If you look at it logically it's very clear who did it!

[Deleted member 187229]

There are people that dispute the 911 call recording, but it was done with the best technology.
If he was awake, would your thoughts on his innocence change?

If that is burke in the recording my thoughts about innocence wouldn’t change because being awake during the call doesn’t prove anything. It invokes questions that need answers but it doesn’t prove anything regarding the murder.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

If that is burke in the recording my thoughts about innocence wouldn’t change because being awake during the call doesn’t prove anything. It invokes questions that need answers but it doesn’t prove anything regarding the murder.

Maybe he woke up and asked what was going on and John said, “don’t tell him anything” and they gave him an Ativan or whatever the hell Patsy was on so he would go back to sleep. I don’t think being awake proves (or disproves) anything. I think he’s a weirdo though.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

does anyone know (outside of the CIA) if there have been conspiracies that end up being true? I haven’t looked into it. But (and take this with a grain of salt), Candace DeLong says that when crimes involve multiple offenders, one eventually talks. For example, the Karen case that ran over her cop boyfriend and the theory that the policemen there are covering for each other- she (Candace DeLong) says that that just doesn’t happen… someone talks eventually. On the other hand, I guess we don’t know about the crimes where multiple offenders conspiring together don’t talk haha.

 

[Bean&Cheese]

I suppose I should have related this back to Ramsey case… if it were a police cover-up; there would be a whistle-blower. I was interested in the church and the child-sex ring, but I think someone would had talked by now. No? Perhaps JR or FW will make deathbed confessions of what they know.

 

[Chypre]

I suppose I should have related this back to Ramsey case… if it were a police cover-up; there would be a whistle-blower. I was interested in the church and the child-sex ring, but I think someone would had talked by now. No? Perhaps JR or FW will make deathbed confessions of what they know.

I've been fascinated with whether how substance use affects confessions. My first thought is nobody can keep a secret that long with ,meds, drugs, alcohol but I haven't found anything that says that. It boggles my mind

 

[Chypre]

If that is burke in the recording my thoughts about innocence wouldn’t change because being awake during the call doesn’t prove anything. It invokes questions that need answers but it doesn’t prove anything regarding the murder.

What questions? Seriously, that might need a thread.

 

[Tower]

I'm trying to discuss how much evidence or proof is needed for a prosecutorial theory.

IMO, remembering that conversation, it appeared that Jim Clemente: believed Burke was the #1 suspect, when asked how his belief was backed up he said Burke was awake that night. Then I asked how that proves his theory. He said Burke was recorded. Then I babbled about reasonable doubt and specifically if "just" a recording of being awake can be proof. That's when he replied questioning the odds of the Ramseys being innocent. (Nice ducking out of answering, JC!)

Personally, and anyone that reads my posts, I really take reasonable doubt seriously

ANY LAWYERS or legal people on here? Is proof that Burke was awake, enough to focus on him?

The Grand Jury saw the prosecution’s evidence and stated JBR’s death was 1st degree murder. A 9-year-old cannot commit 1st degree murder, so that rules him out. He also cannot be a suspect in any type of murder scenario. Accidental harm, yes, but not murder.

 

[Chypre]

The Grand Jury saw the prosecution’s evidence and stated JBR’s death was 1st degree murder. A 9-year-old cannot commit 1st degree murder, so that rules him out. He also cannot be a suspect in any type of murder scenario. Accidental harm, yes, but not murder.

I'm wondering IF the distinction that she was killed by the impact "brain dead" as noted by Dr. Lee/The Case of JonBenet and then suffocated while "the heart organ can contract on its own" (but Dr. Lee implied she was dead already) translated to the jury.

IMO, If the grand jury thinks her contracting heart means she was alive when the garrote was used, I can see why they put down first degree murder.

Edit: And maybe the distinction between the two was part of the decision not to go further?

 

[Bean&Cheese]

I've been fascinated with whether how substance use affects confessions. My first thought is nobody can keep a secret that long with ,meds, drugs, alcohol but I haven't found anything that says that. It boggles my mind

You would think that John would have blabbed about it to his new wife already or that Burke would have alluded to something while playing Fortnite (or whatever he does in his own time)… who is going to do a solid and seduce Burke and get him to spill any beans he may or may not have?

