IDI: Whats your problem?

[MurriFlower]

SuperDave;5191204]Exactly WHEN did I tell Fang that I had no proof? Don't put words in my mouth.

Whitefang: P.S. I will guarantee 100%, we will see no proof.
SuperDave: I'm sure you won't see it. That's pretty much what I've been trying to say.

and in the following post

Madeline: Exactly,she deserves MUCH MORE than "her mother did it in a fit of rage" (without having any proof).
SuperDave: You want some proof? Okay. There's proof in her intestines: that pineapple. It didn't get there by itself. Pineapple takes 1-2 hours to digest that far down. She was in full rigor when she was brought up, which meant that she had to be dead for 12 hours or so. That was at 1:00 PM. So she had to have died a little after midnight, which is JUST enough time for JB to have eaten it after they got home. They said she was asleep. Do you guys know anyone who eats in their sleep? Or more accurately, someone who could climb up to the top of a table to get it in their sleep? Moreover, can anyone think of any reason why JB would eat it from a stranger? No way. Even if it was a person she knew, what did they do, just wait for it to digest before they killed here? What did they do in that time, play cards? Their story doesn't hold water.

"Rigor mortis, or postmortem stiffening and contraction of all muscles, usually occurs three or more hours after death and can last for approximately 36–48 hours in temperate climates and about 9–12 hours in tropical temperatures."

I just think this is a pretty wide range to have pinpointed her time of death so precisely. Time of death is calculated by many factors, so I was wondering if there was an actual time pinpointed by the Medical Examiner who examined her at, was it 2pm or 3pm?

Will this do: http://www.unani.com/digestion_time_of_foods.htm

2 1/4 Hours
fig, fresh
pear, fresh
pineapple
strawberry
asparagus
carrot
cauliflower
lettuce: cos, loose leaf, iceberg

"The proximal portion of the small intestine contains fragmented pieces of yellow to light green-tan apparently vegetable or fruit material which may represent fragments of pineapple"

Digestion times can vary according to where you get your information: http://www.spice-of-life.com/columns/foodCombining.html

ACID
Grapefruit
Lemon
Lime
Orange
Pineapple
Pomegranate
Strawberry
Tangerine
Tomato

Melons: 5 to 10 minutes
Acid: 20 to 30 minutes
Sub Acid: 30 to 40 minutes
Sweet: 40 to 60 minutes

And you didn't need to use all of that bolding. I'm not blind or stupid.

Just drawing your attention, not intending to suggest either blindness or stupidity. I think you've been known to bold in an attempt to get your message over as well?

 

[BBB167893]

We're all entitled to our theories. I happen to believe rather strongly that what actually happened is more than just a little outside the scope of your theory.

That's fine by me.

And I further believe the experts aren't going to be much help with their statistics or standard approaches, because the case is atypical.

That's something to consider.

That doesn't mean your knowledge is useless. I respect that.

I'm flattered, sir. I feel the same way towards you. Heck, you're practically a friend.

 

[BBB167893]

Whitefang: P.S. I will guarantee 100%, we will see no proof.
SuperDave: I'm sure you won't see it. That's pretty much what I've been trying to say.

Oh, I get it. Sorry about that. I was being sarcastic.

"Rigor mortis, or postmortem stiffening and contraction of all muscles, usually occurs three or more hours after death and can last for approximately 36–48 hours in temperate climates and about 9–12 hours in tropical temperatures."

I just think this is a pretty wide range to have pinpointed her time of death so precisely. Time of death is calculated by many factors, so I was wondering if there was an actual time pinpointed by the Medical Examiner who examined her at, was it 2pm or 3pm?

Dr. Spitz put the time of death at around 12:30 AM.

Digestion times can vary according to where you get your information: http://www.spice-of-life.com/columns/foodCombining.html

True, but as you said, some sources are more reliable than others. The website you mention has less to do with medicine and more to do with New Age-y stuff. PMPT has a good passage on it, too.

Just drawing your attention, not intending to suggest either blindness or stupidity. I think you've been known to bold in an attempt to get your message over as well?

Sorry, MurriFlower. Lately, it's hard for me to tell what's serious and what's condescension.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Oh, I get it. Sorry about that. I was being sarcastic.



Dr. Spitz put the time of death at around 12:30 AM.



