If you support the Ramseys or are on the fence, please read this...

[Texana]

Bruno Hauptmann, the Lindbergh kidnapper, received a lot of favorable post-trial/execution publicity about his innocence, but when you read the details of the case, you find he was discovered with the ransom money in his garage--for which he had no explanation.

The best and simplest explanation for the Lindbergh child's death was that the kidnapper dropped the child as he carried the baby down the ladder. Wouldn't be that easy to carry a baby and maintain a grip on a ladder rung at the same time.

It's a fair point to bring up that the public reactions of people are not necessarily an indicator of guilt or innocence, although some actions are so egregious as to immediately spark a "he/she must be guilty or crazy" reaction--such as Darlie Routier literally dancing with silly string on her sons' graves, or Scott Peterson hastening to sell his home and his wife's car before even six months had passed. Those were actions, though, not attitudes, and I think attitudes can be misread--another reason we can't use that as indicator of guilt. (Not saying the Ramseys are innocent, just that I don't think their behavior can be used as a sign one way or the other.)

Thank you for the nice welcome to the JBR forum!

 

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by Texana
Bruno Hauptmann, the Lindbergh kidnapper, received a lot of favorable post-trial/execution publicity about his innocence, but when you read the details of the case, you find he was discovered with the ransom money in his garage--for which he had no explanation.

The best and simplest explanation for the Lindbergh child's death was that the kidnapper dropped the child as he carried the baby down the ladder. Wouldn't be that easy to carry a baby and maintain a grip on a ladder rung at the same time.

It's a fair point to bring up that the public reactions of people are not necessarily an indicator of guilt or innocence, although some actions are so egregious as to immediately spark a "he/she must be guilty or crazy" reaction--such as Darlie Routier literally dancing with silly string on her sons' graves, or Scott Peterson hastening to sell his home and his wife's car before even six months had passed. Those were actions, though, not attitudes, and I think attitudes can be misread--another reason we can't use that as indicator of guilt. (Not saying the Ramseys are innocent, just that I don't think their behavior can be used as a sign one way or the other.)

Thank you for the nice welcome to the JBR forum!

Lindberg info:Thanks.I still wonder why they're are so/TOO many questions unanswered regarding JonBenet...1996 (so much had/ s advanced in this area/murder-solving methods...ya know?)?
:dontknow:
HOW RARE IS IT TO NOT-SOLVE-THE-ONLY-MURDER-OF-1996 IN BOULDER COLORADO? ... or is this COMMON / NORMAL OCCURRENCE(s) ???
:dontknow: :nono:

 

[Texana]

Well, it did help that Hauptmann pretty much papered his garage with the ransom money.

Has it every been discussed in detail on this forum, that the Boulder police chief trained under Lee P. Brown, the police chief in Atlanta during the child murders there, and now lame-duck term mayor in Houston, Texas? I think it's in the Steve Thomas book where the police chief brags "I was trained under Lee P. Brown."

Lee Brown is a living example of the Peter Principle--promoted beyond his competence. Way beyond. He's completely incompetent. It remains to be seen whether Houston can recover from his mismanagement--The police chief he appointed presided over a debacle of a crime lab that is now having all its evidence retested, and several major cases involving DNA are on the line. (Lee Brown was police chief before, so we can't blame it ALL on the chief he appointed.)

I just wondered how much attention was paid to that fact.

If you don't secure the crime scene, how can any evidence be reliable?

 

[gretchen]

Originally posted by Texana
Well, it did help that Hauptmann pretty much papered his garage with the ransom money.

Has it every been discussed in detail on this forum, that the Boulder police chief trained under Lee P. Brown, the police chief in Atlanta during the child murders there, and now lame-duck term mayor in Houston, Texas? I think it's in the Steve Thomas book where the police chief brags "I was trained under Lee P. Brown."

Lee Brown is a living example of the Peter Principle--promoted beyond his competence. Way beyond. He's completely incompetent. It remains to be seen whether Houston can recover from his mismanagement--The police chief he appointed presided over a debacle of a crime lab that is now having all its evidence retested, and several major cases involving DNA are on the line. (Lee Brown was police chief before, so we can't blame it ALL on the chief he appointed.)