 

[Chypre]

You would think that John would have blabbed about it to his new wife already or that Burke would have alluded to something while playing Fortnite (or whatever he does in his own time)… who is going to do a solid and seduce Burke and get him to spill any beans he may or may not have?

Lol, not me. I can't think of anything that would have the power to compel more of his testimony than what he's already been asked in front of the grand jury.

 

[GRT]

Snipped by me for focus on one element of your post…

I’m glad you brought up the behaviour panel, I watch a lot of their videos. I go there a lot when I’m following a crime, see if they’ve covered it, and what is their perspective. They have a very unique skill set.
In one of their earlier episodes on this case, you are right, their position on the Rs was that they had "guilty knowledge". It's been a while since I watched it, it may have been just in PR that they detected guilty knowledge.

Much more recently, the panel actually met JR, i might be wrong but I think it was at a Crime Con? Meeting him in person, they seemed to have a very favourable impression of him. My theory is that these white alpha males at the top of their field feel a common bond with JR, a white alpha male successful in his field. I think JR has a gift of winning people over. Like Lou S.

Anyway, love their coverage of different personalities in the news, I highly recommend giving them a watch, they’re on YouTube.

IMHO

I'll have to look for that coverage on Crime Con. Like you, I really enjoy those guys. Especially Chase--but they're all good! My xmas gift from my son was Chase's Behavioral Ops book. It's massive, I haven't even made a dent.

Yeah, they're not convinced Patsy was being 100% honest, but they seem to think John and Burke are on the up and up. They all mentioned that they think Burke could be on the spectrum, and I could see their points as they walked through his interview with Dr. Phil.

I'm tickled someone else here is a Behavior Panel fan. And I agree--they're well-worth watching.

Thanks for sharing!

 

[GRT]

I took JR's extreme rush to get a flight out as a primary reason for him *finally* going down to the basement and bringing JBR's body up. The hours were ticking by and the day was quickly disappearing. He had places to go and things to do... while it was still light out, ya know?

Wasn't he supposed to co-polite that flight and that it'd had been originally scheduled to leave earlier that morning?

JR (MOO) always seemed the stoic type, who didn't show emotion but threw himself into his work. I think work was his escape--his retreat.

I've seen various reactions to the death of a loved one. I've seen family members break down and need to be sedated, and I've seen the ones who wouldn't face their grief and lived in denial--going about their lives as if nothing happened.

I've never been one to judge how another human processes their grief and whether they've outwardly displayed it in an acceptable manner.

There but for the grace of God, and all...

 

[GRT]

He said it was "an inside job" from day one. Following the clues planted in the RN they first hinted it was Linda Hoffman-Pugh or a supposed disgruntled business associate / employee of John's. Then it became the crazed, sick pedophile. A creature. Then back to an inside job. Then can't imagine they knew anyone capable of it. Back to the sicko pedophile.

RSBM for focus.

I think that's probably a normal process when something as horrific as your child being murdered in your own home happens. You'd suspect anyone. Everyone. How could you help it?

MOO

 

[GRT]

The FBI was Involved.
JRs team tried to hire retired FBI expert and he politely declined because he had seen enough to know the crime scene screamed STAGED.

The FBI tried to help with the investigation, but they were "rebuffed" early on. If BPD had any sense, they would have had the FBI there the minute Patsy reported a kidnapping. By the time they got there--the crime scene had been irreversibly compromised.

"In describing how the investigation could have gone more smoothly, Walker also said that the FBI's initial offer to help the Boulder Police Department was rebuffed, contributing to what Kurtis called "crucial mistakes" in the hours before the police brought the FBI back into the case. These mistakes included searches that were not conducted, and neighbors that were not immediately interviewed."

 

[Deleted member 187229]

What questions? Seriously, that might need a thread.

You’d have to find out why the parents said he was asleep if it was confirmed 100% that is his voice. I don’t think it could be confirmed and I think once patsy hung up the phone, the call disconnected. The 911 calls on YouTube can’t be verified so we don’t know if they’re authentic or not.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Maybe he woke up and asked what was going on and John said, “don’t tell him anything” and they gave him an Ativan or whatever the hell Patsy was on so he would go back to sleep. I don’t think being awake proves (or disproves) anything. I think he’s a weirdo though.

