If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

[CloudedTruth]

So my point was there was one bike track on the property, in the new snow or frost sometime that prior evening or early morning. I used the phrase to and from, but perhaps I should have said, to OR from. You admitted that there were three bikes and that Burke got a bike. Only two bikes were in the Christmas pictures btw. So we have one bike track in the snow. There should be two bike tracks. One going away and one coming back. If we only have one bike track there, that meant the bike only went in one direction. If it came towards the property, we should have another bike at the house. Which apparently they did not. So since there is no other bike at the house, that meant one of the bikes left the house and did not come back that morning, before police got there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they found Patsy's and jonbenet's bike at the house. That means Burke's bike was missing. If you can link me some source that states that definitely states that Burke's new bike, not his old bike, was left in the garage that morning, I'll be glad to look at it

As to the plane, I thought you said they were seven seats including the pilot before. Now you're saying there's eight seats including the pilot. Do you really know how many seats there were in that plane? What's your source of information? Are you sure they didn't have some kind of extra seat where a child could sit? And are we sure the pilot was scheduled to take that short hop from Minneapolis to the other part of Minnesota? Perhaps John felt he could pilot that short flight during the day. And if not, what is your link that shows that the pilot was going with them to the other location.

Here is my original post regarding the plane:

There is no evidence to suggest that Doug Stine spent the night or was there that night. Why would he be? He was not at the White's party, he was at home with his parents. They had to get up very early in the morning to leave. The plane they were flying in accommodates a maximum of 7 passengers if there is no co-pilot. Flying that morning were Mike the pilot, John, Patsy, Burke & JonBenet, to be joined in Minneapolis for the rest of the flight by John Andrew, Melinda and her boyfriend Stuart. There was no room for Doug. Add to that, it was a very short trip of only two days. They then had to return to Colorado to take a commercial flight to Florida for the cruise leaving on 12/29.

7 passengers plus the pilot makes a total of 8. I have never changed the number of seats on the plane. I also said in another post that the first part of the flight was from Boulder to Minneapolis to pick up the three additional passengers, and they were then flying from Minneapolis to Charlevoix, Michigan. Where do you get they were flying to another part of Minnesota?

It's becoming rather clear that you are not that familiar with the details of this case. Please actually read the posts before you comment making incorrect assumptions and accusations about what is being stated. If you would like to exercise your own time to actually look into the facts being discussed you will find the information that I have given is in fact correct. My sources are the three books by James Kolar, Steve Thomas, PMPT and having spent countless hours searching police reports and what is available online regarding this case. I also make the effort to try and confirm and separate fact from fiction and rumor.

There is a quote option when you post. It might behoove you to utilize that when you post what you think you read to ensure accuracy. The information about the plane's configuration, the passengers and the flight plan is well documented in many places. You want sources and links? Please do your own research. You might learn something valuable so that you can contribute here in a knowlegdable and respectful manner.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

You know we're usually supposed to link our facts here. You asked me for a link about something above, and said it was not valid unless I linked it, so I thought it would be okay to ask you for a link on your assertions here as well. So you want me to provide links, but you don't want to provide me links in return, you want me to look up my own information. Okay. And sorry I got Michigan and Minnesota confused. That's a minor detail, in my opinion.

You know the grand jury information has not been made public, so we really don't know all the facts and nor can we know all the facts in this case. So we are left with a lot of speculation, based on the facts that were released, which is not complete. Theories are usually what amateur mystery crime solving entails. However I provided a good bit of reasoning to support my ideas. I'll go over it again. It's the fact that there seems to be some discrepancy with Burke's bike. Who did the bike tire track belong to? Why was there only one? We know that Doug Stine is a good friend of Burke. That he has been over to the house a lot. And we know that the Ramseys made their last stop at the Stine's house, late night before. We know that the Ramseys accounts became more unclear at that point. We know that the son Doug Stine has been asked to testify at the grand jury. We the public does not know what he said there. We know police never mentioned anything about Burke's bike being stolen. Or some other mystery bike showing up at the house that night, to explain that bike track.

