ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #29

[SubtleGrace]

Here's what Trina said:


06:16
... whether anyone wants to believe it, you know, she wanted to talk to her mommy and hopefully, mommy would have that solution…and…you know, when mom couldn’t have that solution is when I said, you…you need to pick up… you’ve got to call 911. Have you called them? And that was her next phone call was to 911.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/exte...dma-of-missing-toddler-deorr-kunz-jr/39482978

If this were true, and Trina spoke with Jessica right before she called 911, why then did Jess text her mother at 2:26pm "911" and Trina texted back "Pick up" at 2:28, but Jess couldn't because she was already on the phone with 911, and if you listen to the 911 call closely you can hear a few seconds of silence, that was probably Trina beeping in. Trina sent me a copy of these texts messages herself.

And as another poster pointed out earlier, why would Jess even bother to call her mother repeatedly yet not leave a message if a) Trina's phone was always on silent when she worked and b) she was texting her earlier in the day, so obviously cell phone coverage at the campsite and in Leadore isn't as bad as they made it out to be.

 

[SubtleGrace]

Here's a small area about 35metres x 35 metres of woods very close to the campground. Basicaly the bits of ground that are visible to you in this image are the bits of ground visible from a helicopter.

Therefore in the wooded areas most of the ground is invisible to a helicopter. The addition of IR technology doesn't help much in the woods because while it will see a child concealed in long grass or in a small bush, it won't see a child under tree cover MOO. My qualification is watching police chase programmes on TV, where the IR equipment can see a criminal hiding in long grass, in a shed, or in a small bush, but the criminal becomes invisible if he enters a wood.

They weren't using their sight, they were using this technology: http://www.flir.com/home/

http://mashable.com/2015/06/25/flir-one-second-generation-review/#up5e.QVuGkqq

Even Vernal was impressed.

 

[KatieLiz]

If this were true, and Trina spoke with Jessica right before she called 911, why then did Jess text her mother at 2:26pm "911" and Trina texted back "Pick up" at 2:28, but Jess couldn't because she was already on the phone with 911, and if you listen to the 911 call closely you can hear a few seconds of silence, that was probably Trina beeping in. Trina sent me a copy of these texts messages herself.

And as another poster pointed out earlier, why would Jess even bother to call her mother repeatedly yet not leave a message if a) Trina's phone was always on silent when she worked and b) she was texting her earlier in the day, so obviously cell phone coverage at the campsite and in Leadore isn't as bad as they made it out to be.

This is Trina's version of events straight from her mouth. It would have been easily verified or discredited by LE with a quick run of the phone records. From Trina's story she spoke with Jessica directly, not just through text, BEFORE Jessica called 911.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

They weren't using their sight, they were using this technology: http://www.flir.com/home/

http://mashable.com/2015/06/25/flir-one-second-generation-review/#up5e.QVuGkqq

Even Vernal was impressed.

http://www.post-gazette.com/local/w...eld-in-Ohio-pennsylvania/stories/201510050127

2-year-old girl from Ohio found alive following two-day search

NORTH BLOOMFIELD, Ohio — For two days, a virtual army of rescuers searched for 2-year-old Rainn Peterson on foot, on ATV, on horseback and by air.

The little girl, according to her family, wandered out of her great-grandparents’ home Friday night and into the dark in this rural area of northeast Ohio — a long stretch of soybean and corn farms that gives way to rolling green hills in the distance.

And the rescuers, competing against time and with fading hope, had to scour every last crevice and creek for the small child.
-.-.-.-

This little girl wasn't found by air search but later on by a neighbour on his ATV. That doesn't mean that the air search crew failed to track down little Deorr. Maybe he never was there or maybe he was never there alive. Would thermo cameras be able to find a cold dead body?

 

[desert-blue]

This is Trina's version of events straight from her mouth. It would have been easily verified or discredited by LE with a quick run of the phone records. From Trina's story she spoke with Jessica directly, not just through text, BEFORE Jessica called 911.

I just wonder how much time elapsed before Jessica actually called 911 - that bit of information is left out. Trina just says that Jessica's next call was to 911 but Jessica's next call could have been a half hour or whole hour later for all we know. That would help explain how Trina arrived at the campsite at 4:48.

 

[haven71]

Here's what Trina said:

TBC: Well, um, I was at work that afternoon and um, my phone is always on Silent, and I had taken a break and had noticed that her phone had called me several times, so I tried to call her, and call, and I couldn’t get through, and um …

<snip>
...and when I realized that the calls were so&#8230; (pause) there was so many of &#8216;em, I really was worried about my father.

<snip>

05:43
CB: Just to clarify though, so she called you and then she called 911, is that true?

TBC: That is true!


CB: And&#8230;um&#8230;why do you think she did that?

