If Death was accidental then why the elaborate cover up?

[Seeker]

OK this has been nagging at me.

If he "accidentally" killed her with chloroform, then why do all the staging as well? Just what was the point of wasting all that time?

No need to hit her head hard enough to crack her skull like it was, no need to strangle her with a cord either. No need for a 2 1/2 page ransom note if they were "lovers"...yeah, like I or anyone else really believes that one.
If he was so "in love" with her why didn't he seek immediate medical attention? Why didn't he take her body with him?

Seriously, why the elaborate cover up and why didn't he leave more DNA? Hair? etc?

Karr told The Associated Press on Thursday as police brought him through his guesthouse to collect belongings following his arrest. "It's very important for me that everyone knows that I love her very much, that her death was unintentional, that it was an accident."


Riiiight, then he left her all alone on a cold bare floor in a hidden basement room?


I think this guy just wanted a free trip back to the US.

 

[Wudge]

OK this has been nagging at me.

If he "accidentally" killed her with chloroform, then why do all the staging as well? Just what was the point of wasting all that time?

No need to hit her head hard enough to crack her skull like it was, no need to strangle her with a cord either. No need for a 2 1/2 page ransom note if they were "lovers"...yeah, like I or anyone else really believes that one.
If he was so "in love" with her why didn't he seek immediate medical attention? Why didn't he take her body with him?

Seriously, why the elaborate cover up and why didn't he leave more DNA? Hair? etc?

Karr told The Associated Press on Thursday as police brought him through his guesthouse to collect belongings following his arrest. "It's very important for me that everyone knows that I love her very much, that her death was unintentional, that it was an accident."


Riiiight, then he left her all alone on a cold bare floor in a hidden basement room?


I think this guy just wanted a free trip back to the US.

Right now, intent is shaping up to be a very key question. As for a free trip back, he has one coming up.

 

[JBean]

OK this has been nagging at me.

If he "accidentally" killed her with chloroform, then why do all the staging as well? Just what was the point of wasting all that time?

No need to hit her head hard enough to crack her skull like it was, no need to strangle her with a cord either. No need for a 2 1/2 page ransom note if they were "lovers"...yeah, like I or anyone else really believes that one.
If he was so "in love" with her why didn't he seek immediate medical attention? Why didn't he take her body with him?

Seriously, why the elaborate cover up and why didn't he leave more DNA? Hair? etc?

Karr told The Associated Press on Thursday as police brought him through his guesthouse to collect belongings following his arrest. "It's very important for me that everyone knows that I love her very much, that her death was unintentional, that it was an accident."


Riiiight, then he left her all alone on a cold bare floor in a hidden basement room?


I think this guy just wanted a free trip back to the US.

Hi Seeker:blowkiss: why would he want a free trip back to the US by LE where there was a warrant out for him when he was strting a new job with children??
Nothing about the crime in general makes sense to me, so to try and explain why anyone did what makes my head swim

 

[PaperDoll]

I agree Seeker.. Too much drama for a simple "OOOOPS I didn't mean to kill her" from an intruder..

 

[blonde1]

Hi Seeker:blowkiss: why would he want a free trip back to the US by LE where there was a warrant out for him when he was strting a new job with children??
Nothing about the crime in general makes sense to me, so to try and explain why anyone did what makes my head swim

The more I read and hear, the more I think the answer to all questions about Karr is: "Because he's crazy!"

 

[Seeker]

Hi Seeker:blowkiss: why would he want a free trip back to the US by LE where there was a warrant out for him when he was strting a new job with children??
Nothing about the crime in general makes sense to me, so to try and explain why anyone did what makes my head swim

Has it been confirmed that he just started a new teaching job? I've only seen Mary Lacy say that...
Seems like he's been fired more often than not...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060818/ap_on_re_as/jonbenet_ramsey_105
An administrator at an elite Bangkok school described Karr as articulate and polite, but too strict, and said he was fired after two weeks on the job.

"John Karr came to us with a good resume and with credentials, but then we allowed him a trial (period) with students, we found he was too strict," said Banchong Chompowong, an administrator at Bangkok Christian College's elementary school.

His credentials were probably faked. Notice he was living in a guethouse? Maybe he was being evicted as well.

-snip-
Suwat said Karr, whom he described as "quiet and kind of strange," now wanted to go back to the United States to fight the case.