So we have a lot of information to work with there. This is an amateur crime solving site. Where we present our theories based on the facts. And that's what I'm doing here. I can speculate reasonably as much as I want to here. If you have some other knowledge to present, that Doug Stine was definitely not at the Ramsey's house that night, feel free to present it to me.

 

[Chypre]

So my point was there was one bike track on the property, in the new snow or frost sometime that prior evening or early morning. I used the phrase to and from, but perhaps I should have said, to OR from. You admitted that there were three bikes and that Burke got a bike. Only two bikes were in the Christmas pictures btw. So we have one bike track in the snow. There should be two bike tracks. One going away and one coming back. If we only have one bike track there, that meant the bike only went in one direction. If it came towards the property, we should have another bike at the house. Which apparently they did not. So since there is no other bike at the house, that meant one of the bikes left the house and did not come back that morning, before police got there. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they found Patsy's and jonbenet's bike at the house. That means Burke's bike was missing. If you can link me some source that states that definitely states that Burke's new bike, not his old bike, was left in the garage that morning, I'll be glad to look at it

As to the plane, I thought you said they were seven seats including the pilot before. Now you're saying there's eight seats including the pilot. Do you really know how many seats there were in that plane? What's your source of information? Are you sure they didn't have some kind of extra seat where a child could sit? And are we sure the pilot was scheduled to take that short hop from Minneapolis to the other part of Minnesota? Perhaps John felt he could pilot that short flight during the day. And if not, what is your link that shows that the pilot was going with them to the other location.

I've never seen the photo the bike trike was shown from. Depending on whether it stops or starts near uncovered ground, is it possible the biker used the same groove bothe ways? I know it's goofy but it can be just as satisfying as trying to use the same footprints both ways.

 

[Ponytale]

I've never seen the photo the bike trike was shown from. Depending on whether it stops or starts near uncovered ground, is it possible the biker used the same groove bothe ways? I know it's goofy but it can be just as satisfying as trying to use the same footprints both ways.

There is a photo on this link (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/r...e/news-story/2d82e891d8d9b2031efd963cf92ef0ae) of the two police officers that are standing in front of the house. There appears to be what could be bike tracks seen to the right of the officers. Straight lines that go from the right corner sidewalk to the direction of the house. Parts of them seem to be melted away already, but it is possible to use ones imagination.
I do not know it they are bike track marks, but they are the only ones that I found. Or if they are anything at all. But, I can see at least 4 lines going across the shadow of the police tape...

 

[Bean&Cheese]

Please tell me to “go kick rocks” because I am not fully yet up to date on all of the details. But, I’m listening to the Crime Junkies podcast on this and I am wondering if Mr. Fleet and/or Mr. Stine were ever fully investigated into?

 

[Chypre]

There is a photo on this link (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/r...e/news-story/2d82e891d8d9b2031efd963cf92ef0ae) of the two police officers that are standing in front of the house. There appears to be what could be bike tracks seen to the right of the officers. Straight lines that go from the right corner sidewalk to the direction of the house. Parts of them seem to be melted away already, but it is possible to use ones imagination.
I do not know it they are bike track marks, but they are the only ones that I found. Or if they are anything at all. But, I can see at least 4 lines going across the shadow of the police tape...

Thank you. I'm not sure if I really see anything definitive myself.

 

[Slebby]

Please tell me to “go kick rocks” because I am not fully yet up to date on all of the details. But, I’m listening to the Crime Junkies podcast on this and I am wondering if Mr. Fleet and/or Mr. Stine were ever fully investigated into?