True, but as you said, some sources are more reliable than others. The website you mention has less to do with medicine and more to do with New Age-y stuff. PMPT has a good passage on it, too.



Sorry, MurriFlower. Lately, it's hard for me to tell what's serious and what's condescension.

I'm going to interject an observation here. I think this is understandable on the part of SD. There has been an awful lot of what can be perceived as condescension going on. It furthers no one's cause. In fact, it does quite the opposite. It is tedious and tiring and serves the purpose of making one feel that they need to side with the person being attacked. And yes, it has escalated to the point of attacks. As in I, who do not know SD from Adam's House Cat, feel the mother in me wanting to say, "Lay off him, willya?"

Let's stick to the facts or the thought-out theories based on the facts as we know them, can we? This was an awesome thread until hitting below the belt came into being.

 

[Jane Osa]

Thanks SuperDave for pointing out the fact that DNA does not EXCLUDE anyone - it only includes. It does not 'exonerate' anyone.

There is 'unknown' DNA in the Casey Anthony case

There is 'unknown' DNA in the Darlie Routier case.

It's clear to me that these mother's killed their children - I hope the jury doesn't get convinced by this 'unknown' DNA and the prosecutor does their job. The Darlie case is 'on hold' so to speak for review becasue of this 'unknown' DNA - she's on death row where she belongs.

It seems that most IDI folks think this way because of the DNA and not much else - well, excluding at least one person. By the way, if I were part of a 'small foreign faction' I'd come up with a name for geezer's sake! Something cool - so as not to waste breath saying - 'small foreign faction'.

JR's daughter's palm print is on the basement door & his son's semen is on a child's blanket in a suitcase - those facts are more interesting to me than 'unknown' DNA at this point. Although, I accept that the print & semen are most likely 'innocent'. But, it creeps me out, still.

 

[DeeDee249]

Thanks SuperDave for pointing out the fact that DNA does not EXCLUDE anyone - it only includes. It does not 'exonerate' anyone.

There is 'unknown' DNA in the Casey Anthony case

There is 'unknown' DNA in the Darlie Routier case.

It's clear to me that these mother's killed their children - I hope the jury doesn't get convinced by this 'unknown' DNA and the prosecutor does their job. The Darlie case is 'on hold' so to speak for review becasue of this 'unknown' DNA - she's on death row where she belongs.

It seems that most IDI folks think this way because of the DNA and not much else - well, excluding at least one person. By the way, if I were part of a 'small foreign faction' I'd come up with a name for geezer's sake! Something cool - so as not to waste breath saying - 'small foreign faction'.

JR's daughter's palm print is on the basement door & his son's semen is on a child's blanket in a suitcase - those facts are more interesting to me than 'unknown' DNA at this point. Although, I accept that the print & semen are most likely 'innocent'. But, it creeps me out, still.

The handprint from JR's daughter certainly must be from a previous visit. I don't think anyone believes she was there when JB was killed.
The semen is another matter. It can't be "dated" as to when it was left, and there is some speculation as to whether he was there or not when JB was killed. Semen on a blanket/comforter that is from a college boy's dorm room is not unusual. The suitcase was identified as one that he used to bring back and forth to college. It was Christmas break- maybe he brought it home to be laundered. It was the Dr. Seuss book, to me, that raises an eyebrow. It certainly isn't something you'd expect to see in there.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

It seems that most IDI folks think this way because of the DNA and not much else - well, excluding at least one person. By the way, if I were part of a 'small foreign faction' I'd come up with a name for geezer's sake! Something cool - so as not to waste breath saying - 'small foreign faction'.

Lets suppose the RN author named the foreign faction, and its a known entity. What happens then?

Uh, durrr?

 

[Jane Osa]

Thanks DeeDee - I did figure the daughter's print to be from an earlier visit. But the situation with JR's son creeps me. Could be nothing, though, and seems to add up to nothing - he does have an alibi, althought 'going to the movies' alibis are kinda 'classic'. And his alibi is somewhat intertwined with his sister's, right? But, still - it's a stretch. If he were in that house that night, or could be proved to be - well then, whole different case!

For me, as an RDI, it's figuring out which one that drives me bonkers! Sometimes BR makes sense - but, I don't think he'd hold up in interrogation - however, if he had some type of aspergers perhaps he could get through it. I also don't know the extent of his interrogation. You'd also think he'd have the 'story' straight that JB was asleep, etc. whereas he's truthful that she was up & the pineapple, etc. And then I think JR, then P, ugh.

