If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

[concernedcitizen706]

The intruder must have rather worn a hazmat suite to the house for moving around the different rooms and levels of the house, climbing through the window twice, waiting, eating and writing all night long, and not leaving any forensic evidence, or any proof of him being there, after all those hours "living" in the house.
And to answer the question that might come from here - the DNA found on her is to this day still not in any way proven to be the DNA of an intruder.

But, if the intruder really wore the hazmat suite (or even just gloves) not leaving any fingerprints behind anyway, then why would an intruder suddenly feel the need to wipe down the flashlight, including the batteries?

Yeah it seems unlikely. I was reading again about the case just now, and it reminded me on some facts that I kind of forgotten. And it reminded me of how the parents, and even the son, change the story on basic details many times. Like what happened that night and that morning. And reading that again, it reminded me that the family had something to do with it. Nobody changes that many details that many times without being involved.

-- I was trying to read more about the train tracks. There was a train track set downstairs in basement. I don't know if maybe they set some tracks up in the living room too, over Christmas, but the pictures do not show that. I was thinking before that would exclude Patsy, because why would she roll some train tracks on the body. It sounded more juvenile.

So now I'm just thinking that they placed the body on top of the train tracks, wherever they were. Either new ones in the living room. Or maybe the old ones in the basement. And an adult must have been leaning on her to weigh her down, so that the train tracks sunk into her body. And she was probably naked, no pants and at least pulled her shirt up, before they redressed her, because that would make the most marks. Before she died too. That would make sense to me as something they did, as they're staging the scene with the paintbrush and cleaning her. They put her on top of that little table with the train tracks so that they could see better. Maybe that's when they used the flashlight too. So yeah that would be something the adults would do.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Yeah it seems unlikely. I was reading again about the case just now, and it reminded me on some facts that I kind of forgotten. And it reminded me of how the parents, and even the son, change the story on basic details many times. Like what happened that night and that morning. And reading that again, it reminded me that the family had something to do with it. Nobody changes that many details that many times without being involved.

-- I was trying to read more about the train tracks. There was a train track set downstairs in basement. I don't know if maybe they set some tracks up in the living room too, over Christmas, but the pictures do not show that. I was thinking before that would exclude Patsy, because why would she roll some train tracks on the body. It sounded more juvenile.

So now I'm just thinking that they placed the body on top of the train tracks, wherever they were. Either new ones in the living room. Or maybe the old ones in the basement. And an adult must have been leaning on her to weigh her down, so that the train tracks sunk into her body. And she was probably naked, no pants and at least pulled her shirt up, before they redressed her, because that would make the most marks. Before she died too. That would make sense to me as something they did, as they're staging the scene with the paintbrush and cleaning her. They put her on top of that little table with the train tracks so that they could see better. Maybe that's when they used the flashlight too. So yeah that would be something the adults would do.

On the subject of possible train tracks @concernedcitizen706 , IIRC the mark(s) on JBR were as though the pin-point prongs of a piece of train track end rails might have touched the skin. And not as though one might have been lain across a layout or assembled track. MOO

 

[concernedcitizen706]

I saw a graphic where they were a train track marks that went all the way up and down, vertically on the side of her abdomen and even down her leg a little bit. That was in addition to the couple puncture marks on her back. I'll have to search it again.

 

[MerlinFalcon]

Vile indeed. The whole pageant thing disgusted me at the time. That poor child. And then to push the idea of an intruder and SA…I remember thinking, “Well, what did you expect? You set her up for SA.”

But, their actions that day and afterward quickly made me believe they were involved even more directly. Horrible people.

JMO

I wonder if there would have been much coverage if the pageant stuff didn't happen. I, too, was disgusted by the pageant, seeing her in makeup and with her hair dyed. I found it disturbing.

 

[imstilla.grandma]

JonBenét Ramsey Cause of Death: New Evidence Reopens America's Coldest Case

Uncover the truth behind JonBenét Ramsey's cause of death. Explore how recent forensic breakthroughs shed new light on her final moments and bring investigators closer to solving this haunting cold case.

www.factualamerica.com

 

[concernedcitizen706]

So I was thinking about the extra large underwear Jbr was found with. Patsy said something like she might have gotten them in Bloomingdale's on a trip to New York for her older niece. Like a month or two before. So they were probably wrapped up in a present downstairs.

