IDI: Whats your problem?

[BBB167893]

Yes. I think that is why it may be an issue. As in, in a "real-life" kidnapping who would defy a kidnapper's instructions so swiftly and openly, by inviting friends over and calling the cops, with a "real" threat of death hanging over the victim?

Fang, now you're talking my language! What HOTYH neglects is that they had no choice but to call then. Everyone in town knew they were leaving that morning and the pilot was waiting for them. If they no-showed, someone would have come snooping around. My brother and I went over all the scenarios one night.

 

[Tadpole12]

Ok, it's on youtube too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvP-EeuFOMA

It helps to hear it in real time. Begins at 1.47 if you don't want to watch as it contains the crime scene photos as well. When the operator says who took her, it seems to me as if she quickly looks at the end of the note and reads the final line looking for a signature and reads it backwards from the bottom. S.B.T.C. and Victory. Doesn't indicate that she read and digested the whole note before the call. Nor is it evidence that she wrote the RN. Sorry!

Hi MurriFlower.

Thank you for the link.

No need to apologize or be sorry.

My resonse was a 'refresh' of the 911 call, in which PR is able to repeat the closing of the rn, Victory SBTC, when questioned by the 911 dispatcher as to who may have taken JBR.

IDI wise: Her actions indicate that she he had read and comprehended enough of the rn pages as to be able to interpret the acronym as representing the name of a group, and repeat the salutation to 911. It takes a minute to read the rn.

IDI or RDIPRDIJRDIBRDI: One can speculate and make inferences? from the dialogue or create scenarios comparable to stage directions, creating a picture of possible events.




MurriFlower, are you familiar with the enhanced portion of the 911 tape in which a 3rd party voice, possibly, BR is heard.

http://www.crimemagazine.com/solvingjbr-huntq.htm

11). Have you listened to the 911 tape, and if so, what is your conclusion about whether Burke's and John Ramsey's voices are heard on the tape and what do they say? If you believe they are heard on the tape, what conclusions did you draw about what the enhanced version of the tape revealed?

 

[Tadpole12]

con't

TH 1998 interview with PR :

25 TOM HANEY: The morning of the
0589
1 26th, you pick up the phone, call 911. Do you
2 remember, and we talked before, the
3 conversation?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I am sure you must
5 have it on there.
6 TOM HANEY: Absolutely we do. So
7 you know that the telephone calls to the Boulder
8 police department are tape-recorded?
9 PATSY RAMSEY: I would not have.
10 TOM HANEY: I think they are. In
11 fact, they are recorded from the time that
12 connection is made until it's broken and that
13 isn't to say if you stop talking that that's the
14 end of it.
15 PATSY RAMSEY: Okay.
16 TOM HANEY: The morning of the
17 26th, you called the Boulder police department,
18 you talked to a dispatcher.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: I guess if that's
20 where it goes, that's where I called.
21 TOM HANEY: Correct. And when you
22 stopped talking, there was a time that was tape-
23 recorded for a few seconds where there was some
24 additional conversation, conversation at your
25 house?
0590
1 PATSY RAMSEY: By whom?
2 TOM HANEY: That's what I am going
3 to ask you.
4 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean John Ramsey
5 was down on the floor reading the note. I was
6 frantically calling 911. I have to hear it to
7 know what you're talking about.
8 TOM HANEY: Was there any
9 conversation immediately following your last
10 word to the dispatcher?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: I don't remember.
12 I was out of my mind, my child was missing. I
13 was trying to convey that to the person on the
14 other end of the line, okay. I don't remember.
15 If you have it on tape and you would like me to
16 hear it, I will listen to it, see if that jogs
17 my memory.
18 TOM HANEY: It is on tape.
19 PATSY RAMSEY: All right.
20 All right. If you have got the
21 tape we can play it, I will try to help you. I
22 can't remember what's in the (INAUDIBLE

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3744"]Listen To Patsy Ramsey's 911 Call. Hear the Truth. Lin Wood Lied. - Forums For Justice[/ame]

So as PR recounts, she did not have the note in hand:

4 PATSY RAMSEY: I mean John Ramsey
5 was down on the floor reading the note. I was
6 frantically calling 911.

 

[Tadpole12]

Heyya MurriFlower.