I also listened to the Crime Junkie épisode on JBR, and it was one of the more disappointing episodes they’ve done, imo.
Ashley Flowers, CJ host, had an opportunity to interview JR. Somehow she seems to have been charmed by him, and the episode seemed pretty pro JR. With what I have learned over the years, I was surprised she hadn’t truly looked at all sides of the case all that thoroughly. I am sure if she looked at the RN and interviewed someone like Cina Wong, she’d have a whole different perspective.
For context, she also seemed to give Scott Peterson the benefit of some doubt as well, and that’s a case I’m also extremely familiar with.
Our favourite podcasters don’t always get it right.
IMHO

 

[Slebby]

There is a photo on this link (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/r...e/news-story/2d82e891d8d9b2031efd963cf92ef0ae) of the two police officers that are standing in front of the house. There appears to be what could be bike tracks seen to the right of the officers. Straight lines that go from the right corner sidewalk to the direction of the house. Parts of them seem to be melted away already, but it is possible to use ones imagination.
I do not know it they are bike track marks, but they are the only ones that I found. Or if they are anything at all. But, I can see at least 4 lines going across the shadow of the police tape...

I have lived my life in a very snowy part of the world, and I have a lot of insight into the properties of snow. I personally find the matter of bike tire marks in snow to be a total nothingburger with respect to this crime. Snow can be hard as a rock and 10 bikes could ride over it and leave no tracks, or could be very soft and a track shows easily. That same track can later harden and be there for the next month.
If that’s a tire track we see in that photo of the snow on the grass, so what? If the only reason it’s under discussion is wrt speculation about DS as sleepover guest and/or flying with the Rs the next day, I’ve combed what I can and there is nothing in any source I’ve checked to indicate any mention of a DS sleepover, nor of any plan to bring him along on that trip.
And it would make no sense anyway. The Rs were out to dinner and not home until later in the evening. They were catching a very early morning flight, with an already full plane, so DS couldn’t have been invited on that trip. No parent would agree to a sleepover under those circumstances. The purpose of a sleepover is fun, not to just go straight to bed and then get up quite early. That would defeat the purpose of a sleepover.
Please let me know if I am missing something.
My humble opinion.

Edit to add: @CloudofTruth, I realized after posting I just reiterated something you said this morning re no sleepover…

 

[CloudedTruth]

I have lived my life in a very snowy part of the world, and I have a lot of insight into the properties of snow. I personally find the matter of bike tire marks in snow to be a total nothingburger with respect to this crime. Snow can be hard as a rock and 10 bikes could ride over it and leave no tracks, or could be very soft and a track shows easily. That same track can later harden and be there for the next month.
If that’s a tire track we see in that photo of the snow on the grass, so what? If the only reason it’s under discussion is wrt speculation about DS as sleepover guest and/or flying with the Rs the next day, I’ve combed what I can and there is nothing in any source I’ve checked to indicate any mention of a DS sleepover, nor of any plan to bring him along on that trip.
And it would make no sense anyway. The Rs were out to dinner and not home until later in the evening. They were catching a very early morning flight, with an already full plane, so DS couldn’t have been invited on that trip. No parent would agree to a sleepover under those circumstances. The purpose of a sleepover is fun, not to just go straight to bed and then get up quite early. That would defeat the purpose of a sleepover.
Please let me know if I am missing something.
My humble opinion.

Edit to add: @CloudofTruth, I realized after posting I just reiterated something you said this morning re no sleepover…

Exactly! Thank you.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

I also listened to the Crime Junkie épisode on JBR, and it was one of the more disappointing episodes they’ve done, imo.
Ashley Flowers, CJ host, had an opportunity to interview JR. Somehow she seems to have been charmed by him, and the episode seemed pretty pro JR. With what I have learned over the years, I was surprised she hadn’t truly looked at all sides of the case all that thoroughly. I am sure if she looked at the RN and interviewed someone like Cina Wong, she’d have a whole different perspective.
For context, she also seemed to give Scott Peterson the benefit of some doubt as well, and that’s a case I’m also extremely familiar with.
Our favourite podcasters don’t always get it right.
IMHO

I think she went in as hard as she could with JR. She approaches the hard questions and then let's him evade but if you know the case, she's calling him out but using kid gloves. Otherwise, he won't play. Have you seen anyone hardball him in the last 20 years? He draws viewers, he calls the shots or no interview.