Anyway - thanks for clarifying!

 

[WHITEFANG]

Richard A. Jewell (December 17, 1962 – August 29, 2007) was an American security guard who became known in connection with the Centennial Olympic Park bombing at the 1996 Summer Olympics in Atlanta, Georgia, United States. Jewell, working as a private security guard for Piedmont College, discovered a pipe bomb, alerted police, and helped to evacuate the area before it exploded, saving many people from injury or potential death. Initially hailed by the media as a hero, Jewell later was considered a suspect.

Despite having never been charged, he underwent what was considered by many to be a "trial by media" with great toll on his personal and professional life. Eventually he was exonerated completely: Eric Robert Rudolph was later found to have been the bomber. In 2006, Governor Sonny Perdue publicly thanked Jewell on behalf of the state of Georgia for saving the lives of those at the Olympics.


Early news reports lauded Jewell as a hero for helping to evacuate the area after he spotted the suspicious package. Three days later, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution revealed that the FBI was treating him as a possible suspect, based largely on a "lone bomber" criminal profile. For the next several weeks, the news media focused aggressively on him as the presumed culprit, sifting through his life to match a leaked "lone bomber" profile that the FBI had used. The media, to varying degrees, portrayed Jewell as a failed law enforcement officer who may have planted the bomb so he could find it and be a hero.

Two of the bombing victims filed lawsuits against Jewell on the basis of this reporting. In a reference to the Unabomber, Jay Leno called him the "Una-doofus".[6] Other references include "Una-Bubba," [7] and (of his mother) "Una-Mama." Jewell was never officially charged, but the FBI searched his home, questioned his associates, investigated his background, and maintained twenty-four hour surveillance of him. The pressure only began to ease after Jewell's attorneys hired an ex-FBI agent to administer a polygraph which Jewell reportedly passed.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Lets suppose the RN author named the foreign faction, and its a known entity. What happens then?

Uh, durrr?

Then it becomes an international incident with investigators much adept at tearing apart a staged kidnapping scenario.

Uh, durrr?

The very kind of comments I alluded to before. Why are they necessary?

 

[Jane Osa]

Well HOTYH - I've always thought of the idea of the 'small foreign faction' as, well, small - i.e., underground, etc. or, well, a small group of people - I would have a freakin' name! Most of those groups do, and whether it's smart or not to 'crow' about it, they do - 'cause they are full of themselves, want attention, etc. I mean, wouldn't part of the point be that they are known - like a name for their 'group' that doesn't trace to them or identify them per se - but, allows for others to know what they stand for?

But, of course, I was joking, anyway. The idea of a 'small foreign faction' kidnapping a six year old for whatever reason is preposterous to me. I know you don't agree.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Between 1996 and 1998, Rudolph committed a series of bombings across the southern United States which killed two people and injured at least 150 others.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Well HOTYH - I've always thought of the idea of the 'small foreign faction' as, well, small - i.e., underground, etc. or, well, a small group of people - I would have a freakin' name! Most of those groups do, and whether it's smart or not to 'crow' about it, they do - 'cause they are full of themselves, want attention, etc. I mean, wouldn't part of the point be that they are known - like a name for their 'group' that doesn't trace to them or identify them per se - but, allows for others to know what they stand for?

But, of course, I was joking, anyway. The idea of a 'small foreign faction' kidnapping a six year old for whatever reason is preposterous to me. I know you don't agree.

Oh, and I suppose Ozzie and Harriet brutally murdering their own daughter and writing a letter about beheading her is NOT preposterous.

Right.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Between 1996 and 1998, Rudolph committed a series of bombings across the southern United States which killed two people and injured at least 150 others.

He committed them by walking into a private residence, hanging out to write a 350-word ransom note, feeding a child pineapple, sexually abusing her, garroting her, covering her, leaving her in a closet in the basement of her home?

This comparison, to me, is apples and oranges. And even Rudolph had a perceived cause. What was the cause of this "small foreign faction?"

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Then it becomes an international incident with investigators much adept at tearing apart a staged kidnapping scenario?

I can see you are confused by the paradox presented by a kidnapping for ransom on the one hand, and a sexual assault plus murder on the other.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The very kind of comments I alluded to before. Why are they necessary?

Thats just you taking my remark out of context, which wasn't hard to do.

What I meant was the foreign faction, by naming themselves, invite upon themselves perhaps some unwanted focus. That would be a 'durrr' thing to do on their part. By naming themselves as foreign with a disrespect for this country was probably intended as a 'we did this, we're foreign but you don't know who we are' taunt for LE. I suggest reading the RN, where the author in fact threatens more killing. That would add to the taunting aspect of the note.

Taunts for LE are common among famous criminals. Maybe I'll look some up.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

I can see you are confused by the paradox presented by a kidnapping for ransom on the one hand, and a sexual assault plus murder on the other.

Nooooo. I can see when someone has reached their limit and resorts to any argument, plus name calling, to try and make their point. Which you did many hours ago.

Do you really believe that JBR was sexually assaulted and then murdered because of it? If so, please present your proof. But I have to warn you I've gone down that road and it was a dead-end.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Thats just you taking my remark out of context, which wasn't hard to do.

What I meant was the foreign faction, by naming themselves, invite upon themselves perhaps some unwanted focus. That would be a 'durrr' thing to do on their part. By naming themselves as foreign with a disrespect for this country was probably intended as a 'we did this, we're foreign but you don't know who we are' taunt for LE. I suggest reading the RN, where the author in fact threatens more killing. That would add to the taunting aspect of the note.

Taunts for LE are common among famous criminals. Maybe I'll look some up.

No need. I was probably around when their taunts were headlines.

What I meant was the foreign faction, by naming themselves, invite upon themselves perhaps some unwanted focus.

Is that not the whole purpose behind kidnappings on the part of "small foreign factions?" Is not the purpose to bring attention to themselves? Surely it's not to fund their cause ransom by ransom. What a risky way to do business. There are so many other ways to get cash than to go to a foreign country, kidnap a small child on Christmas night in the heart of a safe, quiet, ritzy neighborhood, while her family is home no less.

No self-respecting "small foreign faction" would do business like this. No self-respecting "small foreign faction" would have botched the job to this degree. Now I feel the need to defend "small foreign factions!" They infiltrated the US from their homeland, scoped in on JR, chose Christmas night as the perfect date, when folks are out of their normal routines and visit back and forth....when cops tend to cruise the streets for people trying to add to their wealth by stealing the added wealth of others.....they skulked into this house and took this child, wrote this note and laid her out...blanket and all....in the basement of her house? And then made no further phone calls, no further demands. If "their" kidnap plan had gone wrong and "they'd" left JBR stuck in the bowels of that house, would "they" not have at least tried one more time for a ransom? History is full of kidnapping instances where the kidnappers killed the child and continued to make demands of the parents. But in this case, nothing.

Frankly, I think the IDIs in this case have read too many spy novels, just like I think the RDIs in the Haleigh Cummings case have watched too many soaps. Time to get heads back to straight.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I can see you are confused by the paradox presented by a kidnapping for ransom on the one hand, and a sexual assault plus murder on the other.

Nooooo.

OK you're not confused. Please explain to me the paradox.

Robert Ressler seems confused by it, Gregg McCrary called it a paradox. I'm sure confused. That is, I don't know why there are superimposed motives.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

No self-respecting "small foreign faction" would do business like this. No self-respecting "small foreign faction" would have botched the job to this degree. Now I feel the need to defend "small foreign factions!" They infiltrated the US from their homeland, scoped in on JR, chose Christmas night as the perfect date, when folks are out of their normal routines and visit back and forth....when cops tend to cruise the streets for people trying to add to their wealth by stealing the added wealth of others.....they skulked into this house and took this child, wrote this note and laid her out...blanket and all....in the basement of her house? And then made no further phone calls, no further demands. If "their" kidnap plan had gone wrong and "they'd" left JBR stuck in the bowels of that house, would "they" not have at least tried one more time for a ransom? History is full of kidnapping instances where the kidnappers killed the child and continued to make demands of the parents. But in this case, nothing.

I'm sorry but I have to put my foot down on your rant. You've no idea that the 'job' was botched because you've no idea what the 'job' even was.

You'd be needing to know the truth before you can know whether or not anything was botched. Maybe it went perfectly to plan. You don't know because YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE PLAN WAS.