Here's a general link to the 911 tape enhancement info, for all it's worth.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/The%20911%20Call

I catagorize a lot of these tidbits into a grey area, ...
kinda, :waitasec: I guess, a 'make of it what you will' catagory.

• Lawrence Schiller Book (1999). A slightly different version of this conversation is reported in a review by the Boston Globe: ``[Boulder Police Detective Melissa] Hickman listened to the tape and wrote down what she heard.

1. " 'Help me, Jesus, help me, Jesus.' That was clearly Patsy's voice. Then, in the distance, there was another voice, which sounded like JonBenet's brother.
2. " 'Please, what do I do?' Burke said.
3. " 'We're not speaking to you,' Hickman heard John Ramsey say.
4. " Patsy screamed again. 'Help me, Jesus, help me, Jesus.'
5. " And then, more clearly, Burke said, 'What did you find?' "

• Steve Thomas Book (2000). The purported Aerospace findings also were leaked by Steve Thomas in his book and another book by Henry Lee (2001): "For a few tantalizing seconds, police heard background sounds that they could not understand. Detectives sent this tape out to the best electronic experts in the region and, still, save for Patsy Ramsey's sobbing and prayers, nothing more could be made out of the background noise. Then the police discovered a new and expert electronics company, Aerospace Corporation in El Segundo, California, that they provided with a copy of the tape. What came back was worth all of this trouble. When these sounds were brought up many times over, police heard Burke and John Ramsey in an exchange. The child said, "Please, what do I do?" To this John Ramsey replied, "We are not speaking to you." Finally, Burke is heard to ask, "What did you find?"
• Steve Thomas Chat Session (2000). The following is an excerpt from a November 14, 2000 chat session with Steve Thomas: crimeADM: "Did you hear the 911 tape personally; and if so, once and for all, was Burke on it?" stevethomas: "I heard the 911 tape. repeatedly, as did the other detectives. the consensus was unanimous, as supported by the enhancement -- there is a 3rd voice on the tape, appears to be Burke (unless there was someone else present who has never been identified...)"

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Fang, now you're talking my language! What HOTYH neglects is that they had no choice but to call then. Everyone in town knew they were leaving that morning and the pilot was waiting for them. If they no-showed, someone would have come snooping around. My brother and I went over all the scenarios one night.

This is ridiculous. Did JR not have the pilots phone number:

"Hello Mr. Pilot, were going to be cancelling our trip today because [insert just about any exuse here]." Does this invite Mr. Pilot over? No.

If JR were following the script of the ransom note, he would lie to his pilot, go to the bank, get money, wait for the call, be seen doing all these things. Meantime this gives him hours of opportunity to get rid of JBR's body and all the physical evidence!

 

[madeleine]

Does anyone here have a copy of the enchanced version.I swear to God I listened to all the versions available online and I couldn't hear anything after Patsy,Patsy,Patsy.

Even if it's true,maybe their lawyers told them to be quiet about it.I think the same happened re the pineapple.I always believed that at least PR knows about JB having pineapple but was advised to say nothing.Maybe the same happened re JB being awake when they arrived home.
Doesn't mean their guilty of hiding something horrible.Maybe it was just the lawyer's strategy.

 

[BBB167893]

This is ridiculous. Did JR not have the pilots phone number:

"Hello Mr. Pilot, were going to be cancelling our trip today because [insert just about any exuse here]." Does this invite Mr. Pilot over? No.

If JR were following the script of the ransom note, he would lie to his pilot, go to the bank, get money, wait for the call, be seen doing all these things. Meantime this gives him hours of opportunity to get rid of JBR's body and all the physical evidence!

HOTYH, my brother and I went over all of these scenarios a long time ago. Allow me:

Scenario 1: they call the pilot and say what you suggest. If JB later ends up dead, the pilot's going to get hinky.

Scenario 2: they call the pilot and say that John will fly them himself. Same result.

Scenario 3: Even if they did manage to snow the pilot, they'd still have to explain it to all of their extended relatives who were waiting for them.

No soap, HOTYH.