 

[Ponytale]

I have lived my life in a very snowy part of the world, and I have a lot of insight into the properties of snow. I personally find the matter of bike tire marks in snow to be a total nothingburger with respect to this crime. Snow can be hard as a rock and 10 bikes could ride over it and leave no tracks, or could be very soft and a track shows easily. That same track can later harden and be there for the next month.
If that’s a tire track we see in that photo of the snow on the grass, so what? If the only reason it’s under discussion is wrt speculation about DS as sleepover guest and/or flying with the Rs the next day, I’ve combed what I can and there is nothing in any source I’ve checked to indicate any mention of a DS sleepover, nor of any plan to bring him along on that trip.
And it would make no sense anyway. The Rs were out to dinner and not home until later in the evening. They were catching a very early morning flight, with an already full plane, so DS couldn’t have been invited on that trip. No parent would agree to a sleepover under those circumstances. The purpose of a sleepover is fun, not to just go straight to bed and then get up quite early. That would defeat the purpose of a sleepover.
Please let me know if I am missing something.
My humble opinion.

Edit to add: @CloudofTruth, I realized after posting I just reiterated something you said this morning re no sleepover…

Yes, I totally agree with you. I just posted this photo because there was a discussion about this topic and out of interest I went out and did a little search on my own. It is the only thing I found that could be tracks. But also could not be.

I too live in a country where we have months of snow. But here we usually do not ride bikes when there is snow on the ground.
I too find that this is insignificant, because we know from the statements of the parents and the neighbors that both kids rode their bikes. I find that it is normal if there were bike tracks across the lawn if the snow was fresh. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

I also listened to the Crime Junkie épisode on JBR, and it was one of the more disappointing episodes they’ve done, imo.
Ashley Flowers, CJ host, had an opportunity to interview JR. Somehow she seems to have been charmed by him, and the episode seemed pretty pro JR. With what I have learned over the years, I was surprised she hadn’t truly looked at all sides of the case all that thoroughly. I am sure if she looked at the RN and interviewed someone like Cina Wong, she’d have a whole different perspective.
For context, she also seemed to give Scott Peterson the benefit of some doubt as well, and that’s a case I’m also extremely familiar with.
Our favourite podcasters don’t always get it right.
IMHO

Oh yeah, Scott Peterson is one guilty MFer lol. Ok, so, if. I’m understanding this thread correctly… it is felt that BR and his friend killed her and JR and PR covered it up? The paint brush handle is interesting… like why not use your own pecker unless… you don’t have one? (PR) she seemed a little unhinged.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

Oh yeah, Scott Peterson is one guilty MFer lol. Ok, so, if. I’m understanding this thread correctly… it is felt that BR and his friend killed her and JR and PR covered it up? The paint brush handle is interesting… like why not use your own pecker unless… you don’t have one? (PR) she seemed a little unhinged.

Also, the fecal incontinence is ALL of the children is highly suspicious for child abuse no doubt because the only other likely cause of econeuresis is constipation and I find it hard to believe that ALL children would have severe enough undocumented constipation to poop at night.

 

[Chypre]

Also, the fecal incontinence is ALL of the children is highly suspicious for child abuse no doubt because the only other likely cause of econeuresis is constipation and I find it hard to believe that ALL children would have severe enough undocumented constipation to poop at night.

In some ways it's the opposite since they would both have nearly the same diet.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

John Ramey:These tracks in the snow here, might have been bicycle tracks. LOU SMIT: That's in photograph 101? JOHN RAMSEY: Right. It wasn't unusual for him to ride through the yard. LOU SMIT: Did you say he had a bicycle that Christmas? JOHN RAMSEY: I know we got -- I got a bicycle. I think that's what it was. I gave myself a bicycle. LOU SMIT: That Christmas? JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, Patsy got a bicycle, I got a bicycle, JonBenet got a bicycle. Burke already had one, I am pretty sure. I don't know what it is, I guess.

s-evidence-crime-photos.htm

JonBenet Ramsey Case Transcripts

www.acandyrose.com

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

I wonder if it is possible that JBR wasn’t really fully toilet trained at all and maybe that also could explain the bed wetting and fecal incontinence?

