If Miranda argument is upheld

[Turnadot]

Even when Inmate Anthony is actually arrested, she does not look too upset (scared, nervous, shocked, intimidated by LE) about it.

Yep. I also note too that she's isn't grinning in the mugshot. IMO, this means when LE snapped KC's pic with the visitor's badge, she didn't believe she was in custody; she believed she was there to help until she was, 'Arrested on a f'g whim.'

 

[A_News_Junkie]

I agree that what happened in the Universal Q&A will be tossed. Not like it matters, her talk with Yuri at Hopespring Drive will come in, imo, and the 911 tapes are in. I'm sure KC's written statement will make it in too.

I'd like to add here that even if everything after KC was handcuffed get's tossed, I still don't think the rookie cop did anything wrong that day at all. When he rolled up to that scene, it must have been chaotic as heck and he could only go on what information he had at that moment.

Also, the detectives that went with her to Universal didn't do anything wrong either, they were looking for a kidnapped baby. They were doing all in their power to get the baby's mother to talk, and I can't fault them for that at all.

Okay, way behind in this thread. But have a question: Does anyone know if LE took the home computer before or after the official (real) arrest? The reason I am asking is I am listening to the Universal interview again and they get permission from KC to get the computer to find the communications with 'nanny'........so, if JB gets this tossed out - does the computer forensics go out the door too?

 

[A_News_Junkie]

1:35 ish this segment -- does a person in custody laugh and have small talk?
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65OHVT6y63E&feature=related[/ame]

:banghead: I can see bits and pieces of the argument both ways here - still trying to make up my own mind.......but, either way all I have seen of Judge Perry makes me know he will rule correctly. Amazing to NEVER have been overturned.

AZ you said way back in the beginning of the thread that it would not have mattered why she was placed in custody theft vs neglect vs murder. Do you explain that more anywhere? Does the law address that? If ANYONE knows where this is addressed more, please be so kind as to hit me with a link!

Did I say :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: yet?

 

[Dihan]

Why do big scary policemen restrain tiny little girls in cars, who restrain tiny little girls in cars, to show tiny little girls that restraining tiny little girls in cars is bad?

This post made my day,can't stop laughing. Thanks i needed that :floorlaugh::yourock:

 

[Turnadot]

1:35 ish this segment -- does a person in custody laugh and have small talk?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65OHVT6y63E&feature=related

I think the threshold is, does a reasonable person in custody laugh and make small talk? I'd say no, and I consider myself reasonable enough. That's the reason for the threshold, imo, to give people who seem bat***** crazy a fair shake in Court. Basically: They aren't reasonable hence, they know not what they do.

ETA: I want to add that even if I had the guts to lead detectives down a hallway, when I turned and said, 'I'm lying to you. I don't work here.' And we all went into the Universal room to chat, as a reasonable person I'd have an oh crap I'm toast moment, and feel like I was in LE custody. A reasonable person, imo, would have burst into tears or at the very least been very nervous in that room. A reasonable person would not have smoothly admitted to lying then turn right around at the end of the interview and claim once again that everything she said was true.

I think LDB's closing argument was compelling though.

Can't wait for HHJP to rule on this.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

And the poor little tiny girl was a 30 minute walk from home - such a long way. Don't y'all have cabs down there in Orlando? And if she had her cell, couldn't she have called one of her parents to pick her up if she wanted to leave? WTH?

Oh yes and to follow Mason's "logic" she should have been allowed to drive separately (the decompmobile?) because once she was there at universal she didn't have a car to leave, so she was in custody. (Forget that she went willingly). This kind of stuff from the defense needs to stop it insults our intelligence.

 

[MADJGNLAW]

Was not sure where to post this, mod's plz move as needed. I have been going over old doc's, text, and audios regarding what Casey told LE, family, and friends to see if by chance some of her statements get thrown out how many more will still remain where she blames the so called "Nanny" as the person who took Caylee. She has stuck to her story that ZFG took Caylee, even Baez went on the air stating that LE has not found the right one if I am not mistaken. She claimed the phone that was missing was the phone she used for work at Universal.