He said U.S. authorities were preparing documents and plane tickets for the return journey. The departure could take place at any time, he said.

The divorced father of three children, once detained on charges of possessing child , apparently traveled the world searching for teaching jobs. Suwat said the suspect had visited several Asian countries in recent years, but provided no details.



-snip-
In June, he taught first graders at Bangkok Christian College, Thailand's oldest private school, established by American Presbyterian missionaries in 1852. The school caters to about 5,500 male students in 12 grades and is regarded as one of Bangkok's top private schools.

"He was qualified to be a teacher. He had a diploma and has experience in teaching in Bangkok for some time," said Banchong, assistant director of the school's English immersion program.

He was very presentable, Banchong said. But he was dismissed after two weeks when parents complained that he was too strict with their children, he said.

Banchong said that Karr also had taught at St. Joseph's Convent, another prestigious elementary and secondary Thai school. But officials there refused to talk to reporters.

My hinky meter is going off big time on this guy and his real reasons for wanting to leave there...I really don't believe his confession. Seems like he's already changed it with Thai authorities...

 

[2luvmy]

Seriously, why the elaborate cover up and why didn't he leave more DNA? Hair? etc?

He looks to me to be pretty clean shaven. No hair on arms or face.

If it was him, he didn't leave much DNA/hair etc. just like all the other killers out there...they don't want to get caught. How many unsolved murders are there out there where there is no DNA evidence.

I am so on the fence. So much points to someone in the family, yet this guy is a psycho and I think LE would be absolutely stupid to stir up so much hoopla and accuse Karr if they didn't have something. If Karr is not the guy, this will go down in history as one of the biggest LE guffaws ever - would they really take that risk?

 

[Sherlockmom]

>OK this has been nagging at me.

If he "accidentally" killed her with chloroform, then why do all the staging as well? Just what was the point of wasting all that time? <<


Because he was lying. If he did this it wasn't an accident. Any clear thinking person can see this wasn't an accident. If it was he would have ran, not hung around bashing her over the head, strangling her and staging her body.

The reason he is claiming it was an accident is that he doesn't want to be charged with 1st degree premeditated murder. He is a pediophile/child molestor. Lying is something they are very skilled at. It's part of their MO in getting children to put their trust in them. I would assume that a good percentage of whatever comes out of the mouth of one of these guys is AT LEAST 50% not true.

It is possible that he did do this and is putting out red herrings and misinformation to make himself look either insane or not guilty.

No way did he want to come back to the US. He wasn't in ANY trouble over there in Thailand and I don't know where that misinformation keeps coming from. He had to go from job to job leaving each state as he got caught. He probably finally realized that if he fled the country and went elsewhere to either work as private tutor, nanny, teacher that they wouldn't know his background and he could molest little children with impunity. Things were too hot over here and actually, child molestation is more common in some other countries than it is here. No way did he want to come back here.

I think he got a twisted kind of pleasure talking about this crime and perhaps pretending that he actually carried it out. Even if he did do this I think he enjoyed torturing Pat Ramsey with the details.

Time will tell if it was he or not. Either way, a piece of scum will be behind bars hopefully. And on the good side his face and name are so well known I doubt he'll get a job anywhere here in the US that has anything to do with kids and hopefully he'll be put on some kind of international watch list also. I'd like to see someone dedicated to following this piece of human garbage around every day 24/7 so he has to be looking over his shoulder constantly.

 

[JBean]

Has it been confirmed that he just started a new teaching job? I've only seen Mary Lacy say that...
Seems like he's been fired more often than not

I'm not sure if he has changed his confession with the Thai authorities as much as the Thai authorities have changed it for him. Suwat is full of carp. I didn't know Lacy was to be doubted, I thought that she was a reasonably good source considering they had been surveilling him. I know he has a lousy work record, but he only been at the new job for a couple days. Not enough time to be fired...YET! LOL. he could have left the country on his own at any time couldn't he have?

I have no idea if he did it or not, I am just soaking up the info.

 

[Seeker]

>OK this has been nagging at me.

If he "accidentally" killed her with chloroform, then why do all the staging as well? Just what was the point of wasting all that time? <<


Because he was lying. If he did this it wasn't an accident. Any clear thinking person can see this wasn't an accident. If it was he would have ran, not hung around bashing her over the head, strangling her and staging her body.