 

[BBB167893]

Does anyone here have a copy of the enchanced version.I swear to God I listened to all the versions available online and I couldn't hear anything after Patsy,Patsy,Patsy.

I don't think the enhanced version has ever been released, madeleine.

Even if it's true,maybe their lawyers told them to be quiet about it. I think the same happened re the pineapple. I always believed that at least PR knows about JB having pineapple but was advised to say nothing.Maybe the same happened re JB being awake when they arrived home.
Doesn't mean their guilty of hiding something horrible.Maybe it was just the lawyer's strategy.

Like I said, even if you're innocent, a lawyer will defend you like you're guilty.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

HOTYH, my brother and I went over all of these scenarios a long time ago. Allow me:

Scenario 1: they call the pilot and say what you suggest. If JB later ends up dead, the pilot's going to get hinky.

Scenario 2: they call the pilot and say that John will fly them himself. Same result.

Scenario 3: Even if they did manage to snow the pilot, they'd still have to explain it to all of their extended relatives who were waiting for them.

No soap, HOTYH.

Uh, you're not seeing things clearly. Who is the pilot where anybody cares if he's 'hinky'?
JR could later tell police he didn't call the cops and lied to the pilot for fear of JBR's life.

"If you talk to a stray dog, she dies." Hello, he wasn't supposed to tell anybody anything to keep JBR alive. That gives JR Carte Blanche on who he tells what for hours and hours.

Maybe you'll need more help than just your brother with these scenarios.

 

[BBB167893]

Uh, you're not seeing things clearly.

I'll ignore that.

Who is the pilot where anybody cares if he's 'hinky'? JR could later tell police he didn't call the cops and lied to the pilot for fear of JBR's life.

It wasn't just the pilot. The whole neighborhood knew they were leaving.

"If you talk to a stray dog, she dies." Hello, he wasn't supposed to tell anybody anything to keep JBR alive. That gives JR Carte Blanche on who he tells what for hours and hours.

HOTYH, it wasn't just the pilot. Everyone in the neighborhood knew they were leaving. If one of them had seen him out and about with no visible explanation, they would have wondered why. And under your claim, if the RN was legit, if the "kidnappers" had seen him talking to any one of those people, it was "game over." Worse, as I said, there was the possibility that one of them might have come snooping around and seen something they weren't supposed to and the game would be up. No, as I see it, the only option they had was to call the police and all of their friends over. That way, it gives them a buffer from questioning, it muddies up the forensics and it gives a possible explanation for JB's death: they disobeyed, so JB was killed in retaliation. It serves their victim pose well.

Maybe you'll need more help than just your brother with these scenarios.

These cheap shots are beneath me.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I'll ignore that.



HOTYH, it wasn't just the pilot. Everyone in the neighborhood knew they were leaving. If one of them had seen him out and about with no visible explanation, they would have wondered why. And under your claim, if the RN was legit, if the "kidnappers" had seen him talking to any one of those people, it was "game over." Worse, as I said, there was the possibility that one of them might have come snooping around and seen something they weren't supposed to and the game would be up. No, as I see it, the only option they had was to call the police and all of their friends over. That way, it gives them a buffer from questioning, it muddies up the forensics and it gives a possible explanation for JB's death: they disobeyed, so JB was killed in retaliation. It serves their victim pose well.



These cheap shots are beneath me.

I was just trying to help.

Really, though. JR had Carte Blanche with what he did for hours and hours. Who he told what didn't matter, as it could all be 'written off' in his effort to acquire 118,000, wait for a phone call, and not talk to stray dogs.

The script of the ransom note allowed JR complete latitude in what he would be doing that morning. There is no example that you can provide where JR would incriminate himself with his pilot or his neighbors, so long as he was meeting the ransom note requirements. After the fact, JR doensn't need to worry about the neighbors or pilots, because THEY DONT ARREST PEOPLE. He only needed to worry about LE, and with that ransom note in hand LE wouldn't question him being seen in the neighborhood, near the bank, or wherever HE thought he needed to go.

 

[BBB167893]

I was just trying to help.

Thank you.

Really, though. JR had Carte Blanche with what he did for hours and hours. Who he told what didn't matter, as it could all be 'written off' in his effort to acquire 118,000, wait for a phone call, and not talk to stray dogs
The script of the ransom note allowed JR complete latitude in what he would be doing that morning. There is no example that you can provide where JR would incriminate himself with his pilot or his neighbors, so long as he was meeting the ransom note requirements.

After the fact, JR doesn't need to worry about the neighbors or pilots, because THEY DONT ARREST PEOPLE. He only needed to worry about LE, and with that ransom note in hand LE wouldn't question him being seen in the neighborhood, near the bank, or wherever HE thought he needed to go.

Really? Because if you take the ransom note at face value, the whole point was not to draw undue attention.

But that is not my point. My point is not that he would incriminate himself so much as if one of them came around, they might see something they weren't "supposed" to see.

Moreover, what was he going to do, just LEAVE Patsy and Burke alone in the house while he did all of this? When there's a possibility that the kidnappers might come back? With her near to hysterics (if not IN hysterics)? How is she supposed to look after their son in that condition? What if someone came along? If they're guilty, how does he know she won't give the game away? Even if they're innocent, if someone does come along, how do they know the kidnappers aren't watching the house RIGHT then? Guilty OR innocent, how do they know that person won't call the cops themselves?

Suppose no one calls. Suppose the deal never goes down. What do they do then? They HAVE to call the cops, because if no one shows, then the assumption has to be that they've already had time to make a getaway and the likelihood is that they've already killed her because it would be too much trouble to take her along.

Now, if they're guilty, they still don't have carte blanche as you put it, because it leaves the same big problem they had to begin with: what to do with the body? The same reasons why they couldn't dispose of her (I mean the practical ones, not the emotional ones) in the dead of night are even more pressing during the day. The garage door made a horrendous racket and the car was recognizable. If no one else in the neighborhood was awake when they were, they would have been after that. Say someone notices him leaving without them. That's going to be a big problem. Worse, say someone spots him heading in a direction other than the airport. "Well, where's he going?" And since the cops will have to be called anyway once the deal fails to go down, the cops are going to start asking questions as to whether anyone saw anything suspicious, such as people who don't belong. One of them is going to remember seeing the car and which way it went. Same deal if the cops come and go and never find the body. They may have left the house, but more than likely someone is going to be keeping watch. Suppose one of them saw JR leaving the house. "Where's he going," the cop thinks. It'll be a while before the watch is pulled, and in that time, JB's body isn't getting any FRESHER...

As for other people not arresting him, no, but they could go to the cops. That's my point. Like I said, by calling them over and letting them see how kicked-up everything is, he can control their perceptions (he THINKS). Putting all of your rotten eggs into one basket, as it were.

Like I said, we went through it!

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Thank you.



Really? Because if you take the ransom note at face value, the whole point was not to draw undue attention.

But that is not my point. My point is not that he would incriminate himself so much as if one of them came around, they might see something they weren't "supposed" to see.

Moreover, what was he going to do, just LEAVE Patsy and Burke alone in the house while he did all of this? When there's a possibility that the kidnappers might come back? With her near to hysterics (if not IN hysterics)? How is she supposed to look after their son in that condition? What if someone came along? If they're guilty, how does he know she won't give the game away? Even if they're innocent, if someone does come along, how do they know the kidnappers aren't watching the house RIGHT then? Guilty OR innocent, how do they know that person won't call the cops themselves?

Suppose no one calls. Suppose the deal never goes down. What do they do then? They HAVE to call the cops, because if no one shows, then the assumption has to be that they've already had time to make a getaway and the likelihood is that they've already killed her because it would be too much trouble to take her along.

Now, if they're guilty, they still don't have carte blanche as you put it, because it leaves the same big problem they had to begin with: what to do with the body? The same reasons why they couldn't dispose of her (I mean the practical ones, not the emotional ones) in the dead of night are even more pressing during the day. The garage door made a horrendous racket and the car was recognizable. If no one else in the neighborhood was awake when they were, they would have been after that. Say someone notices him leaving without them. That's going to be a big problem. Worse, say someone spots him heading in a direction other than the airport. "Well, where's he going?" And since the cops will have to be called anyway once the deal fails to go down, the cops are going to start asking questions as to whether anyone saw anything suspicious, such as people who don't belong. One of them is going to remember seeing the car and which way it went. Same deal if the cops come and go and never find the body. They may have left the house, but more than likely someone is going to be keeping watch. Suppose one of them saw JR leaving the house. "Where's he going," the cop thinks. It'll be a while before the watch is pulled, and in that time, JB's body isn't getting any FRESHER...