If we go back to all the times she blames ZFG as the person who took Caylee and the reason for the 911 call we can conclude that Casey did not need to have her Miranda Rights read to her at that time, "up until the arrest July 16". Right, I hope? Anyone follow?:crazy:

The call came from Cindy that Casey stole her car, then it was that Caylee was missing, then it was that "CASEY ADMITTED THAT THE BABY SITTER TOOK CAYLE" The babysitter ZFG...that Casey spelled out the name for LE. Right? :crazy:


"snip" BBMDocuments LINK from IDDC: http://investigation.discovery.com/...full_coverage/files/caylee_anthony_files.html


July 15, 2008 Cindy and Amy H. show up at Tony's house looking for Casey. Amy told him that Casey had stolen from her and he needed to check his account. 20 min after Cindy took Casey home with her Tony got a call from Lee A. telling him that Casey admitted to Lee that she had not seen Caylee in over 31 days. No cops involved yet at this point.
Read here: http://investigation.discovery.com/...l_coverage/files/anthony-lazaro-interview.pdf


Arrest Affidavit - On July 16, investigators discovered that Casey had been lying about her place of employment and other details regarding her daughter's disappearance. As a result, Casey was arrested and charged with child neglect, making false official statements, and obstructing an investigation.

OK, so even if the Universal statements can't come in how about her statements to LE after her arrest July 16th?
Investigators' first interview of Casey Anthony | July 16, 2008 0411 HRS

First interview of Casey Anthony by investigators on July 16 after her arrest

This is the first of two audio files released by the Orange County Sheriff's Office of investigators interviewing Casey Anthony on July 16 - the day the 22-year-old mother was arrested.


Here's a guide to some highlights of this recording:
1:30 - Detective talks to Casey Anthony about when Caylee went missing.
2:48 - Casey talks about how she met Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez.
9:30 - Casey explains what happened the day Caylee disappeared.
11:12 - Casey says who she talked to about Caylee missing.
13:40 - Casey describes how she tried to find Zenaida.
14:40 - Casey tells detectives why she did not alert them earlier.



ORANGE COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE
You can listen to the entire audio.
Here:
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/nationworld/orl-caylee-anthony-case,0,3157747.htmlpage


Attorney's Letter - On July 21, Casey's attorney sent a letter to the Orange County Sheriff's Office, which stated that Casey was willing to "cooperate fully" with law enforcement. (Why didn't Baez at this time say hey my client was falsy imprissioned? )

Bond Order - On July 22, Circuit Court Judge Stan Strickland chastised Casey for her behavior and set her bail at $500,000.

Motion for Protective Order -July 28, Casey's attorney filed a motion for a protective order.


Social Networking Subpoena - July 29, Casey's attorney subpoenaed the records for her MySpace and Facebook accounts.

Attorney General's Response - On July 30, Attorney General Bill McCollum issued a written response to an appeal request that Casey's attorney filed on July 24. Within it, McCollum concluded that Baez, "failed to show that such action by the trial court was arbitrary, fanciful, or unreasonable."

Formal Charges - August 5, Casey was formally charged with a felony count of child neglect and another misdemeanor offense.

Search Warrant - August 6, investigators executed a search warrant at Casey's home.

Bail Bond - On August 21, Casey was freed from jail.


Sept. 15 Arrest Affidavit - On Sept. 15, Casey Anthony was, once again, under arrest. http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/files/MONDAYfraud.pdf


Anyone follow where I am going lol...sorry for the long post. :crazy::crazy::crazy:

 

[chefmom]

I think the threshold is, does a reasonable person in custody laugh and make small talk? I'd say no, and I consider myself reasonable enough. That's the reason for the threshold, imo, to give people who seem bat***** crazy a fair shake in Court. Basically: They aren't reasonable hence, they know not what they do.

ETA: I want to add that even if I had the guts to lead detectives down a hallway, when I turned and said, 'I'm lying to you. I don't work here.' And we all went into the Universal room to chat, as a reasonable person I'd have an oh crap I'm toast moment, and feel like I was in LE custody. A reasonable person, imo, would have burst into tears or at the very least been very nervous in that room. A reasonable person would not have smoothly admitted to lying then turn right around at the end of the interview and claim once again that everything she said was true.

I think LDB's closing argument was compelling though.