I don’t think Burke’s a weirdo. I think he suffers from nerves. People react to nervousness in their own way. I admire him for going on Dr Phil to speak about what happened from his point of view. People wanted to hear from him for years and years and when he finally spoke he got the worst reception from the very people who wanted to hear from him. Poor guy. No wonder why his parents had to shield him when he was young. People are so toxic and judgemental. The things that are said about that family on this forum are sickening.

 

[Swirlz]

I too have been shocked by the harsh judgements and lack of compassion for him, and in particular in a folder that is supposedly supposed to be all about caring about and justice for a child.

 

[Deleted member 187229]

Consider the logic of this timeline working backwards;

1 pm Body found
1 am Jonbenet death (12 hours prior - Schiller Overkill documentary)
11 pm Eat pineapple / hit head (2 hours prior to death - Jonbenet encyclopaedia)
11 pm Burke in bed (stayed up for 30 mins post parents going to bed guesstimated based on interview by Dr Phil)
10:30 Parents in bed (Jonbenet encyclopaedia)

While there are some vagaries in this it basically indicates that Burke and Jonbenet likely crossed paths supporting Burke involvement in some capacity. It also indicates that given the movements in the house, there was no time for an an intruder to write the Ransom Note with a conscious Jonbenet in his/her possession. It makes no sense otherwise. So the RN is staged and Burke could well be involved knowingly or otherwise.

Ransome note was probably written while the ramseys were at the whites Christmas party. He had hours before they came home. That’s why he said he would call tomorrow, because the note was written in advance. John was ruled out as the author and patsy scored 4.5 out of 5 meaning she probably didn’t write it.

 

[Swirlz]

The condition of JBR's bed/bathroom area: JBR's party pants, vest and boots are in a heap right inside her bedroom door, her toilet contains waste, a pair of her pants are inside-out on her bathroom floor, soiled, a diaper package is pulled partway off of her shelf, the top PR initially claimed to have put JBR to bed in is on top of JBR's bathroom sink, the room reeks of urine although the sheet is dry. ST's theory is that PR ran the sheet through the dryer and then replaced it before police arrived.

How PR responds to this evidence: PR claims JBR occasionally forgot to flush and that her wiping skills were poor. JBR has a fairly well documented history of soiling accidents but poor wiping and forgetting to flush are all PR will admit to. PR is shown a pic of the top she claimed to have put JBR to bed in. This is the same top PR admits to having argued with JBR about earlier in the day. PR breaks down and the interview has to be stopped. This is one of only two times PR breaks down during a police interview, the other time being when PR is asked about abuse of either herself or her sisters in their family of origin.

The pineapple: Both PR's and BR's prints are on the dish. During a police interview, BR says he recognizes the dish and that what is in the pic being shown 'looks like fruit'. In 2016, adult BR tells Dr. Phil he can't remember whether or not he ate pineapple that night. During her police interview, PR adamantly denies knowing anything about the pineapple and says she didn't set that dish out, she cites the large spoon being something she wouldn't have set out.

O.k., so it looks a lot like there was an incident upstairs in JBR's bed/bathroom area that no one wants to talk about. In the police interview, when BR is asked about JBR's toileting problems, he curls up into a fetal position in his chair. There was a part where the detective asked BR specifically what his parents would do when JBR wet the bed and he said they would tell JBR, 'you need to learn'. This last part seems to have been edited out of more recent YouTube videos though.

And obviously at some point pineapple was set out either by BR or PR and JBR took a piece.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

Well the DA knew there wasn’t enough evidence to reach a conviction. Grand juries aren’t always 100% right, lots of innocent people have been sent to jail. It was also a high profile case with lots of media attention. We don’t know what was presented to the grand jury but if there was enough evidence to go ahead with a prosecution the DA would have. You don’t need a grand jury to charge someone, if there was enough police thought they had a winning case with enough evidence they would have charged the Ramsey’s decades ago. There’s not enough evidence, only theories and theories aren’t facts. In my opinion, the reason why there isn’t enough evidence against the ramseys is because they didn’t do it. Unknown male 1 did it in my opinion and no one knows who he is.

I'm going with LE, FBI, Grand jury's opinion that the intruder is a yarn spun by JR and PR. I'm going with the folks that were there in real time who have put in 1000s of man hours and don't believe in phantoms