages' caused by Klein's untruthful public statement and she would be entitled to compensation for those losses. Idaho may also have punitive damages awards available for such an egregious act.

When one party prevails in civil litigation over another, the court may order the loser to pay fees and costs, however, these are usually just filing fees and the costs associated with the litigation such as court reporters, costs of transcripts, copies, postage, etc. but not the legal fees charged by attorneys. I have never seen nor heard of an award of attorney fees and I am sure some judge, somewhere, awarded it.

Who said there was blood on the truck bumper? This is not from LE is it? Then why is it being tossed around in discussions as if this were a fact?

If I were JM, I would sue Klein and get all of his records, his reports, his video/audio recordings, his expense reports and have my attorneys subject him and his staff to some brutal questioning under oath at deposition. No one is allowed to state as fact and with self-appointed authority something that is not true with a goal to destroy another. Klein can not hide behind ' this is an ongoing investigation' in order to prevent opposing counsel from obtaining all of his records.

If I were JM's attorney, I would go after Klein personally and KIC with a vengeance the likes of which he has never seen. His tough guy, know-it-all-persona and inflated ego would be reduced to a whimper and a simper. His attorney fees would exceed his E&O insurance limits so far that KIC would have to declare bankruptcy and I would destroy him. He bears false witness and deserves no mercy. But, that is just me. You may have a different opinion and let him slide because he was 'just trying to bring DeOrr home'. I would have my high heeled boot on his neck and make him beg forgiveness from the ashes of his former life.

 

[DexterMorgan]

While I do not have Klein's exact words, when it is all boiled down, he said the parents are lying, know what happened to their child and that specifically JM admitted that she knows where the child's body is located but refuses to tell LE. Most of this is just Klein's opinion, he does not know with 100% certainty that what he said is true and he isn't privy to the LE interview during which JM allegedly made such a statement.

For the family to prevail in a lawsuit, they would have to show that the statements made are false and that the speaker, Klein, knew they were false when he made them. IMHO the statement that he made about the JM admission to LE is the one that can not be based on opinion and he, Klein, knew it to be false when he made it since he was not present during said interview and is not privy to anything LE has gathered during the investigation. He is loose with his lips. JM's attorney stated that she was fired as a result of Klein's statements and if this is true, the loss of her job would be considered 'actual damages' caused by Klein's untruthful public statement and she would be entitled to compensation for those losses. Idaho may also have punitive damages awards available for such an egregious act.

When one party prevails in civil litigation over another, the court may order the loser to pay fees and costs, however, these are usually just filing fees and the costs associated with the litigation such as court reporters, costs of transcripts, copies, postage, etc. but not the legal fees charged by attorneys. I have never seen nor heard of an award of attorney fees and I am sure some judge, somewhere, awarded it.

Who said there was blood on the truck bumper? This is not from LE is it? Then why is it being tossed around in discussions as if this were a fact?

If I were JM, I would sue Klein and get all of his records, his reports, his video/audio recordings, his expense reports and have my attorneys subject him and his staff to some brutal questioning under oath at deposition. No one is allowed to state as fact and with self-appointed authority something that is not true with a goal to destroy another. Klein can not hide behind ' this is an ongoing investigation' in order to prevent opposing counsel from obtaining all of his records.

If I were JM's attorney, I would go after Klein personally and KIC with a vengeance the likes of which he has never seen. His tough guy, know-it-all-persona and inflated ego would be reduced to a whimper and a simper. His attorney fees would exceed his E&O insurance limits so far that KIC would have to declare bankruptcy and I would destroy him. He bears false witness and deserves no mercy. But, that is just me. You may have a different opinion and let him slide because he was 'just trying to bring DeOrr home'. I would have my high heeled boot on his neck and make him beg forgiveness from the ashes of his former life.

I think the feds told Klein to hush up. So the parents attorney should no longer have to worry about Klein right now.

They should only concentrate on Deorr and the family staying out of jail. Jmo.

Klein is the least of the families problem at this point. Jmo.

I think Tim Miller also talked to Klein as well; As far as etiquette for dealing with family of victims that you may not trust.

Even if they hired yyou for the wrong reasons. Jmo

 

[neesaki]

I guess my thing is I realized it would be impossible to even begin to wrap my brain around any of this unless if I narrowed down my source. Too many PI saying what they think...and public opinions that I've decided to just base what my facts are off of SB because some of what Klein says goes against what SB says and I felt like I kinda had to pick or nothing would add up. I went with SB because he seems to be the most genuine and cautious. And most of all professional. I'm a firm believer that things get to messy and misconstrued when too many people get involved.

Now sinse SB has come out saying they are being less then truthful and know where DeOrr is. And of course that their story's have changed.....I beleive he had good reasons for this.
Either A)he was stumped and did it to see if they would crack because he was at a dead end.
Or B) he truly beleives they know where he is and what happen.
SB has made comments that support A&B.