The reason he is claiming it was an accident is that he doesn't want to be charged with 1st degree premeditated murder. He is a pediophile/child molestor.

We don't know that he has ever actually acted out on any of his fantasy's, so I don't know if we can actually state with any certainty that he is a child molester.

Lying is something they are very skilled at. It's part of their MO in getting children to put their trust in them.

I agree, but where do we see any children directly involved with him in that regard?

I would assume that a good percentage of whatever comes out of the mouth of one of these guys is AT LEAST 50% not true.

It is possible that he did do this and is putting out red herrings and misinformation to make himself look either insane or not guilty.

Very possible. He already said he was not innocent of the crime though...

No way did he want to come back to the US. He wasn't in ANY trouble over there in Thailand

Well not that we know of, or that just hasn't come to light yet.

and I don't know where that misinformation keeps coming from.

You've never seen that from me.

He had to go from job to job leaving each state as he got caught.

Caught? Care to elaborate? If he was "caught" doing something wrong then he was in, or about to be in some serious trouble right? Not just in having child , but something far more serious.

He probably finally realized that if he fled the country and went elsewhere to either work as private tutor, nanny, teacher that they wouldn't know his background and he could molest little children with impunity. Things were too hot over here and actually, child molestation is more common in some other countries than it is here. No way did he want to come back here.

We don't know that and he's never been accused of child molstation anywhere has he? Talk about misinformation! lol

I think he got a twisted kind of pleasure talking about this crime and perhaps pretending that he actually carried it out. Even if he did do this I think he enjoyed torturing Pat Ramsey with the details.

But we now know he never talked to her, or e-mailed her so how could he be torturing her with the details?

Time will tell if it was he or not. Either way, a piece of scum will be behind bars hopefully. And on the good side his face and name are so well known I doubt he'll get a job anywhere here in the US that has anything to do with kids and hopefully he'll be put on some kind of international watch list also. I'd like to see someone dedicated to following this piece of human garbage around every day 24/7 so he has to be looking over his shoulder constantly.

On that you and I agree 100%!!! Personally I think scum that have this disease should be treated like rabid dogs. There is NO cure and too many people can and do get scarred for life because of them.

 

[BBB167893]

"Very possible. He already said he was not innocent of the crime though..."

Well, he said he wasn't innocent, period. That could mean anything. I know people who, even if they haven't done anything, they still feel guilty.

 

[Shelayne]

I saw a psychologist that specializes on these kinds of crimes, and she said his "It was an accident" completely fits the predator MO. She said they will often be hurting the child, and believe that the child is enjoying it. They can torture and kill the child and still believe that it was an accident. She said she was not surprised by him saying that.

Of course, someone who would MARRY a 12-year-old girl, and later a 16-year-old girl, I think has a pretty warped sense of everything.

 

[BBB167893]

Yeah, they always justify it that way, but Wendy Murphy asked the question I've asked: since there was so much staging, why would an intruder stage it to LOOK like an intruder?

 

[stonewall]

OK this has been nagging at me.

I think this guy just wanted a free trip back to the US.

I don't think he would be wanting a free trip back to the U.S. when he had just started a new job there. Sounds to me like he wasn't planning to leave there anytime soon.

 

[BBB167893]

But in one of their prisons?

 

[Sherlockmom]

>I agree, but where do we see any children directly involved with him in that regard? <


He fled Sonoma because he was caught with kiddie on his computer. After that he obtained teaching jobs and jobs as a private tutor/nanny overseas. I'd say that he most likely wasn't forthcoming on his resumes about his past and he was presenting himself to little children, particularly little girls which he claimed were especially "close to him" as a safe person to be around. Someone whom they could trust. I would say this was misrepresenting himself to these children.

I'd say there was a very very strong possibility that Mr. Karr progressed beyond kiddie as he was putting himself in situations where he had close contact with children and probably was left alone with them unsupervised.

It is unclear from a couple of his other jobs the exact nature of the reason for his dismissals. One claimed he said things that didn't need to be said to children but never specified what that was. It seems that he was passed along from one school to another in many cases.

>Very possible. He already said he was not innocent of the crime though...<

He didn't exactly say that. If you go back and watch the news conference he was asked if he was an innocent man and he said no. That could mean many things. He wasn't asked if he was innocent of JBR's murder. His answers were very measured. I found some of them odd and curious. Perhaps having more than one meaning and could be taken several ways. I think this was on purpose. But it is just my opinion.