Those hold the key to the case. Because that's where the unidentified male DNA was found. As well as under jonbenet's fingernails. And also I believe on the waistband of her tights.

And I remember when I heard about that underwear a long time ago, that made me think that jonbenet's death was pre-planned by her mother and/or father.

Because I thought, who buys underwear for a Christmas present? Even for a niece. So the fact that she went and bought underwear beforehand, made me think she bought that underwear for that specific purpose. And perhaps they were clever enough to put some unidentified male DNA in there.

Of course the rest of the packet of that underwear was missing after the scene of the crime.

Why would Patsy want to kill her daughter? Maybe because she knew the daughter was being sexually abused and Patsy thought she might die of cancer, and she thought that would be the best way to protect her. Maybe the daughter was about to tell on them. I'm not sure. So maybe she thought she would give her daughter one more Christmas.

 

[lonetraveler]

So I was thinking about the extra large underwear Jbr was found with. Patsy said something like she might have gotten them in Bloomingdale's on a trip to New York for her older niece. Like a month or two before. So they were probably wrapped up in a present downstairs.

Those hold the key to the case. Because that's where the unidentified male DNA was found. As well as under jonbenet's fingernails. And also I believe on the waistband of her tights.

And I remember when I heard about that underwear a long time ago, that made me think that jonbenet's death was pre-planned by her mother and/or father.

Because I thought, who buys underwear for a Christmas present? Even for a niece. So the fact that she went and bought underwear beforehand, made me think she bought that underwear for that specific purpose. And perhaps they were clever enough to put some unidentified male DNA in there.

Of course the rest of the packet of that underwear was missing after the scene of the crime.

Why would Patsy want to kill her daughter? Maybe because she knew the daughter was being sexually abused and Patsy thought she might die of cancer, and she thought that would be the best way to protect her. Maybe the daughter was about to tell on them. I'm not sure. So maybe she thought she would give her daughter one more Christmas.

Way, way back to the beginning, there was discussion that Patsy made JB wear them as punishment when she wet herself. JMO but I really don't think Patsy bought the underwear for a present to someone.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

Way, way back to the beginning, there was discussion that Patsy made JB wear them as punishment when she wet herself. JMO but I really don't think Patsy bought the underwear for a present to someone.

Well if she didn't buy them for a present, that leaves one option. That she bought them for this specific occasion, for the murder. That's what made me think this was pre-planned. Because they wouldn't fit anybody else. The only other person she could have bought them for was maybe Burke. Maybe he was trans. I'm trying to think of some other reasons. Maybe John wanted Patsy to buy them for her niece. Because he wanted to make the move on her niece. Anyway it's not impossible Patsy bought them for her niece, but it's kind of weird.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

So I was rereading about the case again, and a lot of things do lead to Burke. But the question remains, if Burke hit his sister over the head, would the parents invent this whole fantasy scenario to cover for him? If it's just the kid hitting his sister, they could have told everybody it was an accident. Juvenile records are closed up. No one really would have heard about it. And when he was 18, the records would be expunged. It would not affect his adult life. If people they knew did hear about it somehow, they could just move. But doing what they did, turned it into a long-running national story. And I'm sure they were smart enough to figure that out. So it wouldn't make sense to do what they did to cover for Burke.

 

[Tower]

So I was rereading about the case again, and a lot of things do lead to Burke. But the question remains, if Burke hit his sister over the head, would the parents invent this whole fantasy scenario to cover for him? If it's just the kid hitting his sister, they could have told everybody it was an accident. Juvenile records are closed up. No one really would have heard about it. And when he was 18, the records would be expunged. It would not affect his adult life. If people they knew did hear about it somehow, they could just move. But doing what they did, turned it into a long-running national story. And I'm sure they were smart enough to figure that out. So it wouldn't make sense to do what they did to cover for Burke.

I’ve always believed the same. Burke would not be taken away or punished in any way if he were responsible. He was 9 and legally innocent, no matter what. Why would they desecrate a child’s body to cover for Burke?

If they were trying to cover up SA, it was the most insane coincidence that Burke also hit her in the head during the possibly 2 weeks when SA was escalating.

By far the most realistic explanation is one adult did all of it, but I would buy that a second adult assisted with a coverup. Adults only.

The Burke theory was hypothesized many years after the murder and it took off, but I have never thought it explained the evidence. There was never a threat of losing Burke.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I’ve always believed the same. Burke would not be taken away or punished in any way if he were responsible. He was 9 and legally innocent, no matter what. Why would they desecrate a child’s body to cover for Burke?

If they were trying to cover up SA, it was the most insane coincidence that Burke also hit her in the head during the possibly 2 weeks when SA was escalating.

By far the most realistic explanation is one adult did all of it, but I would buy that a second adult assisted with a coverup. Adults only.

The Burke theory was hypothesized many years after the murder and it took off, but I have never thought it explained the evidence. There was never a threat of losing Burke.

Whether or not you believe JB was SAd or not, it cant be discounted as to a reason for a cover up if it was done by either male in the home. If BR killed her but there were signs of abuse, look how difficult it is to this day to believe a 10 year old could be responsible. I believe JR would have blamed no matter what. Either rightly or wrongly.
Off topic, but I believe if BR was responsible, JR has reason to keep the intruder theory going. If it were he and PR, he would quietly disappear. This case will never loose momentum and one day imo someone will talk or write a book posthumously. If I wasn't watching over my flock, I'd feel responsible for the rest of my life.

 

[Tower]

Whether or not you believe JB was SAd or not, it cant be discounted as to a reason for a cover up if it was done by either male in the home. If BR killed her but there were signs of abuse, look how difficult it is to this day to believe a 10 year old could be responsible. I believe JR would have blamed no matter what. Either rightly or wrongly.
Off topic, but I believe if BR was responsible, JR has reason to keep the intruder theory going. If it were he and PR, he would quietly disappear. This case will never loose momentum and one day imo someone will talk or write a book posthumously. If I wasn't watching over my flock, I'd feel responsible for the rest of my life.

I think the opposite. Not that the SA needed to be covered up after an accident. But the chance of an accident happening to a child who was SAed when SA appeared to be escalating in that exact timeframe is a crazy and unlikely coincidence. The SA is directly related to her death and an adult is responsible for the SA. The garotte was not planned or implemented by a child. Therefore, Burke is uninvolved. My opinion.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

I’ve always believed the same. Burke would not be taken away or punished in any way if he were responsible. He was 9 and legally innocent, no matter what. Why would they desecrate a child’s body to cover for Burke?

If they were trying to cover up SA, it was the most insane coincidence that Burke also hit her in the head during the possibly 2 weeks when SA was escalating.

By far the most realistic explanation is one adult did all of it, but I would buy that a second adult assisted with a coverup. Adults only.

The Burke theory was hypothesized many years after the murder and it took off, but I have never thought it explained the evidence. There was never a threat of losing Burke.

Don’t disagree with much of this @Tower ….. but in many respects, IMO it is difficult to know that after something has occurred.

I don’t think anyone could presume to know what any another might do if there was a need to cover for the acts of another. Whether that included ‘covering’ for the acts of a child, or, one or more adults. And the haste of needing to do something quickly might override any logic one might try to later infer or imply. IMO all too often within these threads, it seems apparent that logic does not seem the largest factor when a crime is involved.

Also an adult might not have known what would likely occur to a 9 year old child if they were accused of anything. Unless perhaps, there was discussion with an attorney that could advise and clarify. IANAL. MOO

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Don’t disagree with much of this @Tower ….. but in many respects, IMO it is difficult to know that after something has occurred.

I don’t think anyone could presume to know what any another might do if there was a need to cover for the acts of another. Whether that included ‘covering’ for the acts of a child, or, one or more adults. And the haste of needing to do something quickly might override any logic one might try to later infer or imply. IMO all too often within these threads, it seems apparent that logic does not seem the largest factor when a crime is involved.

Also an adult might not have known what would likely occur to a 9 year old child if they were accused of anything. Unless perhaps, there was discussion with an attorney that could advise and clarify. IANAL.

I think the opposite. Not that the SA needed to be covered up after an accident. But the chance of an accident happening to a child who was SAed when SA appeared to be escalating in that exact timeframe is a crazy and unlikely coincidence. The SA is directly related to her death and an adult is responsible for the SA. The garotte was not planned or implemented by a child. Therefore, Burke is uninvolved. My opinion.

SA can be chronic and go on for years. I'm not following as to why escalation of negative behaviors couldn't coincide within any or all family members in a dysfunctional setting. We don't know which scenerio fits but dysfunction often breeds dysfunction. I knew two sisters growing up. One had extreme jealousy towards the other because she always felt her sister was the favorite. Well, it goes without saying the favorite was being molested by both the father and brother. The sister who was jealous was plagued by horrible guilt for all the bad feelings she had towards the sister.
IMO, when there is one ( or 2)very dysfunctional person(s) in a family, everyone is affected negatively and may act out negatively.
I think both your scenerio and mine have equal probability.

 

[887sMtreme]

I know that the R’s used plastic bags instead of suitcases on that particular plane to keep the weight down. There was no cargo hold, there was only space behind the seats. so a suitcase probably would’ve been a little suspicious to the pilot. But I can tell you, having flown on a private plane out of DIA in 2012, I did not have to go through security nor was my bag X-rayed or checked by anyone. I would assume that in 1996 and out of a smaller regional airport there would not have been any security protocols that would have prevented them from hiding JBR’s body in a suitcase. Just the weight limitations of the plane itself and that being not their usual, which might have been noticed by the pilot.

The pilot, who was familiar with the family, would also have noticed JBR wasn’t traveling with the family. Whatever story they’d have made up to cover for that would be quickly found to be a damning lie once it was found that she was dead. Not to mention he’d have noticed the odor of decomposition, so that finding would probably have landed the Ramseys in the Charlevoix clink immediately upon landing there.

Note: I added the last phrase before noticing @ispy… had “liked” the original post. That wasn’t kosher. Sorry.

 

[CloudedTruth]

The pilot, who was familiar with the family, would also have noticed JBR wasn’t traveling with the family. Whatever story they’d have made up to cover for that would be quickly found to be a damning lie once it was found that she was dead. Not to mention he’d have noticed the odor of decomposition, so that finding would probably have landed the Ramseys in the Charlevoix clink immediately upon landing there.

Note: I added the last phrase before noticing @ispy… had “liked” the original post. That wasn’t kosher. Sorry.

100%.

 

[Ponytale]

But the chance of an accident happening to a child who was SAed when SA appeared to be escalating in that exact timeframe is a crazy and unlikely coincidence. The SA is directly related to her death and an adult is responsible for the SA.

But it could be just a coincidence. If the accident had not happen, the SA would have continued to escalate. There are so many kids who are SA'd for years and it never comes out unless they tell, and many don't. If the SA had started just recently (10 days or even a month prior) it was probably just the beginning. If she'd lived, she could have been SA'd for years to come.
We could draw that conclusion to any child who is SA'd and then murdered - it does not necessarily have to mean that the two are in any way connected. It only means that a sexually assaulted/molested child has been killed whether by accident or by intent. I do not see a logical direct relation between the two. IMO

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

The pilot, who was familiar with the family, would also have noticed JBR wasn’t traveling with the family. Whatever story they’d have made up to cover for that would be quickly found to be a damning lie once it was found that she was dead. Not to mention he’d have noticed the odor of decomposition, so that finding would probably have landed the Ramseys in the Charlevoix clink immediately upon landing there.

Note: I added the last phrase before noticing @ispy… had “liked” the original post. That wasn’t kosher. Sorry.

Great point about odor and decomposition. I hadn't thought about the pilot or them getting caught with her !

 

[Tower]

But it could be just a coincidence. If the accident had not happen, the SA would have continued to escalate. There are so many kids who are SA'd for years and it never comes out unless they tell, and many don't. If the SA had started just recently (10 days or even a month prior) it was probably just the beginning. If she'd lived, she could have been SA'd for years to come.
We could draw that conclusion to any child who is SA'd and then murdered - it does not necessarily have to mean that the two are in any way connected. It only means that a sexually assaulted/molested child has been killed whether by accident or by intent. I do not see a logical direct relation between the two. IMO

I think the statistical odds of the two being unrelated are exceedingly low. We disagree of course. The idea that a child is violently killed by accident and it is totally unrelated to the violent SA that is also simultaneously occurring in her life is unlikely. Approaching zero. Horses not zebras.

 

[sunspun]

One thing I can never understand about the RDI theories is why, if someone in the family killed her intentionally or accidentally, why all this crazy messy confused and confusing coverup/staging/etc. had to be done right then? If it happened in the middle of the night by their hand, NO ONE else knew a thing about it - YET - and no one else would know a thing about it until they decided to start telling everyone about it, which they did, at basically sunrise that very same morning that it happened. But why did it all have to happen so fast and furiously, as I see it? I realize there's the issue of decomposition smell, etc. to consider, but there are ways to deal with that.

They would have known by the time she was dead that they wouldn't be taking their scheduled trip anymore as planned, so if they were canceling the trip anyway, seems like they would have taken a little more time to figure out what to do and not go with this impromptu bizarre, reckless, carelessly-thought-out coverup scheme that no one in their right mind would ever have purposely chosen to do if they had any other options.

Which they did. And that's my point. They could have covered this up in better ways than how people think they did it. What they supposedly did to cover it up was like things that they would do because they had no choice, because they had to get it all done by daylight. Like they were forced to go with this very risky and imo dumb fake kidnapping scenario, complete with the ludicrous ransom note, only because that was their only option if it had to be done by sunrise that morning. But they would have been under no such time constraint. They would've had to do something soon, but not necessarily by sunrise.

If they'd cancelled the plane trip by phone, they would have been free to come up with a better plan that day. No one in the world would know yet that there was anything wrong. No one at all would be dropping by or even calling, since everyone knew they'd be gone out of town. They could have made up some lie as an excuse to cancel the trip and then taken time to do what they needed to do. And I would bet it wouldn't have included writing the ludicrous ransom note if they had. They could even have LEFT THE HOUSE, pretending to do errands or whatever, and in the process, removed her body to some clandestine location where she may never have been found. They could have said she'd been playing outside and the next thing they knew, she was gone. They could have removed and dumped her body somewhere while they were pretending to search for her. Maybe before they had even called police. If my little girl suddenly seemed to have disappeared from our house or yard, I'd immediately start looking everywhere for her and if she wasn't found, only then would I call police. I wouldn't call police first, before even looking for her.

So the way they supposedly did it, according to RDI, had them calling police before they even did a search for her outside around the house, the neighborhood, or even inside their own house -- all because of the stupid ransom note. Since there was that ransom note that they supposedly found FIRST thing that morning, everything after that had to be done differently. They HAD to call police and they didn't even really search for her anywhere at first because duh, the ransom note said she wasn't there! The only reason it went the way it did was all because of that ransom note. If it hadn't been for that note, they would have immediately begun an intensive search everywhere for her around the house at least for sure.

And... sadly, they would have no doubt found her. Down there in the wine cellar basement room where someone hid her, leaving the stupid ransom note behind, hoping to delay them finding her by at least a little while, which is exactly what it did. Probably gave them even a longer delay than that person could ever have hoped for, in fact.

Certainly enough time to ensure that that person was well away from their house by then. Safe and at no risk of being caught for the crimes he committed deep down in the Ramsey basement in the middle of the night while everyone else slept. Or, if he was as crazy and reckless and delusional as that ransom note makes it sound like he was, maybe he didn't actually go too far from the house. I could see him hiding somewhere nearby, close enough to see all the chaos going on at the house, reveling in the knowledge that HE was the cause of all this activity and certain despair and anguish. Knowing what they would soon find out, what he had left for them to find.

That's what I find more believable than that they killed her, in whatever way, and thought the best path forward from this unimaginable tragedy was to have Patsy sit down and write a fanciful, movie-script style fake ransom note in the kitchen, while John was busy garroting and object-raping his 6 year old daughter in the basement. And then when all their ridiculous staging was set, to call police and report her missing and kidnapped and set the ball rolling for all the events to come from that moment on throughout the rest of their lives. Their ruined lives.