If SB thinks they do know what happen to DeOrr then after reading all his interviews over and over I feel like something really did happen after the trip to the store because I don't feel like IR would lie for JM or VDK.

I will say I understand how or why you or others might beleive that IR could easily be mislead. But I don't think he could be that mislead that easily. But it's a touchy subject so I just leave it be.

What I can't figure out is what in the world could of happen after the trip to the store. Or at all really that would need to be covered up other then murder and I don't think murder is what happen here.

One horrible thought is that ggp accidentally hit him with the ax. I could totally see how this could happen. I grew up with a wood stove that heated our house. Spilting wood is harder then it looks. An ax swings harder then you would realize and can be hard to stop once your in mid swing. Ggp was getting older. Maybe he was weaker then he realized as well. It was said that an ax and overalls where taken into evidence. But there is a lot that debunks this idea. But it supports why IR would have a reason to make a statment that support the parents or cover in anyway.

Or I've thought maybe they all just got completely bombed and passed out and DeOrr took off. Them waking up had no clue how long he'd been gone. They looked and lied because they new they'd be in trouble for neglect and not calling 911 soon enough leading to DeOrr being out side of the search area. And parents being less then truthful. But again there's is a lot to debunk this.

There's so many other ideas I had I could go on and on but mostly there is always something that makes me feel it isn't the case.

But through out all this it's always in the back of my brain what if what is simple is true in this case and the simple answer to all this might be DeOrr wondered off. Leading JM amd VDK to know what happen and where he is.

I just don't think they had any of this planned out or that DeOrr was hurt prior to the camping trip. I don't think they have done anything publicly that has raised red flags for me. And I keep thinking one of them would of cracked by now. All just imo.

Sorry my post goes on and on. Today has been my first day in over a two months to actually lay in bed, drink coffe, while my son is with his grandma, and I don't have to work. Lol I'm enjoying this.




Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

I appreciate your well thought out post, giagreen. Though I may be just a bit more suspicious than you, these are some of the same thoughts I've had as well. Even though it's hard to do, I'm really trying not to convict anyone of a crime prematurely.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

It is so surprising the basic timeline from the very beginning is still so sketchy over 8 months later.

Parents claimed time of arrival to camp after store trip= ~1:00 pm/1:10 pm
Claimed/known times of 911 calls= 2:22 pm/2:26 pm/2:28 pm
The approx time of LE and/or SAR turning up is ~4:00pm but that hasn't been very clearly stated AFAIK?

To add to the confusion there is also the issue of whether TBC was there already when LE/SAR turned up. The claimed time she arrived was 4:48 pm.

 

[J4cknsal1y]

I love it when people are able to observe body language and read into what is being said on a deeper level. This is maybe your second post where you've made such observations about the latest interview. I absolutely don't doubt the inferences you've made, but what led you to them? TIA!

I do not have this particular talent myself, however I read an interesting article earlier today that had some info about leakage etc. that I immediately thought of this case.

*the article I am linking below is not specifically related to this case; it is in regards to a case I am somewhat local (about 1.5 hour drive to the county that prosecuted, however I live in the same county that the accused has a cabin he stayed at for days while LE combed his property). I do find the info quite relevant to this case, too, though, if you really think about it!

To illustrate the methodology, let’s look at several of the encounters with Avery, beginning in Episode 2, with a clip we were shown from an interview conducted by a local TV news reporter who spoke with him after Halbach went missing, and before the charred bone fragments that constituted her remains were found in a burn pit on the Avery property. The reporter asked Avery about Halbach, who had been on the Avery property several times in the past year to photograph vehicles for Auto Trader magazine. The reporter asked, “Did she mention any other appointments that day, or anything like that?” This was Avery’s response: “I don’t think so. Because most of the time, she takes a picture, then she writes down the serial number, then she comes and collects the money, and that’s about it.”
Now, consider exactly what Avery said. Asked whether Halbach had mentioned any other appointments that day, Avery detailed the unrelated sequence of events that takes place whenever Halbach comes to his property. He appeared to be eager toconvince the reporter that there was nothing out of the ordinary this time, yet in doing so he qualified his response with the phrases, “most of the time,” and “that’s about it.” The psychology that’s driving the use of those qualifiers is a desire to carve outand withhold information that he had a reason for not wanting to disclose. After all, “most of the time” doesn’t necessarily mean that that’s what Halbach did this time. When you consider that, along with the “that’s about it” comment, Avery appeared to be sending the eerie message, “Something different happened this time, but I’m not telling you what it is.”

^bbm - this example from the article sure reminded me of VDK

Avery was asked, “Who do you think did something with her?” Avery responded by launching into aggression behavior—a behavior that deceptive people often exhibit when they feel cornered by the facts of the situation they find themselves in. Typically, they attack the questioner to compel him or her to back off, or a third party to shift the spotlight to someone or something else. In this case, Avery went on the attack against law enforcement.