In Thomas’ book the housekeeper Hoffman mentions that after PR started receiving cancer treatment in 1993 both JBR and BR regressed in terms of their habits when it came to cleaning up after themselves, practicing proper hygiene and using the bathroom. Also, IIRC, she stated PR had started potty training JBR when she was around 3 years old. If true, that would likely mean JBR started to receive toilet training in the same year as her mother’s diagnosis and treatment started. Perhaps, understandably, JBR’s potty training was disrupted as PR battled her cancer? Perhaps that and/or any stress or emotional turmoil caused by witnessing her beloved mother suffer is what led to JBR eventually return to wearing pampers, being unable to wipe after herself or soiling her bed and/or clothes?

According to Child Mind Institute, encopresis could be caused by constipation, abdominal disorders, emotional or mental distress or trauma, lack of toilet training and sexual abuse. In the case that one’s childen’s experience this, parents and/or should always refer to their doctor and in the case that JBR’s condition was caused by lack of training or education parents can intervene multiple ways by encouraging behavior changes. For example, they can make sure to regularly follow a schedule for when a child will go to the bathroom throughout the day, making sure they get the chance before they go to bed, keeping them hydrated and demonstrating proper washing and wiping habits.

Of course I am not trying to point the fingers or accuse anyone for being negligent or such. It is possible, for example, that even after achieving remission in 1994, that PR was still healing and coming to terms with what she experienced as she received cancer treatment and underwent surgery due to complications caused by a previous procedure. Perhaps PR just needed time to adjust but still always intended to teach and train JBR and her brother on better bathroom and hygiene habits. Perhaps she just still felt overwhelmed and unfortunately could depend on JR to get involved or help with that responsibility at all since it appears he thought taking care of the children was PR’a job.

Quick Guide to Encopresis - Child Mind Institute

Get free tips on helping children with encopresis. Encopresis (or soiling) is a disorder in which a child over the age of four repeatedly poops in places other than the toilet, like their clothes or the floor.

childmind.org

JonBenet Ramsey: Missing Innocence

The Christmas-night murder of six-year-old beauty-pageant winner JonBenet Ramsey in Boulder, Colorado, shocked the country and turned her millionaire parents, John and Patsy, into suspects.

www.vanityfair.com

 

[FMB]

I wonder if it is possible that JBR wasn’t really fully toilet trained at all and maybe that also could explain the bed wetting and fecal incontinence?

In Thomas’ book the housekeeper Hoffman mentions that after PR started receiving cancer treatment in 1993 both JBR and BR regressed in terms of their habits when it came to cleaning up after themselves, practicing proper hygiene and using the bathroom. Also, IIRC, she stated PR had started potty training JBR when she was around 3 years old. If true, that would likely mean JBR started to receive toilet training in the same year as her mother’s diagnosis and treatment started. Perhaps, understandably, JBR’s potty training was disrupted as PR battled her cancer? Perhaps that and/or any stress or emotional turmoil caused by witnessing her beloved mother suffer is what led to JBR eventually return to wearing pampers, being unable to wipe after herself or soiling her bed and/or clothes?

According to Child Mind Institute, encopresis could be caused by constipation, abdominal disorders, emotional or mental distress or trauma, lack of toilet training and sexual abuse. In the case that one’s childen’s experience this, parents and/or should always refer to their doctor and in the case that JBR’s condition was caused by lack of training or education parents can intervene multiple ways by encouraging behavior changes. For example, they can make sure to regularly follow a schedule for when a child will go to the bathroom throughout the day, making sure they get the chance before they go to bed, keeping them hydrated and demonstrating proper washing and wiping habits.

Of course I am not trying to point the fingers or accuse anyone for being negligent or such. It is possible, for example, that even after achieving remission in 1994, that PR was still healing and coming to terms with what she experienced as she received cancer treatment and underwent surgery due to complications caused by a previous procedure. Perhaps PR just needed time to adjust but still always intended to teach and train JBR and her brother on better bathroom and hygiene habits. Perhaps she just still felt overwhelmed and unfortunately could depend on JR to get involved or help with that responsibility at all since it appears he thought taking care of the children was PR’a job.

