ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #27

[KatieLiz]

Yes, he did a factory reset on his phone. IDK what he wanted to hide.

Exactly... Either something to do with this case, or he had something incriminating on his phone (separate from this case).

What is his criminal record like? I can't remember... Does he have past drug or sex charges?

 

[carbuff]

Well, he didn't exactly "insert himself" into the case- he was actually hired by the parents. He knows a lot more than we do. I say that knowing the incredible folks here at WS. He personally interviewed all the main players and directed the line of questioning, so that's a layer of knowledge and potential probes we are not privy to, IMHO.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know he was hired. That wasn't my point. My point was he's got no right to go around calling people suspects or POI or anything else. That's LE's job. Besides questionable ethics, I'm concerned that he's jeopardizing a future trial by shooting off his mouth right and left as if he's an LE spokesperson.

 

[KatieLiz]

I know he was hired. That wasn't my point. My point was he's got no right to go around calling people suspects or POI or anything else. That's LE's job. Besides questionable ethics, I'm concerned that he's jeopardizing a future trial by shooting off his mouth right and left as if he's an LE spokesperson.

I was worried about that for quite a while too... But at this point I think LE would have shut him up by now. They wouldn't risk him jeopardizing their case (I wouldn't think).

 

[carbuff]

I was worried about that for quite a while too... But at this point I think LE would have shut him up by now. They wouldn't risk him jeopardizing their case (I wouldn't think).

I don't think there's anything they can do. Free speech and all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[boston5]

I know he was hired. That wasn't my point. My point was he's got no right to go around calling people suspects or POI or anything else. That's LE's job. Besides questionable ethics, I'm concerned that he's jeopardizing a future trial by shooting off his mouth right and left as if he's an LE spokesperson.

My take on this is the guy had been in business for 20+ years. He knows how this works, and he has a profitable business for a reason. Right? Just my opinion.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Eloise]

LE haven't really distanced themselves from Klein. In a way I wonder if they're quite happy for him to be doing the talking.

 

[observation]

I know he was hired. That wasn't my point. My point was he's got no right to go around calling people suspects or POI or anything else. That's LE's job. Besides questionable ethics, I'm concerned that he's jeopardizing a future trial by shooting off his mouth right and left as if he's an LE spokesperson.

I'm doubtful that LE or Klein would allow that to happen. Klein has liberties to share where LE can't. We get a lot of useful information from Klein and DeOrr stays in the news with lots of people invested in justice for him. The people I'm angry with are the parents- speak up and be honest with yourselves, people!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ReadySet]

VDK probably hit him to hard.

So, I have also been confused about the "intentional homicide" statement. I thought that meant that the parents must have premeditated and wanted to kill him. But doing some research, I find that intentional homicide means the same as murder. And:
Idaho Code stipulates that any murder that occurs during the commission of an aggravated battery on a child younger than 12 is classified as first-degree murder.

So: I understand that to mean that even if there was no intent to cause his death, if there was physical abuse that caused his death--it was murder. Or "intentional homicide."

 

[ReadySet]

Here's a link:

ICJI 701 MURDER DEFINEDINSTRUCTION NO. Murder is the killing of a human being [without legaljustification or excuse and] [with malice aforethought][or][by the intentional application of torture][or][in the perpetration of, or attempt to perpetrate, [anaggravated battery on a child under twelve (12) years ofage] [arson] [rape] [robbery] [burglary] [kidnapping][mayhem] [an act of terrorism] [use of a [weapon of massdestruction] [or] [biological weapon] [or] [chemicalweapon]]] .

https://www.isc.idaho.gov/jury/criminal/700/700Homicide-All.pdf

 

[KatieLiz]

I don't think there's anything they can do. Free speech and all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, they could serve him with a cease and desist or charge him with obstruction of justice. That's why, clearly, the investigators are fine with what Klein is releasing. Or else he wouldn't be allowed to open his mouth.

 

[desert-blue]

So, I have also been confused about the "intentional homicide" statement. I thought that meant that the parents must have premeditated and wanted to kill him. But doing some research, I find that intentional homicide means the same as murder. And:
Idaho Code stipulates that any murder that occurs during the commission of an aggravated battery on a child younger than 12 is classified as first-degree murder.

So: I understand that to mean that even if there was no intent to cause his death, if there was physical abuse that caused his death--it was murder. Or "intentional homicide."

I agree that battery leading to death would be intentional homicide. Where I'm stuck is on the backing over him with the truck - I don't see how that could be intentional homicide? Even if they were drunk or whatever - wouldn't it be manslaughter not murder?

 

[ReadySet]

I agree that battery leading to death would be intentional homicide. Where I'm stuck is on the backing over him with the truck - I don't see how that could be intentional homicide? Even if they were drunk or whatever - wouldn't it be manslaughter not murder?

I think it could be vehicular homicide (murder). Here's a case out of Alabama where a woman was charged with vehicular homicide. I assume she didn't intend to hit or kill the child

HUNTSVILLE, Ala. (WHNT) -- Police have arrested a woman following a deadly hit and run late Sunday night on Highway 72, just east of Memorial Parkway. One child was killed and his two sisters were critically hurt.
Latonya Denise Haley, 31, is in custody. She is charged with vehicular homicide, felony leaving the scene of an accident and two counts of second-degree assault. She has several past arrests.
Emergency crews were called to the crash site, Highway 72 East and North Park Drive, just after 11:00 p.m. Sunday. The children were walking along the side of Highway 72 with an adult when a dark-colored SUV veered off the road and hit the children. The driver left the scene.

http://whnt.com/2014/09/15/one-child-dead-two-others-critical-after-hit-and-run-involving-suv/

 

[FlyLadyFan]

No, they could serve him with a cease and desist or charge him with obstruction of justice. That's why, clearly, the investigators are fine with what Klein is releasing. Or else he wouldn't be allowed to open his mouth.

I agree, and Klein blabbing serves the purpose of keeping VD and JM always anxious about evidence turning up. Keep them off balance and under pressure for as long as possible.

 

[MsMarple]

During SB's interview with Tricia a couple of weeks back he made it clear that his office doesn't work for Klein nor does it work with him. He went on to say that it's been interesting following Klein's investigation and especially interesting that he came to the same conclusions as Klein.

I'd say that SB is monitoring Klein and so far hasn't found that he is obstructing the case. I also think that any evidence Klein uncovers would not be admissible in court. What's not clear (to me) is how much SB communicates with Klein.

 

[ReadySet]

So: "Homicide" is an umbrella term, that includes both murder and manslaughter. Therefore, if I"m interpreting correctly, when "homicide" is referenced, it could mean either "murder" OR "manslaughter." Saying "intentional" may mean murder though, instead of manslaughter. Or "intentional " could mean "voluntary manslaughter."

From an Idaho attorney website:


Homicide Charges Defined

• HOMICIDE is the killing of one human being by another, either lawfully or unlawfully. Homicide includes both Murder and Manslaughter.
• MURDER is generally defined as the unlawful and unjustified killing of another human being with malice aforethought.
• MANSLAUGHTER is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought. Essentially, the difference between manslaughter and murder is that manslaughter was the result of an accident.
• VEHICULAR MANSLAUGHTER generally occurs when a person drives a vehicle and unintentionally but unlawfully kills another human being.
• VOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER generally occurs when a person kills another in the heat of passion, without planning beforehand.
• INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER generally occurs when a death is an indirect result of recklessness or negligence.

http://www.idaholawyerfouser.com/Murder.aspx

Here again, Homicide includes "manslaughter." So even if it's "without malice," it can be "voluntary." From Idaho statutes:

[FONT=&quot]CHAPTER 40[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]HOMICIDE[/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot]18-4006. MANSLAUGHTER DEFINED. Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being including, but not limited to,[FONT=&quot]a [/FONT][FONT=&quot]human [/FONT][FONT=&quot] a human embryo or fetus, without malice. It is of three (3) kinds:[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) Voluntary -- upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2) Involuntary -- in the perpetration of or attempt to perpetrate any unlawful act, other than those acts specified in section 18-4003(d), Idaho Code; or in the commission of a lawful act which might produce death, in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection; or in the operation of any firearm or deadly weapon in a reckless, careless or negligent manner which produces death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](3) Vehicular -- in which the operation of a motor vehicle is a significant cause contributing to the death because of:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](a) The commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to a felony, with gross negligence; or[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](b) The commission of a violation of section 18-8004 or 18-8006, Idaho Code; or[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](c) The commission of an unlawful act, not amounting to a felony,

https://legislature.idaho.gov/idstat/Title18/T18CH40SECT18-4006.htm

Therefore, "Intentional Homicide" COULD equal "Involuntary Manslaughter."

JMO

[/FONT]

 

[ReadySet]

I meant to say, "Intentional Homicide" COULD mean "Voluntary Manslaughter."

Also, remember that it's not just Klein who said "homicide." SB said it first.

"We've given them too many opportunities to tell us what happened, if it was an accident, and there's been no interest in going that direction. So that tells me there's only one other possibility, it has to be a homicide," Sheriff Bowerman said.

Philip Klein, CEO and lead investigator of KIC Texas, issued a news release responding to the sheriff's statements Thursday evening.
"We want to publicly say that we support his statements ... we believe this case to be an intentional homicide with the suspects being Vernal Deorr Kunz and Jessica Mitchell," Klein says in the release.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/idah...f-deorrs-death-has-to-be-a-homicide/266689540

 

[soolaimon345]

OK, I'm going to do a quick poll like on Missy's thread - just interested to see where we're all at after all the recent news and interviews. I'd love to be able to just ask outright whodunnit but I think that could get messy and violate TOS! So... cast your votes (and feel free to choose more than one!):

I don't believe the parents would cover for each other all this time without cracking, I feel maybe GGP was asked to watch baby D and something untoward happened resulting in panic and disposing of body to protect GGP, hence IR not speaking out as he is a friend.....perhaps

 

[ZooSleuth]

I meant to say, "Intentional Homicide" COULD mean "Voluntary Manslaughter."

Also, remember that it's not just Klein who said "homicide." SB said it first.

"We've given them too many opportunities to tell us what happened, if it was an accident, and there's been no interest in going that direction. So that tells me there's only one other possibility, it has to be a homicide," Sheriff Bowerman said.

Philip Klein, CEO and lead investigator of KIC Texas, issued a news release responding to the sheriff's statements Thursday evening.
"We want to publicly say that we support his statements ... we believe this case to be an intentional homicide with the suspects being Vernal Deorr Kunz and Jessica Mitchell," Klein says in the release.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/local/idah...f-deorrs-death-has-to-be-a-homicide/266689540

BBM. I have a different interpretation. I think if any homicide is intentional, that means it was done with malice aforethought which makes it a murder and can't be a manslaughter. I take voluntary manslaughter to mean that a person did something that caused a death, but the intention was not to kill that person.

The definition of malice aforethought is: the intention to kill or harm, which is held to distinguish unlawful killing from murder.

 

[byo]

I found this question/ answer to be interesting.

Q. Did GGP's suburban overheat on the way up to the campsite forcing VDK to pull/tow it?
Klein: There was a trailer situation - depending on whose story you listen to.

A "trailer situation" gives us another stopping point on the way to the campground.
And IMO, in a trailer situation/ car over-heating, pulling off the road and accessing the problem could be where little DeOrr was injured.
Lots of commotion, and no one watching little DeOrr.

Also, how strange is it to buy 3 phone chargers between Idaho Falls and Leadore?

 

[desert-blue]

I found this question/ answer to be interesting.

Q. Did GGP's suburban overheat on the way up to the campsite forcing VDK to pull/tow it?
Klein: There was a trailer situation - depending on whose story you listen to.

A "trailer situation" gives us another stopping point on the way to the campground.
And IMO, in a trailer situation/ car over-heating, pulling off the road and accessing the problem could be where little DeOrr was injured.
Lots of commotion, and no one watching little DeOrr.

Also, how strange is it to buy 3 phone chargers between Idaho Falls and Leadore?

Interesting thought - if he was killed somewhere between Leadore and the campground that would explain why his scent wasn't found at the campground. Perhaps there was a heated argument between Bob, Vernal, and Jessica, tempers flared, and one of them hit DeOrr (maybe he was crying or getting in the way or something). Alternatively, it could be that the truck backed over him during the switching of the trailer or something (it would have been getting dark and they may have been drinking?).... I don't see how Isaac could not be a witness to all this though (unless maybe he stayed behind at the Silver Dollar or something but then I don't know how he would have gotten back up to the campground).

Maybe that's why some of them didn't mention it - thinking it was best just to leave that part out all together to be safe...

Pure speculation and it still doesn't explain the three car chargers, though, which I think is pretty strange...