“I’ve got no idea,” he said. “If the county did something, or whatever, and trying to plant evidence on me or something, I don’t know. I wouldn’t put nothing past the county.”
It’s important to note here that despite his comment, “I’ve got no idea,” Avery in fact failed to deny any specific act of wrongdoing. And apparently as a means of avoiding having to answer any more questions about what happened to Halbach, Avery shifted the spotlight from himself by attacking law enforcement.

^bbm - this example from the article sure reminded me of both JM & VDK (and VDK father & their attorney, too, for that matter.

“They think I’ll stop working on it, and it’ll be forgotten. That’s what they think,” he said... But I want the truth. I want my life. But they keep on taking it.” Then, in what may have been the ultimate statement of “truth in the lie*,” punctuated with an inappropriate chuckle, Avery said, “So I’m going to keep on working, even if it’s wrong.” With that statement, Avery underscored what his behavior suggested throughout the series: that he likely lacked the benefit of having right—and, by extension, the truth—on his side.
“truth in the lie*,” (as explained in an earlier part of the article): ..."sending what we call an unintended message, revealing a significant clue without even realizing it. We think of this phenomenon as “truth in the lie”—a deceptive person will often make a truthful statement that, when analyzed for its literalness, indicates that the person may be perpetuating a lie."

^bbm - this example from the article also reminded me of things VDK & JM have said--not word for word in any of the 3 examples I quoted, but I feel they have a lot of experience with "truth in a lie" statements.

Of course, all jmo. More interesting info at link below:
http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/deception-experts-jury-is-correct-steve-avery-is-guilty/

Searc

​

 

[neesaki]

Question. Should the family (at this point) sue Klein if they are truly innocent?

And if they don't sue; Does this means that they are guilty and keeping hush?

But how can they sue Klein, when he's done little more than reiterate, and expound to a very small degree, on what LE has stated.

 

[1&2&3]

We don't know the capacity of IR's thinking, recall, if he can determine the difference between an actual occurrence or people telling him what he saw. How he separates these are a major concern in what took place at the campground.

Do you remember the TV news reporter knocking on IR's door to interview him? He looked like he had been awakened and was a bit disheveled. At this time, IR said, they told me to say I saw Deorr.

My thought is how well can IR distinguish what really happened with remembering what he was told to say?

 

[giagreen]

It is so surprising the basic timeline from the very beginning is still so sketchy over 8 months later.

Parents claimed time of arrival to camp after store trip= ~1:00 pm/1:10 pm
Claimed/known times of 911 calls= 2:22 pm/2:26 pm/2:28 pm
The approx time of LE and/or SAR turning up is ~4:00pm but that hasn't been very clearly stated AFAIK?

To add to the confusion there is also the issue of whether TBC was there already when LE/SAR turned up. The claimed time she arrived was 4:48 pm.

I think sar showed up a little later.

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

 

[giagreen]

We don't know the capacity of IR's thinking, recall, if he can determine the difference between an actual occurrence or people telling him what he saw. How he separates these are a major concern in what took place at the campground.

Do you remember the TV news reporter knocking on IR's door to interview him? He looked like he had been awakened and was a bit disheveled. At this time, IR said, they told me to say I saw Deorr.

My thought is how well can IR distinguish what really happened with remembering what he was told to say?

When did he say "they told me to say I saw DeOrr"

Sent from my SM-S920L using Tapatalk

 

[cantkeepquietanymore]

I'm not sure we'll ever know what IR said he saw outside his publicized statements. SB was clear in that IR said he saw DeOrr on Friday. In my opinion that rules out what may or may not have happened Thursday evening. I feel if he told SB that he never saw DeOrr alive, or never DeOrr in a manner that would leave a reasonable person to believe he was alive, this case would have been resolved. We also have no idea what GGP told SB regarding DeOrr and a timeline. Some may feel it's irrelevant what GGP would say, given the relationship.

I know the lack of information makes this case so difficult to grasp and even more difficult to sleuth but I still believe this is a case of him wandering off. I can't explain SB statement calling them suspects. I give very little credit to Klein, just do not believe him. Polygraphs can have aspects that are inconclusive and less than truthful.

I know there are those who strongly disagree with me and that's ok. Lets just keep thing civil and not make it personal.

I understand this belief. It's always in the back of my mind that maybe just maybe, he simply did wander off.
One thing that's always bothered me about this case (and others regarding missing young ones), is the size of the search areas. 2 1/2 miles, 3 miles. It may seem like a lot, but I think it's greatly underestimating the curiosity, energy and perseverance of child. My little guy is 2 1/2 and I have no doubt he could walk that distance if was interested in something. The other day he walked over a mile, with me in tow (my phone app tracks our distance walked), in a park chasing birds, and he wasn't anywhere close to being pooped out.
Some this age have endless amounts of energy.
And there have been cases where these children are found 5 miles or more away.