As for other people not arresting him, no, but they could go to the cops. That's my point. Like I said, by calling them over and letting them see how kicked-up everything is, he can control their perceptions (he THINKS). Putting all of your rotten eggs into one basket, as it were.

Like I said, we went through it!

Honestly what you have here is a mishmash of this and that mindsets. Really it is one and only one mindset that we're discussing: The RDI assertion that they had no choice but to call 911 when they did.

IF JR and PR wrote the note, then they did not have to call 911 when they did. They could've called hours later. Of course eyebrows would be raised because parents are always suspect, but contrary to your argument, there's really nothing they would have to do during that time that would necessarily add to the case against them. Contrarily, there's plenty they could do to subtract from it. They both could've hopped in the car and drove around and around. They could've called the pilot and said they were sick. The pilot does not then come over to their house. They would've had hours and hours to clean the house of evidence.

It doesn't matter what the neighbors thought.

 

[BBB167893]

Honestly what you have here is a mishmash of this and that mindsets.

That's EXACTLY what I think led to this!

Really it is one and only one mindset that we're discussing: The RDI assertion that they had no choice but to call 911 when they did.

And I'm doing my best to illustrate that.

IF JR and PR wrote the note, then they did not have to call 911 when they did. They could've called hours later. Of course eyebrows would be raised because parents are always suspect, but contrary to your argument, there's really nothing they would have to do during that time that would necessarily add to the case against them. Contrarily, there's plenty they could do to subtract from it. They both could've hopped in the car and drove around and around. They could've called the pilot and said they were sick. The pilot does not then come over to their house. They would've had hours and hours to clean the house of evidence.

You're right about one thing: eyebrows would be raised. That's my point. Here, let me lay this scenario on you:

I'm the pilot for someone. I fly his private jet. He's booked me WEEKS in advance to fly his family out the day after Christmas. With less than an hour's notice, he calls me and says he's calling it off. Naturally, I'll ask him why. He gives me a plausible story and I think nothing of it. A short time later (a day, a week) I hear that his daughter was found dead. I'm going to start putting two and two together! Wouldn't you?

As for everything else, I MIGHT (and that's a big IF) expect that if not for one thing: the psychological element. Just how long do you think they wanted a dead body in the house?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That's EXACTLY what I think led to this!



And I'm doing my best to illustrate that.



You're right about one thing: eyebrows would be raised. That's my point. Here, let me lay this scenario on you:

I'm the pilot for someone. I fly his private jet. He's booked me WEEKS in advance to fly his family out the day after Christmas. With less than an hour's notice, he calls me and says he's calling it off. Naturally, I'll ask him why. He gives me a plausible story and I think nothing of it. A short time later (a day, a week) I hear that his daughter was found dead. I'm going to start putting two and two together! Wouldn't you?

As for everything else, I MIGHT (and that's a big IF) expect that if not for one thing: the psychological element. Just how long do you think they wanted a dead body in the house?

Your scenario is wrong.

Naturally, you'd NOT ask him why. If your flight were booked ahead of time, that means you're going to get paid regardless. You're prying to ask.

Further problems with your scenario:

After it becomes news and the pilot goes 'ooh, hey he called and cancelled the flight, that means he killed his kid' LE is going to say 'what are you talking about, of course he cancelled his flight, he was being extorted at the time and was under duress.'

 

[DeeDee249]

You know....the discussion of the pilot and JR's call to him made me think about something I don't believe I have read anything about yet.
We ALL know JR was overheard by police right after JB was found talking to his pilot and arranging a flight to Atlanta. He was told that he was not allowed to leave Boulder.
It is one of the things RDI find suspicious. Who'd leave their daughter's body in the house?

BUT- nothing is mentioned that I am aware of where he calls his pilot earlier (after finding the note and/or making the 911 call).
So WHEN did he actually cancel the flight to Charlevoix? When he made the call to arrange the flight to Atlanta, it was after 1 PM. They were supposed to leave 7 AM that morning. Someone had to have told Mike they weren't leaving as planned, and it would have had to be before their departure time. I guess that would be in the phone records- the ones the DA denied a warrant for. Anyone here know about that first phone call to the pilot? I recall reading somewhere that Mike (who was a friend as well as the family's pilot) came over that morning. Not sure about this, though.

 

[BBB167893]

Your scenario is wrong.

Naturally, you'd NOT ask him why. If your flight were booked ahead of time, that means you're going to get paid regardless. You're prying to ask.

Okay, but even if you eliminate that part, it's the same result.

After it becomes news and the pilot goes 'ooh, hey he called and cancelled the flight, that means he killed his kid' LE is going to say 'what are you talking about, of course he cancelled his flight, he was being extorted at the time and was under duress.'

Look at it from the other side, HOTYH. If LE comes around and asks me if I know anything, and I tell them, "well, he did call and cancel at the last minute. Struck me kind of odd," they might go down that path. But if they no-show and I call and a cop answers, that's all the explanation I need. My sympathy will then be with them. Same deal with the neighbors. And that's the key.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Okay, but even if you eliminate that part, it's the same result.



Look at it from the other side, HOTYH. If LE comes around and asks me if I know anything, and I tell them, "well, he did call and cancel at the last minute. Struck me kind of odd," they might go down that path. But if they no-show and I call and a cop answers, that's all the explanation I need. My sympathy will then be with them. Same deal with the neighbors. And that's the key.

Uh, not really.

I believe I've shown that within RDI, there is no acute need to call 911 when they did, because the script of the RN provided JR with plenty of time, and 101 excuses for anything. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of your argument.

Its a fallacy, really, developed by RDI whereby the RN was needed to 'explain' JBR in the basement. It is also a fallacy that the R's were somehow forced or had no choice but to call 911 when they did. These arguments have not been shown to be correct, by any standard.

 

[BBB167893]

I believe I've shown that within RDI, there is no acute need to call 911 when they did,

I'm sure you do believe that.

because the script of the RN provided JR with plenty of time, and 101 excuses for anything. This is the EXACT OPPOSITE of your argument.

HOTYH, use a little psychology, okay? They could have done all of the things you suggest WITHOUT the RN. The whole point of writing the note was so other people would see it in the hope that they would believe that someone else was responsible. I still contend that it was meant to set somebody up, be it PR or the housekeeper or an AG employee, whomever. Either way, the whole point was so people would know about it. Otherwise, why bother writing the damn thing in the first place?

I'm loathe to make this comparison, but it reminds me of the old joke about the priest who plays golf on Sunday. God decides to punish him by giving him a perfect score. When an angel points out that it doesn't seem like a punishment at all, God remarks, "Who can he tell?"

Its a fallacy, really, developed by RDI whereby the RN was needed to 'explain' JBR in the basement.

I go back and forth on that one.

It is also a fallacy that the R's were somehow forced or had no choice but to call 911 when they did.

That one I stand by.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That one I stand by.

OK.

There's no rationale behind it, but to each his own.

Here's a very basic RDI scenario for you, and this doesn't take much imagination given the plot provided by the note they themselves wrote:

JR calls the pilot and cancels the flight (easy). JR gets in his car at 9:00 to go to the bank. He dumps the garrote, tape, remnants and wrappers from both, knife, wrist ligatures, sharpie pens, pineapple bowls, or anything else he KNEW was connected to the crime except for JBR (that being too conspicuous). He gets 118K from the bank.

Back home, PR pretends to wait for the phone call. JR walks in at 10:00 or 10:30. Then they call 911 because they know JBR is in the house and they need her to be discovered and taken away.

There's a huge advantage for RDI to NOT call 911 at 6, and instead comply with the note while removing possibly incriminating evidence from the crime scene. This would further make it appear an intruder did it, by having more items missing from the crime scene.