>Caught? Care to elaborate? If he was "caught" doing something wrong then he was in, or about to be in some serious trouble right? Not just in having child , but something far more serious. <

In almost every case it seemed he left town before it was time to pay the piper. In one case he left before the charges were to be brought up for review. I think it was in the above case I referenced with the inappropriate statements. Obviously if you look at his travel history and job history this was a man trying to keep one step ahead of his past. He was caught acting inappropriately in several instances. The nature of this is sometimes unclear but in several of the cases it involved things he said, his behavior with the children being odd etc.

>We don't know that and he's never been accused of child molstation anywhere has he? Talk about misinformation! lol<

Nor did I say he had been. I think it was pretty clear that this was my opinion. I never stated it as a fact nor try to present it as information that was fact. However it WAS being presented as fact that he was confessing to get out of a Thai jail when indeed he hadn't been arrested and jailed for anything over there.

>But we now know he never talked to her, or e-mailed her so how could he be torturing her with the details? <

Because HE didn't know that Patsy wasn't reading these and they were diverted from her. I believe I read that they were being received and answered by someone else. In other words, they were PRETENDING to be Patsy. Mr. Karr still believed he was corresponding with her or he wouldn't have kept it up. So therefore, I believe he was deriving some sort of perverse pleasure from doing so.

I'm not even sure that he actually committed this murder. I do believe though that he took a perverse pleasure in the case and presenting himself as the murderer. This murder was so vicious that I think whomever did it had a great hatred for one or both of the Ramseys. I tend to lean towards the suspicion that it was someone who was sending a strong message to them either a warning or it was revenge. I don't know if we will ever know but just the fact that it was committed in their own home while they were sleeping and her body was posed and left in the basement, well, it is just about the worst thing you could do to the parents of a little girl. This may have been more about the Ramseys then JB.

Although I've followed the case over the years and have read a couple of books about it my memory is vague as I haven't been as up to date on it until this breaking news and I haven't followed it as closely as some other dedicated WBers. So you all can give my opinions as much weight as you think they deserve.

 

[BeeBee]

Yeah, they always justify it that way, but Wendy Murphy asked the question I've asked: since there was so much staging, why would an intruder stage it to LOOK like an intruder?

The "staging" aspect has always been because it was thought the Ramseys did it and staged it to look like an intruder. IF a real intruder did it, it wouldn't be "staging", it would be torturing. An intruder wouldn't try to stage it to look like an intruder. Right?

 

[otto]

Yeah, they always justify it that way, but Wendy Murphy asked the question I've asked: since there was so much staging, why would an intruder stage it to LOOK like an intruder?

Let's suppose that Karr is the guy and it was his intention to take JonBenet out of the house with him. He goes in the house when the family is out, snoops around, gathers information, writes the retarded note, puts everything back where he found it, goes to the basement and waits for the family to go to sleep. After he thinks it's safe, he goes upstairs, leaves the note on the stairs where the parents would find it, goes to JonBenet's room and either shocks her into complaince or entices her to go downstairs with a promise of something. He's been fantasizing about her for hours and once he sees her, he can't contain himself any longer so he takes her downstairs to where he was hiding and assaults her, except she won't stay still. He then hits her in the head to control her. After, he realizes that the blow to the head was too much and rather than carry a limp girl out of the house, he decides he's overdone it and kills her. Nothing is staged anymore.

 

[otto]

I don't think he would be wanting a free trip back to the U.S. when he had just started a new job there. Sounds to me like he wasn't planning to leave there anytime soon.

I agree. He had just started a new job last Tuesday. Given his travels to South America, Europe and Asia, he probably didn't need a free trip to the states. He had not been detained for any violations in Bangkok and was apparently living like he had for the last 4 years. There is no obvious reason to believe that this was a stunt to get himself free airfare to a country that had an arrest warrant for him.

 

[Amraann]

The "staging" aspect has always been because it was thought the Ramseys did it and staged it to look like an intruder. IF a real intruder did it, it wouldn't be "staging", it would be torturing. An intruder wouldn't try to stage it to look like an intruder. Right?

Great post! :clap: :clap: :clap: