Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom, arrested* #20

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  • #381
One of the larger questions that's been running throughout this thread are whether Chad/Lori/AVOW/etc. are sincere in their beliefs or have been wholly motivated by sex/money. I have no way to judge this in this particular case, but I generally try to assume people claiming religious faith are sincere until proven otherwise.

If we run with the sincerity assumption for the time being, the question immediately arises as to how Chad and Lori and like-minded others have been able to reconcile their non-orthodox beliefs (speaking in an LDS context) with the more mainstream LDS community in which much of their lives are spent, a community that emphasizes following clearly identified and authorized leaders?

The point I want to emphasize here has already been made and discussed, and it's not different from those motivating other types of "cultish" actions elsewhere, but I want to emphasize why LDS members may be particularly susceptible to it. This is the idea of "chosenness."

In a sense, elements of chosenness run throughout all of Christianity, but from my perspective the sense of chosenness is heightened within Mormonism. Very early on in Mormonism, a sense of literal belonging to Israelite tribes developed, supported by narratives such as the idea that only those who had "believing blood" would accept the LDS gospel. Later a sense of "adoption" into one of the twelve tribes replaced the strong belief in literal blood lineage. But the idea of many early Mormons, and one that still exists to some degree within mainstream Mormonism, is that God has put you here in your particular time/place context (particularly as a believer in the church) for a reason.

Early on, this sense of chosenness (and the possible conceit that comes through belief that one's own fate is more important to God than any other random human being) was easy to maintain, with relatively few members of the church and a second coming of Jesus expected within one's lifetime. But nearly 200 years (after the beginning of the church) and 16+ million members later, with no Second Coming having occurred, this sense of chosenness becomes harder to sustain. So, in my opinion, I think some church members seek other outlets to maintain a sense of chosenness. Thus we see, as the EIN video portrayed, it's some of the members who are "most Mormon" who are most susceptible to the idea that there might be additional knowledge out there available only to a relatively select few, or who can imagine themselves as participating in the vanguard of something new, big, and important.

(MOO) ... to be continued ...
I agree with you. I also think often that people are inclined to be interested in the “deeper doctrines” as well and aren’t satisfied with the basics of the faith. They want to believe in something bigger and grander. Plus maybe want to be bigger and grander themselves. This is a big preface of MOO but I think often in the church the leaders/prophets, etc are seen as “celebrities” for lack of a better word along with their families or those associated with them. I think this even happens on a more local level that in some wards or stakes that there are certain people or families that seem to be more “chosen” than others based on callings. A little hard to explain but I wonder if Chad was taking things into his own hands to “elevate” his standing since he may have been aspiring to something greater than where his standing/calling currently was in the church. All this MOO of course.
 
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  • #382
The thing that we as outsiders don't know are how many members of this group are there if any beyond the known ones. That would help neighbors and community members know where to watch for sightings Tylee or JJ. They could review their Ring cameras and so on to see if they were moved in the night or even playing outside where someone would not notice. A typical 17 year old social girl is not usually the easiest person to keep away from friends and a young child with autism (and a dog) needs lots of attention. Who would be qualified to care for him in there network if there is one? Sadly, in reality, it really doesn't benefit Lori Vallow to hide them unless she is holding them for ransom from the grandparents who have the life insurance money. Given the press attention and legal boundaries that have been crossed, a money/kid swap is not going to happen. If it is just now just spiteful face-off, she is losing...she is in an orange jump suit in jail with no one. Most likely, that was never the real goal of hiding them. Keeping the birth certificates with her may have been to keep them from the grandparents, take loans out for "college" for Tylee or pretend to enroll JJ in a local school or other social services.
 
  • #383
Hi, a newbie here.

Have lurked from almost the beginning in this thread. But came for reasons that may be slightly different.

By inclination, I'm not a sleuther. I'll probably never go to any other WS threads. I came here because I noticed there was talk about Chad Daybell.

I perked up my ears on this case because over a decade ago I had just finished writing a series of academic papers on Mormon last days beliefs/speculations/ideas, particularly on how these beliefs might relate to current-day politics and ideas about particular places within the world. I happened to notice that Daybell was apparently just beginning to be involved in this much older genre. One of my most enlightening tasks (and discouraging at the same time, as someone who has never been into this stuff), was to compare LDS novels about the end times to evangelical Christian novels about the same topic (particularly the Left Behind series).