Quick Guide to Encopresis - Child Mind Institute

Get free tips on helping children with encopresis. Encopresis (or soiling) is a disorder in which a child over the age of four repeatedly poops in places other than the toilet, like their clothes or the floor.

childmind.org

JonBenet Ramsey: Missing Innocence

The Christmas-night murder of six-year-old beauty-pageant winner JonBenet Ramsey in Boulder, Colorado, shocked the country and turned her millionaire parents, John and Patsy, into suspects.

www.vanityfair.com

I agree with much of your post!! It seems like Patsy never lacked energy nor willpower when it came to Prepping Jonbenet for beauty pageants!

Seems like it would be a ton of work for Patsy making costumes...arranging hair and makeup and practicing her routines etc etc

IMO. As a parent I see misplaced priorities. Patsy found strength for what was important to her..... Jonbenet is winning Little Miss Colorado but has a chronic bed setting problem....

 

[GRT]

There is a photo on this link (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/r...e/news-story/2d82e891d8d9b2031efd963cf92ef0ae) of the two police officers that are standing in front of the house. There appears to be what could be bike tracks seen to the right of the officers. Straight lines that go from the right corner sidewalk to the direction of the house. Parts of them seem to be melted away already, but it is possible to use ones imagination.
I do not know it they are bike track marks, but they are the only ones that I found. Or if they are anything at all. But, I can see at least 4 lines going across the shadow of the police tape...

Because the two tracks run parallel, that looks more like a sled track to me, as if a child was pulling a sled along.

 

[GRT]

Please tell me to “go kick rocks” because I am not fully yet up to date on all of the details. But, I’m listening to the Crime Junkies podcast on this and I am wondering if Mr. Fleet and/or Mr. Stine were ever fully investigated into?

Lou Smit stated that a faction within the BPD decided the Ramseys were the killers and didn't look into anyone else seriously. However, Detective Thomas said the opposite about the DA's office. Both quit due to their feelings.

But, in what world do we not investigate FW? He changed JBR's panties, even wiped her. The Whites had keys to the Ramsey's house. The Ramseys stayed late Christmas night at the Whites and there were rumors the White may have drugged one or more of them via a drink or food. Fleet White said he'd searched the basement previously that morning and hadn't found JBR. But after JR carried her body upstairs, Arnt ordered Fleet to guard the basement door--yet he went back down and fiddled with the duct tape and put it on the blanket. He also moved a cigar box.

For me, however, the real behavior that sends up a red flag is FW's emotional near-breakdown in Georgia and the way he sent several rambling letters after that to the media. He threatened to use the BPD if they didn't exonerate him, so they finally said they considered him a "witness" not a suspect. The story says they felt they could always return him to the status of suspect.

Then, he sued to have his Grand Jury testimony released. and, keep in mind that he'd asked the DA's office to give him the record of his first deposition before he ever testified at the GJ. That's so very, very odd to me. As if he needed his deposition and GJ testimony to keep his stories straight.

But, he was looked into to some extent.

 

[concernedcitizen706]

Yes, I totally agree with you. I just posted this photo because there was a discussion about this topic and out of interest I went out and did a little search on my own. It is the only thing I found that could be tracks. But also could not be.

I too live in a country where we have months of snow. But here we usually do not ride bikes when there is snow on the ground.
I too find that this is insignificant, because we know from the statements of the parents and the neighbors that both kids rode their bikes. I find that it is normal if there were bike tracks across the lawn if the snow was fresh. Nothing wrong with t

I'm not sure if those are the correct pictures of the bike tracks in the snow. From my understanding it was a bike track in the fresh frost or snow that happened late night the night before. Because otherwise, we can assume if it had been there from the days before, then it wouldn't have been notable. So since the snow was after midnight, nobody should have been riding their bike around. I also believe that some of the snow or frost melted as the day went on and the sun got higher, after the police got there. So perhaps it's something police saw more when they first got there, but by the time they got the pictures, some of that had melted. Again we are not privy to all the evidence, so I'm just going by what's reported, that they saw a fresh single bike track, to or from the house.