Can't wait for HHJP to rule on this.

I agree with what you say but I have to add that a reasonable person who was making a claim of a missing child would be distraught, would not lie to LE about the circumstances, and would not wait 31 days to report. Keeping in mind that it was CA who actually reported her missing, if little KC A had had it her way, no one would have ever known a thing and Caylee would have been a forgotten child. MOO.

 

[Turnadot]

I agree with what you say but I have to add that a reasonable person who was making a claim of a missing child would be distraught, would not lie to LE about the circumstances, and would not wait 31 days to report. Keeping in mind that it was CA who actually reported her missing, if little KC A had had it her way, no one would have ever known a thing and Caylee would have been a forgotten child. MOO.

I agree with you 100%. And imo, it's clear that KC is not a reasonable person, by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[chefmom]

I agree with you 100%. And imo, it's clear that KC is not a reasonable person, by any stretch of the imagination.

Lol! No, she isn't! She is neither reasonable nor is she "normal". She is most likely suffering from some sort of personality disorder or mental defect. Her own mother threw the word "sociopath" around when warning her friends of what she was capable of. I have often wondered if there hadn't been something happen in the past when she would have been a minor so that the records would be closed, KWIM? I'm hearing LA ask her "Is this like last time?", GA saying "If this continues, things are going to come out." and little KC A herself saying "Don't worry! I haven't said anything!" It's one possibility.

 

[Turnadot]

Lol! No, she isn't! She is neither reasonable nor is she "normal". She is most likely suffering from some sort of personality disorder or mental defect. Her own mother threw the word "sociopath" around when warning her friends of what she was capable of. I have often wondered if there hadn't been something happen in the past when she would have been a minor so that the records would be closed, KWIM? I'm hearing LA ask her "Is this like last time?", GA saying "If this continues, things are going to come out." and little KC A herself saying "Don't worry! I haven't said anything!" It's one possibility.

I would really like to see KC's psych eval, if she had one. I seem to remember Judge Strickland wanting her to have one.

Like that last time??? OMG, I hope whatever it is comes out somehow. It may have nothing to do with this case, but I'm pretty darn curious!

 

[MADJGNLAW]

OK, maybe we need a thread for each statement Casey made regarding the so called nanny that stole her child. Here is another time she spoke of ZFG, except she changed her story a bit and this was after she was out on bond.

"Snip" http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sear...e=0&Query=zenaida gonzalez&target=adv_article. . .

"Snip" http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...-anthony-update-090409,0,7182648.story?page=2
Padilla, who helped bond Casey Anthony out of jail, recounted her conversion with him to investigators: "I went to Jay Blanchard Park and Zenaida and her sister Samantha were there with the kids. Zenaida held me down and said that this was payback for what I owed her. [Zenaida] handed me a list of things to say to the cops for the next 30 days."

Investigators have said Zenaida Gonzalez never existed.

The outspoken bounty hunter became angry with Casey Anthony's story and told her: "I didn't come 3,000 miles and leave my chihuahua behind to listen to this [expletive]."

Casey Anthony quickly responded by telling Padilla that if he was going to talk to her like a cop, he needed to "get out of my house." Padilla told investigators Casey Anthony never spoke to him again.

 

[chefmom]

I would really like to see KC's psych eval, if she had one. I seem to remember Judge Strickland wanting her to have one.

Like that last time??? OMG, I hope whatever it is comes out somehow. It may have nothing to do with this case, but I'm pretty darn curious!

HHSS DID have an eval done and IIRC, KC herself stated that she was normal! Lol! So, we can assume that that is a lie as much as anything else she has said since this fiasco started. :crazy:

 

[LolaMoon08]

I have a huge problem with Casey being described as this "little girl" who was intimidated by these big guys with guns. I say this because I have been pulled over quite a few times by LE (never did get a ticket:great and I was a lot smaller than Casey and a lot younger than Casey.