TBC: Because I don&#8217;t think that Jessica for a moment ever thought that we&#8217;d be where we are right now. I&#8230;I truly believe that, you know, she just needed&#8230; Mom, you know, Help me! What do I do here? Um&#8230; I&#8230;I think she was a 25-year-old young lady that&#8230;was scared, and was hoping that&#8230;just the calm&#8230;the, you know, the &#8230; talkin&#8217; to her mommy

06:16
... whether anyone wants to believe it, you know, she wanted to talk to her mommy and hopefully, mommy would have that solution&#8230;and&#8230;you know, when mom couldn&#8217;t have that solution is when I said, you&#8230;you need to pick up&#8230; you&#8217;ve got to call 911. Have you called them? And that was her next phone call was to 911.

http://www.localnews8.com/news/exte...dma-of-missing-toddler-deorr-kunz-jr/39482978

Thank you, TxJan1971! That was very helpful (although as Neesaki states well, who knows what truth if any lies within that account).

Was in on Klein's FB that Trina said that Jessica was basically incoherent? I swear I remember an interview section where TBC said something to that effect. I will go and look.

If it is true that Jessica was so shaken up, I have a hard time believing "Mommy" was able to calm her down. If TBC's main concern was trying to calm her down, that's a problem IMO. I know if I called my own Mom under the circumstances, she would probably freak me out more. She'd be asking for every detail, telling me the dangers of the creek, where to look, maybe he's under there, maybe he fell in, maybe you should check the....etc. Yes, she would need Jessica lucid enough to understand what was being said, and perhaps after she calmed her down she started to really "assist" and give Jessica a reality check ("get it together and find your son!!!!").

If she really was hysterical, then perhaps the death/disappearance really did occur around that time, or she found out something around that time regarding Deorr's whereabouts and conditions (if she hadn't done him in herself already). Something traumatic would have had to occur for her to be freaking out so much, unless it was all an act. I certainly don't put it past her at all. But seeing her in other videos talking...she seems so passive, and apathetic. Seems like she is the cold and calculated type to me. Vernal is the one I could see totally losing his mind, he's comes off so angry and aggressive.

Say, do we know when/if Vernal called HIS relatives???

 

[TxJan1971]

Thank you, TxJan1971! That was very helpful (although as Neesaki states well, who knows what truth if any lies within that account).

Was in on Klein's FB that Trina said that Jessica was basically incoherent? I swear I remember an interview section where TBC said something to that effect. I will go and look.

No, it was not on Klein's FB (unless I missed an "additional" statement from TBC there). It was from the same link in my previous post.

If it is true that Jessica was so shaken up, I have a hard time believing "Mommy" was able to calm her down. If TBC's main concern was trying to calm her down, that's a problem IMO. I know if I called my own Mom under the circumstances, she would probably freak me out more. She'd be asking for every detail, telling me the dangers of the creek, where to look, maybe he's under there, maybe he fell in, maybe you should check the....etc. Yes, she would need Jessica lucid enough to understand what was being said, and perhaps after she calmed her down she started to really "assist" and give Jessica a reality check ("get it together and find your son!!!!").

Here is TBC's statement:

Trina to Chelsea:
Um&#8230;so when I finally did get a hold of Jess and she was in complete panic. Um, I couldn&#8217;t understand what she was saying to me. Um, I couldn&#8217;t&#8230;There was nothing I could understand. Um&#8230;and I immediately&#8230;I was mad. Um, I started screaming at her &#8211; told her that she needed to calm down. I couldn&#8217;t understand anything that she was saying to me and told her to take a deep breath and, you know, I&#8230;I just&#8230;I thought for sure she was going to tell me it was my dad and&#8230;

If she really was hysterical, then perhaps the death/disappearance really did occur around that time, or she found out something around that time regarding Deorr's whereabouts and conditions (if she hadn't done him in herself already). Something traumatic would have had to occur for her to be freaking out so much, unless it was all an act. I certainly don't put it past her at all. But seeing her in other videos talking...she seems so passive, and apathetic. Seems like she is the cold and calculated type to me. Vernal is the one I could see totally losing his mind, he's comes off so angry and aggressive.

Say, do we know when/if Vernal called HIS relatives???
To my knowledge, this has never been reported in MSM. It has been reported by Klein that he made phone calls. The specifics were not released.

Q: Did Vernal make any phone calls besides 911 while at the campground?

A: Klein Investigations and Consulting Yes.

See my responses under yours.

 

[KatieLiz]

I just wonder how much time elapsed before Jessica actually called 911 - that bit of information is left out. Trina just says that Jessica's next call was to 911 but Jessica's next call could have been a half hour or whole hour later for all we know. That would help explain how Trina arrived at the campsite at 4:48.

I have seen the times somewhere (don't have time to look now)- either from Trina or Klein. But Trina told LE the times-- again, this would be proven or disproven immediately with a brief check of the phone records. I've never seen Klein dispute it.... and if it weren't tru I would expect to see Klein ripping holes through that story.