I never ended up reading Daybell, as that particular episode of my academic career ended just before I noticed his involvement in these kinds of things. I had thought that the most significant thing that would emerge from this genre was the election of Chris Stewart as a US congressperson from Utah. Stewart, unlike Daybell, was generally accepted within mainstream Mormonism (he had the imprimatur of Deseret Book, for example) and his series of novels about the last days seems to have been one of the things (in addition to his Air Force career) that put him on the map for election from Utah. Unfortunately, this Daybell case now is a second case where these last-days writings for an LDS audience helped to propel someone to greater fame.

I will stress that I am not an insider in this particular missing-children/etc case. My interest comes from three things:

a) being someone with social science/humanistic training who has long been interested in applying this training to understanding the LDS community

b) being an active LDS member

c) having some proximity to many of the places involved through life experience (Arizona, Utah, Hawaii, Idaho), though nothing that would give me any personal insight into the people involved in this case

I've been impressed by the discussion here on Websleuths, particularly in sorting out some of the distinctive LDS elements that may provide context to the case. I've seen many discussions elsewhere in which people on the differing sides of the LDS/non-LDS divide are unable to productively listen and talk to each other. Thankfully, that hasn't been the case here.

I do occasionally have a slightly different perspective than some of the other LDS commenters here, and so while I don't expect to be a frequent commenter, there are some things that have been floating around the discussion (esp. today) that I'd like to give my perspective on. So if you're not interested in this type of perspective, please just ignore me from now on.
Welcome to WS !!
I look forward to hearing more from you :)
 
  • #384
That was just the most bizarre-a man approaching a husband and telling this husband that he received a revelation that he is supposed to marry husband's wife. Well, if it's a revelation-all righty then. LOL.
That was just the most bizarre-a man approaching a husband and telling this husband that he received a revelation that he is supposed to marry husband's wife. Well, if it's a revelation-all righty then. LOL.
Michael Douglas was not cool with me telling him I had a revelation that I needed to marry Catherine Zeta...
 
  • #385
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Continuing with the theme of why it may be that (at least some of) those self-regard themselves as most strongly Mormon are most susceptible to the kinds of claims Chad and Lori have made:

The LDS church is not unique in the tension between order and personal revelatory guidance, but it may experience this tension particularly strongly.

The LDS church was built on claims of revelation, by Joseph Smith as the founding prophet, and by those who first accepted his claims. The idea was that the heavens had once again opened themselves and that new light and knowledge would be poured out to benefit the world through the LDS gospel. Even today, members are taught that they need to develop a personal assurance of LDS claims through the workings on God's spirit to each person. Latter-day Saints speak of "being receptive to the spirit" as one element of a maturing faith. Mormons expect God to help lead them through important life decisions.

Yet at the same time, the church, again from almost the beginning, realized that a community in which every member had personal access to God's revelation and inspiration could be quite chaotic. It quickly instituted ways (through priesthood offices, in particular), in which there would be order and a sense of authority/hierarchy as to whose revelatory ideas took precedence, and in which situations.

While most LDS members manage to function well within this tension, the promise of a more vibrant revelatory community, with more frequent and profound insight being revealed by God, beckons others. They yearn to return to the type of situation when new revelations were coming to Joseph Smith monthly or weekly, or where revelatory proclamations about the Second Coming and other visions from more ordinary members were taken more seriously.

While the church tries to insist that it still has the same access to God that Joseph Smith did, when the most important recent claims to revelation pertain to things like the age at which missionaries are eligible to be sent and the shortening of the meeting schedule from 3 to 2 hours, not all members are satisfied. Some want to believe that God is willing to tell us more, perhaps much more, if we're just willing to listen. For some of these people, MOO, while they still genuinely respect church leadership and sense of order in most ordinary cases, they are willing to go beyond the official word of the church in their own personal study and understanding. They do not feel that they are going against the church when they write a book about what the spirit has told them about the end of days, or if they join together with other likeminded individuals on the internet to discuss what their visions may mean. Though the institutional church discourages the thought that not all important revelatory truth will come through the leadership hierarchy, there is enough in LDS scriptures/history for some to justify the idea. (to be continued ...)
 
  • #387
Snap! If you have FB the high school (Rialto) Lori went to has a public group and you can see they've been talking about her and the case and posted pictures, she went by Lora Cox -
Go Rialto!!
 
  • #388
I feel like the Lori's niece is the one who's going to break down eventually and tell what happened to the kids. I feel she's the weakest link in this long crazy chain.
She may in fact be. Doesn't sound like her marriage to IP is too solid at this point. According to the BB court documents, she thinks she is "free" now that Alex is gone, somehow exempt from her conspiracy to kill her husband (which even the court documents state "is simply not the case", which hints a mocking tone - MOO). Her FB posts were clearly those of someone on the edge of a breakdown. I think if the same amount of LE showed up at her door that did the November 27 search in Rexburg (I seem to recall pics of camo clad SWAT) she'll crack. Come on Melani, you can free yourself of this burden. Do the right thing and tell LE everything you know....
 
  • #389
  • #390
So if they found something in Tammy's grave, we will soon know. Being that they disappeared before Tammy passed away, I would want to check graves dug from around the time of JJ's disappearance. If one was disturbed or if one of their group was seen at or near a cemetery. It would not be unusual for an LDS member to visit a cemetery so I think they would feel confident no one would question their presence.
I really can’t see it though as he didn’t have access to those graves on his own like he did when he worked there. He would have had to involved a grave digger at the very least...possibly more people. MOO but there’s very few people out there that would willingly become involved in burying a child/disposing of a body. He doesn’t have the links/connections/businesses that the mafia did to carry that out. I think someone would have come forward and told LE and cut themselves a deal by now. Not saying he didn’t help dispose of them...I don’t know that...I don’t know what happened but i doubt they’re in a graveyard. Now if LE found people high up in the group that did have that kind of access then I suppose it could be a possibility sadly. MOO
 
  • #391
Yes, not everyone wears their wedding dress to be sealed in, however the garments that one wears after being endowed, prior to sealing would prohibit a lot of Lori's clothing standards... no midrift, nothing above the knee, no low cut... no shoulders showing... all of that would be outside the standards of the garment as it's a lot like a t shirt and knee length shorts in covering. Some choose to ignore wearing them and stop doing so if it cramps their style, even if they aren't supposed to.

Apologies if this is an ignorant question, everything I've learned about LDS has come from the great people on this forum, but if you look closely at the weeding photos, it looks like Chad and Lori are wearing their garments. Lori's bottoms appear to be a more modorn cut and are shorter that what is considered tradional just from Googling, but you can clearly see Chad's. Would this have any significance?
 
  • #392
Oh i hope not to get in trouble here...but on SM I landed on a pretty amazing "psychic reading" by a Woman named DS, who apparently has had a number of readings on this case. Has anyone else seen it??? Since we are swirling around lots of different ""belief systems" in these recent threads, I thought it might be ok to mention it. just want to say this was a true true emotional experience... Am i allowed to link it???? Here is one comment that was added by a listener after listening to the youtube reading.... There is a Mercury Drive in Island Park, ID which is next to the Henry’s Fork River. Near dog sled races in Ashton as well.

i bet you are right...Bailey didn't like her either. Wish they could bring Bailey to the jail cell to find out.
No if it hasn’t come from MSM or a verified source then it can’t be discussed here. Sorry MOO
 
  • #393
I didnt know you could tell someone's beliefs by the way they dressed - it would seem to me theres quite a few members of a church who dont follow strict dress code - especially living in a Beach town - where you will see many people going barefoot or in cover ups, or wearing only a bikini, babies running naked at the beach, men shirtless and unshaven- oh the tyranny! Moo
 
  • #394
A few threads ago I mentioned how multi-level marketing schemes and what LE calls "affinity fraud" prospers in Utah and (to a lesser extent) Idaho. That this doesn't seem strange is part of the reason. In fact, it appears that the prepper groups, while not MLMs, are taking advantage of the same kind of tendencies to take advantage of their target audience.

MOO
ab-so-lute-ly.
 
  • #395
A few threads ago I mentioned how multi-level marketing schemes and what LE calls "affinity fraud" prospers in Utah and (to a lesser extent) Idaho. That this doesn't seem strange is part of the reason. In fact, it appears that the prepper groups, while not MLMs, are taking advantage of the same kind of tendencies to take advantage of their target audience.

MOO
ab-so-lute-ly.
No if it hasn’t come from MSM or a verified source then it can’t be discussed here. Sorry MOO
could you help me understand or define what IS MSM. thanks in advance.....
 
  • #396
I'm sure it's around, but, were all of Chad's outlets for book purchases collated into a list? I seem to recall he was dropped from Deseret Book.
 
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Source: Chad Daybell has canceled lease on Princeville condo and expects to move out by 2/28. Source tells me he plans to leave island — unknown when exactly. His wife Lori Vallow’s extradition hearing is set for 3/2. On Friday we confirmed said condo is in escrow
Justin Lum Fox 10 Phoenix
 
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