All my interaction with LE has been hilarious when I think about it. Partly because I got away without a ticket. Two of the times that I was pulled over, I was with my ex-boyfriend who had a love for what my mom calls "the funny cigarettes" and those two times LE searched the car and seperated us. All three times I was pulled over I was 17-18. I was, and still am, 5'0. I was, and not now, 103 pounds. Each time the big officers were in full uniform and carried guns. I was personally searched, by a female, the last time I was pulled over. I was never intimidated by them. I actually laughed with them. Answered their questions, honestly, and they let me go... and they never did find anything. Oh, yes, they did find something one of the times, a marijuana seed and the officer threatened me that he could take me to jail for that. I knew that wasn't true though and stayed closer to the nicer officer because that other officer tried really hard to find something in my car. It didn't help that we were on our way back from Miami taking the back way (not I-75) that drug traffickers take (I didn't know that then?). We had only went to visit his mom in Fort Lauderdale and go shopping in Miami (which we had all the clothes to prove it).

Maybe I am not a "reasonable" person to have not been intimidated by the officers? I couldn't argue with them when they wanted to search my car (one time) and my boyfriends car (the second time) because they had probable cause (my boyfriends funny cigarettes). I knew they wouldn't find anything (because my boyfriend was brilliant!:floorlaugh. The only officer that was really mean was the one who tried really hard to find something, but I just stayed close to the nicer officer. All the other times I was pulled over the officers were very nice and calm... much like they were when they talked to Casey originally. I was also honest. I didn't hide anything and I was nice to them. Or maybe the fact that I was 17-18, I just had no fear at all??

"Little Casey Anthony" my butt!!

 

[chefmom]

OK, maybe we need a thread for each statement Casey made regarding the so called nanny that stole her child. Here is another time she spoke of ZFG, except she changed her story a bit and this was after she was out on bond.

"Snip" http://www.orlandosentinel.com/sear...e=0&Query=zenaida gonzalez&target=adv_article. . .

"Snip" http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...-anthony-update-090409,0,7182648.story?page=2
Padilla, who helped bond Casey Anthony out of jail, recounted her conversion with him to investigators: "I went to Jay Blanchard Park and Zenaida and her sister Samantha were there with the kids. Zenaida held me down and said that this was payback for what I owed her. [Zenaida] handed me a list of things to say to the cops for the next 30 days."

Investigators have said Zenaida Gonzalez never existed.

The outspoken bounty hunter became angry with Casey Anthony's story and told her: "I didn't come 3,000 miles and leave my chihuahua behind to listen to this [expletive]."

Casey Anthony quickly responded by telling Padilla that if he was going to talk to her like a cop, he needed to "get out of my house." Padilla told investigators Casey Anthony never spoke to him again.

I just bumped an older thread that discusses all of the various scenarios that KC gave about ZFG in the one thread.

 

[Turnadot]

I think the threshold is, does a reasonable person in custody laugh and make small talk? I'd say no, and I consider myself reasonable enough. That's the reason for the threshold, imo, to give people who seem bat***** crazy a fair shake in Court. Basically: They aren't reasonable hence, they know not what they do.

ETA: I want to add that even if I had the guts to lead detectives down a hallway, when I turned and said, 'I'm lying to you. I don't work here.' And we all went into the Universal room to chat, as a reasonable person I'd have an oh crap I'm toast moment, and feel like I was in LE custody. A reasonable person, imo, would have burst into tears or at the very least been very nervous in that room. A reasonable person would not have smoothly admitted to lying then turn right around at the end of the interview and claim once again that everything she said was true.

I think LDB's closing argument was compelling though.

Can't wait for HHJP to rule on this.

I'm going to recant ^that post. I read she had her cellphone with her, and if I (a reasonable person) still had my cellphone, that means I could dial out any time, like to a taxi. Cellphones this day and age, especially by the young crowd, is a social network, and if I still had mine on me, I would not feel "restrained" by LE at all or in a custodial position, etc.

 

[chefmom]

I have a huge problem with Casey being described as this "little girl" who was intimidated by these big guys with guns. I say this because I have been pulled over quite a few times by LE (never did get a ticket:great and I was a lot smaller than Casey and a lot younger than Casey.

All my interaction with LE has been hilarious when I think about it. Partly because I got away without a ticket. Two of the times that I was pulled over, I was with my ex-boyfriend who had a love for what my mom calls "the funny cigarettes" and those two times LE searched the car and seperated us. All three times I was pulled over I was 17-18. I was, and still am, 5'0. I was, and not now, 103 pounds. Each time the big officers were in full uniform and carried guns. I was personally searched, by a female, the last time I was pulled over. I was never intimidated by them. I actually laughed with them. Answered their questions, honestly, and they let me go... and they never did find anything. Oh, yes, they did find something one of the times, a marijuana seed and the officer threatened me that he could take me to jail for that. I knew that wasn't true though and stayed closer to the nicer officer because that other officer tried really hard to find something in my car. It didn't help that we were on our way back from Miami taking the back way (not I-75) that drug traffickers take (I didn't know that then?). We had only went to visit his mom in Fort Lauderdale and go shopping in Miami (which we had all the clothes to prove it).

Maybe I am not a "reasonable" person to have not been intimidated by the officers? I couldn't argue with them when they wanted to search my car (one time) and my boyfriends car (the second time) because they had probable cause (my boyfriends funny cigarettes). I knew they wouldn't find anything (because my boyfriend was brilliant!:floorlaugh. The only officer that was really mean was the one who tried really hard to find something, but I just stayed close to the nicer officer. All the other times I was pulled over the officers were very nice and calm... much like they were when they talked to Casey originally. I was also honest. I didn't hide anything and I was nice to them. Or maybe the fact that I was 17-18, I just had no fear at all??

"Little Casey Anthony" my butt!!

I'm bothered by this attempt to make her appear small and weak and intimidated, too! I think it will backfire on them, though, because most innocent people are NOT intimidated by LE. Short of a person who has an issue with their nerves, I think the average person is merely having an "Oh, carp!" moment when they get pulled over or have to interact with LE. Now, someone with something to hide would be intimidated by LE. And as far as portraying her as a "child", they will regret doing that in front of a jury because the only child in this equation is dead, and the grown adult that he is calling a child is the accused murderer. jmo

 

[ziggy]

I just read Ross v. State. I can't help find there is a strong possibility that once KC was lead into the "employees only" conference room and the door was closed, it will be held that she was subject to a custodial interrogation and that it was an error for the police to question her without reading her Miranda.

Although Melich states that he questioned her because he just couldn't fathom why the mother of a missing child would lie...I think as a Websleuther or a member of LE we can have our suspicions as to why a mother of a missing child would lie - and because the nature of the questioning was confrontational regarding these lies, it will be added to that side of the scale that stands for inadmissible.

The other factor (and I hate to do this because I think she's a guilty, lying, sociopathic killer) is that she was at Universal (and now we know that she didn't know anybody there so she couldn't say, hey Juliette, can you give me a ride back to my house?) with no independent transportation out of there. To be fair, I don't think a person of her age with no real experience dealing with legal troubles would believe right then and there, after all that had taken place, that they had the right to say, "stop, I'm not saying anything else, take me home." And if KC had done that, since she way lying and obstructing , she probably would have been taken into custody officially and then most certainly called her parents and lawyered up.

So the investigators took a risk in the moment - they wanted to find Caylee - but they underestimated KC's ability to stick to her story no matter how ridiculous and faulty, and untrue it was.

Shoulda, coulda - had they Mirandized her she may have clammed up instantly - but they had no crystal ball.

Regardless, that questioning did not lead to Caylee or an admission, but just to the same lies that were told by KC numerous times to numerous people.

So if those statements are held inadmissible (and I think they will be to avoid an appeal, Lord and Judge Perry know this case has already cost the state a ----load) all is not lost. There is PLENTY of evidence to show KC had the motive, means and opportunity to kill Caylee, that she is a liar and that there really is not alternative explanation to offer as reasonable doubt.

I am very much looking forward to Judge Perry's ruling.

I really trust him; that he will weigh all of the circumstances and make the right call.

 

[MADJGNLAW]

I just read Ross v. State. I can't help find there is a strong possibility that once KC was lead into the "employees only" conference room and the door was closed, it will be held that she was subject to a custodial interrogation and that it was an error for the police to question her without reading her Miranda.

Although Melich states that he questioned her because he just couldn't fathom why the mother of a missing child would lie...I think as a Websleuther or a member of LE we can have our suspicions as to why a mother of a missing child would lie - and because the nature of the questioning was confrontational regarding these lies, it will be added to that side of the scale that stands for inadmissible.

The other factor (and I hate to do this because I think she's a guilty, lying, sociopathic killer) is that she was at Universal (and now we know that she didn't know anybody there so she couldn't say, hey Juliette, can you give me a ride back to my house?) with no independent transportation out of there. To be fair, I don't think a person of her age with no real experience dealing with legal troubles would believe right then and there, after all that had taken place, that they had the right to say, "stop, I'm not saying anything else, take me home." And if KC had done that, since she way lying and obstructing , she probably would have been taken into custody officially and then most certainly called her parents and lawyered up.

So the investigators took a risk in the moment - they wanted to find Caylee - but they underestimated KC's ability to stick to her story no matter how ridiculous and faulty, and untrue it was.

Shoulda, coulda - had they Mirandized her she may have clammed up instantly - but they had no crystal ball.

Regardless, that questioning did not lead to Caylee or an admission, but just to the same lies that were told by KC numerous times to numerous people.

So if those statements are held inadmissible (and I think they will be to avoid an appeal, Lord and Judge Perry know this case has already cost the state a ----load) all is not lost. There is PLENTY of evidence to show KC had the motive, means and opportunity to kill Caylee, that she is a liar and that there really is not alternative explanation to offer as reasonable doubt.

I am very much looking forward to Judge Perry's ruling.

I really trust him; that he will weigh all of the circumstances and make the right call.

:waitasec: I thought the door was left open? Uggg... Also, after hearing the audio from July 16th from LE it sounded as if they asked her if she wanted to go try and find her phone and other from Universal. I am so confused! :crazy: I wish we knew at what time that was and where they were recording that, I thought it was after she got arrested. :waitasec:

 

[Turnadot]

I just read Ross v. State. I can't help find there is a strong possibility that once KC was lead into the "employees only" conference room and the door was closed, it will be held that she was subject to a custodial interrogation and that it was an error for the police to question her without reading her Miranda.

Although Melich states that he questioned her because he just couldn't fathom why the mother of a missing child would lie...I think as a Websleuther or a member of LE we can have our suspicions as to why a mother of a missing child would lie - and because the nature of the questioning was confrontational regarding these lies, it will be added to that side of the scale that stands for inadmissible.

The other factor (and I hate to do this because I think she's a guilty, lying, sociopathic killer) is that she was at Universal (and now we know that she didn't know anybody there so she couldn't say, hey Juliette, can you give me a ride back to my house?) with no independent transportation out of there. To be fair, I don't think a person of her age with no real experience dealing with legal troubles would believe right then and there, after all that had taken place, that they had the right to say, "stop, I'm not saying anything else, take me home." And if KC had done that, since she way lying and obstructing , she probably would have been taken into custody officially and then most certainly called her parents and lawyered up.

So the investigators took a risk in the moment - they wanted to find Caylee - but they underestimated KC's ability to stick to her story no matter how ridiculous and faulty, and untrue it was.

Shoulda, coulda - had they Mirandized her she may have clammed up instantly - but they had no crystal ball.

Regardless, that questioning did not lead to Caylee or an admission, but just to the same lies that were told by KC numerous times to numerous people.

So if those statements are held inadmissible (and I think they will be to avoid an appeal, Lord and Judge Perry know this case has already cost the state a ----load) all is not lost. There is PLENTY of evidence to show KC had the motive, means and opportunity to kill Caylee, that she is a liar and that there really is not alternative explanation to offer as reasonable doubt.

I am very much looking forward to Judge Perry's ruling.

I really trust him; that he will weigh all of the circumstances and make the right call.

BBM

You make some good arguments here, and I too think the Universal Q&A will get tossed, but as for the bolded, if what I've read is true, KC had her cellphone with her, she could have dialed home and asked one of her parents to come and get her at any time. Also, GA is former LE, and it's very difficult for me to believe that a former LEO has never talked to his children about their rights. Ever.

As I stated some where else on the boards, I'm not even American but I've seen enough of your TV shows to know your Miranda Warning verbatim and that I can ask for a lawyer at any time while being questioned by LE.

I'm incredulous to the idea that KC was completely unaware that she could ask for a lawyer and keep her mouth closed.