About the only thing I do believe in this story is that Jessica waited to speak to Trina before calling 911.... now the question is WHY.

 

[KatieLiz]

If she really was hysterical, then perhaps the death/disappearance really did occur around that time, or she found out something around that time regarding Deorr's whereabouts and conditions (if she hadn't done him in herself already). Something traumatic would have had to occur for her to be freaking out so much, unless it was all an act. I certainly don't put it past her at all. But seeing her in other videos talking...she seems so passive, and apathetic. Seems like she is the cold and calculated type to me. Vernal is the one I could see totally losing his mind, he's comes off so angry and aggressive.

RSBM

IMO her being hysterical was either a)part of the act to convince TBC... or b) part of the storyline, and the calls the Trina were part of it all too. Providing an alibi and someone to.corroborate your story.

How are you hysterical with mom with fine with 911 minutes later?

 

[desert-blue]

I have seen the times somewhere (don't have time to look now)- either from Trina or Klein. But Trina told LE the times-- again, this would be proven or disproven immediately with a brief check of the phone records. I've never seen Klein dispute it.... and if it weren't tru I would expect to see Klein ripping holes through that story.

About the only thing I do believe in this story is that Jessica waited to speak to Trina before calling 911.... now the question is WHY.

Yes, they certainly have phone records so I think it's a fact that Jessica called Trina before 911. Klein is very careful not to discuss anything to do with the time line, though. My only point is that we do not know the amount of time between Jessica's last conversation with her mom and the time Jessica dialed 911. Klein won't share that information. I think Trina is careful about what she says so that it's true (particularly when it's something that LE can easily verify) but leaves out details that might make Jessica look suspicious. She's crafty. MOO.

ETA: I don't recall seeing exact times of the calls, but I will look... if those times have been released, then this post can be disregarded or deleted....

 

[TxJan1971]

Klein confirmed JMA called TBC before she called 911. He doesn't state what time this occurred, but he does state that there is, once again, "confusion."

Q: What time did Jessica start calling Trina after Deorr went missing?

A: Klein Investigations and Consulting Timeline information - we are withholding. She (Jessica) did call Trina before she called 911. Her time to her mother of the missing, her time to the 911 dispatchers, and her time to us all differ. Thus confusion.

 

[desert-blue]

Klein confirmed JMA called TBC before she called 911. He doesn't state what time this occurred, but he does state that there is, once again, "confusion."

Q: What time did Jessica start calling Trina after Deorr went missing?

A: Klein Investigations and Consulting Timeline information - we are withholding. She (Jessica) did call Trina before she called 911. Her time to her mother of the missing, her time to the 911 dispatchers, and her time to us all differ. Thus confusion.

Also, on May 11th, Klein made the following post to his KIC page:

Public Statement : "Our team has reviewed Trina Clegg's interview this past evening with News 8 in ID Falls regarding the DeOrr Kunz, Jr. case. Since the interview we have received a large amount of emails and messages regarding her statement and inconsistencies in previous statements and comments. We are aware of these issues. We thank the public. At this time our team has no comment."

I've looked and cannot find where the exact times of their phone calls have been released.... I'm not sure it's been confirmed...

 

[TxJan1971]

Also, on May 11th, Klein made the following post to his KIC page:

Public Statement : "Our team has reviewed Trina Clegg's interview this past evening with News 8 in ID Falls regarding the DeOrr Kunz, Jr. case. Since the interview we have received a large amount of emails and messages regarding her statement and inconsistencies in previous statements and comments. We are aware of these issues. We thank the public. At this time our team has no comment."

I've looked and cannot find where the exact times of their phone calls have been released.... I'm not sure it's been confirmed...

BBM
I'm pretty confident specific times have not yet been released in MSM.

 

[haven71]

RSBM

IMO her being hysterical was either a)part of the act to convince TBC... or b) part of the storyline, and the calls the Trina were part of it all too. Providing an alibi and someone to.corroborate your story.

How are you hysterical with mom with fine with 911 minutes later?

KatieLiz, that is partly what I'm saying. It could have been an act (God knows what Jessica's capable of), and it could've been to corroborate the story as well. I think this is the most likely scenario.

But, I'm also trying to throw something out there that I haven't seen mentioned. IMO I think it's very possible that something happened regarding Deorr and Jessica "lost her mind" and that it wasn't an act at that point in time. Also, it's a little fishy to me that she would behave that way to her mom (if it's even true) to emphasize her panic and believability, but not use that "drama" when she called 911. Am I making sense here?

 

[KatieLiz]

Yes, they certainly have phone records so I think it's a fact that Jessica called Trina before 911. Klein is very careful not to discuss anything to do with the time line, though. My only point is that we do not know the amount of time between Jessica's last conversation with her mom and the time Jessica dialed 911. Klein won't share that information. I think Trina is careful about what she says so that it's true (particularly when it's something that LE can easily verify) but leaves out details that might make Jessica look suspicious. She's crafty. MOO.

ETA: I don't recall seeing exact times of the calls, but I will look... if those times have been released, then this post can be disregarded or deleted....

I agree with you. I fully believe jessica called Trina several times, and then when they finally spoke she called 911. BUT I don't fully believe the details of J's conversation with TBC. I have a sneaking suspicion this was all part of the plan-- either making contact with TBC when it was time to finalize and follow through with the plan (if TBC is "in the know") OR the calls to TBC were part of V and J's plan in order to back up their story (if Trina isn't in on it).

I would love to know the time of each attempt J made to call. Did the calls start before J says Deorr vanished? Were they very frequent and close together? That would mean she had good reception and couldn't have been searching for Deorr deep in the bush.

So many questions.

I want a trial for many reasons, but a big reason is so that we can see their phone records. I've said since day 1 those will be what made their stories fall apart. If only we knew what LE knows.

 

[KatieLiz]

Klein confirmed JMA called TBC before she called 911. He doesn't state what time this occurred, but he does state that there is, once again, "confusion."

Q: What time did Jessica start calling Trina after Deorr went missing?

A: Klein Investigations and Consulting Timeline information - we are withholding. She (Jessica) did call Trina before she called 911. Her time to her mother of the missing, her time to the 911 dispatchers, and her time to us all differ. Thus confusion.

BBM

Does this mean that the length of time she said Deorr had been missing was a different length of time to each Trina, 911, and investigators later on? The way I read that was that she has changed her story on WHEN Deorr vanished too? Just clarifying in case I misunderstood?

 

[KatieLiz]

BBM
I'm pretty confident specific times have not yet been released in MSM.

Why does 2:26 pm stick out in my mind? I would swear I've read that as the time of the 911 call. And LE arrived around 4:00 I thought? Hmm.. I can't remember where that came from but those two times are definitly sticking out to me. I haven't seen times for calls to Trina though. Presumably before 2:26...

 

[KatieLiz]

KatieLiz, that is partly what I'm saying. It could have been an act (God knows what Jessica's capable of), and it could've been to corroborate the story as well. I think this is the most likely scenario.

But, I'm also trying to throw something out there that I haven't seen mentioned. IMO I think it's very possible that something happened regarding Deorr and Jessica "lost her mind" and that it wasn't an act at that point in time. Also, it's a little fishy to me that she would behave that way to her mom (if it's even true) to emphasize her panic and believability, but not use that "drama" when she called 911. Am I making sense here?

Yep you're totally making sense.

But the only scenario I can envision to make what you suggest possible would be if Deorr genuinely vanished and the 4 adults are genuinely innocent. Do you see another scenario that something could've "just" happened to Deorr right before the 911 call? Because if he had "just" died then and they were freaking out trying to cover it I don't see them having enough time if they called 911 right taster Trina. He hasn't been found for 15 months. If they did this to him they needed a lot longer than an hour to clean it up and hide him well. That's why I can't see that scenario being plausible unless he really did vanish into thin air.

If you have another scenario in mind please let me know so I can jump on board

 

[charminglane]

How about this:
Doerr is in critical condition at home from being abused by his mother. Trina goes to work, and Jessica goes on the camping trip. Baby is alone for a few hours till Grandma comes home. When Trina gets home, Doerr is alone and dead.
Jessica doesn't realize the seriousness of the situation till she calls her mom and finds out Doerr is dead. Hence, the "Mommy knows best" call. Calming her down. Since she is responsible.
Trina gets rid of the body on the way to the campgrounds.
EVERYONE is protecting Jessica.

 

[desert-blue]

BBM

Does this mean that the length of time she said Deorr had been missing was a different length of time to each Trina, 911, and investigators later on? The way I read that was that she has changed her story on WHEN Deorr vanished too? Just clarifying in case I misunderstood?

I think it means she offered three different times as to how long (i.e. when) DeOrr had been missing.... however, it is confusing because the actual time he "disappeared" would differ from the time it was noticed that he wasn't there. The former would be an estimate because no one could know the exact time he went missing, but the latter should be a bit more concrete. I think the real problem is that the whole scenario is make-believe, so when you press them for details, things become inconsistent because they are not based on fact. For example, who put DeOrr in his car seat at the store, who gave him his donuts and jo-jos, was the camper trailer hooked or unhooked from the hitch, who cooked breakfast.... questions like these are tricky for the suspects because they didn't rehearse every single detail. They're forced to guess and as chance would have it, their stories often don't match. In addition, it seems like they tweak little details to try to make themselves look "better" or less suspicious. MOO.