I just wondered how much attention was paid to that fact.

If you don't secure the crime scene, how can any evidence be reliable?

Yep, any evidence found is probably going to be thrown out because the crime scene was mishandled. To make matters worse, Pam Paugh was allowed to retrieve items from the home. Under no circumstances should that have been allowed to happen. This case will never be prosecuted because of these issues. I have no confidence at all about Mary Keenan either.

 

[Blazeboy3]

Originally posted by gretchen
Yep, any evidence found is probably going to be thrown out because the crime scene was mishandled. To make matters worse, Pam Paugh was allowed to retrieve items from the home. Under no circumstances should that have been allowed to happen. This case will never be prosecuted because of these issues. I have no confidence at all about Mary Keenan either.

Could be that this case w/never be solved...BUT WHY IN THIS DAY/AGE? IMHO "COMMON SENSE SAYS THIS MURDER CASE--THE ONLY ONE in 1996 SHOULD BE ABSOLUTELY SOLVEABLE!!!,,,...
or maybe it's all about money=wealth=treatment=justice=(don't go there pal?)=(we can and will find you stated by John Ramsey... "CAN AND WILL FIND YOU" is what I can't get passed(have difficulty understanding) here,to date... help anyone w/translation? :dontknow:

 

[Blazeboy3]

Anyone here remember this past history truth/info:
http://half.ebay.com/cat/buy/prod.cgi?cpidEQ339870AMPdomain_idEQ1856AMPmeta_idEQ1

The Franklin Cover-Up : Child Abuse, Satanism, and Murder in Nebraska (Paperback, 1996)
Author: John W. Decamp

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0963215809/103-7734342-7122263
I live in Omaha and I well remember when this story broke in the press. It was big news; Lindbergh baby headlines, in fact. When I saw this book was available, I knew I had to read it and find out the information that the press refused to carry. John DeCamp names names and skewers people with little regard for his own personal safety.

I won't go into too much detail on what happened. Read the book to find that out. It is sufficient to say that there were many allegations of child abuse, homosexual encounters, drug abuse and embezzlement of monies involved. The people accused of the abuse were very prominent people in Omaha society, and still are today. DeCamp lays it all out for everyone to see. He cites sources and makes devastating charges against all those involved. He even indicts the federal government as a willing participant in this cover-up. DeCamp is most impressive when he outlines the scandals of Bob Kerrey's tenure as Nebraska governor in the early and mid 1980's. Several bank scandals and questionable loans cast Kerrey in a fairly sinister light. DeCamp says Kerrey used NIFA (Nebraska Investment Finance Authority) to make loans to his buddies and corporate interests. This is the same thing Bill Clinton did in Arkansas with the ADFA while he was governor, around the same time! Those wacky Democrats! What will they come up with next!

http://www.ftrbooks.net/psych/cia_mind_control/franklin.htm
Customer Comments

A reader from USA, July 8, 1999
It is all true.
I helped investigative this case and, unfortunately, everything in the book is true. I hope that someday justice will be done. For now, however, those of us whose lives were involved in the investigation of this case will still have to accept that, "They were too big, and we were too small."

A reader from midwest region, July 4, 1999
SHOCKING.... must be read.
I grew up in Omaha, Nebraska in the 1980's and had no clue as to what was happening. This book will open your eyes. It will change the way you look at our government and the world in general. There seems to be evil everywhere and our children need to be protected.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0963215809/kamurj0b/103-7734342-7122263
The Franklin Cover-Up by John W. Decamp 2000

The Franklin Cover Up has a news update.The author John DeCamp recently won a million dollar lawsuit for two of the children discussed in the book.We plan to bring him to speak in Maine ..Interested readers should contact Bella English of the Boston Globe Newspaper.She authored a recent article... Read more

 

[ajt400]

As far as the Wayne Williams case goes in Atl, he was caught leaving a bridge after cops heard a big splash over a bridge. No one else was on the bridge at the time, and they soon found another body of another child. IMO you can test DNA all day long, but what explanation can he give for that. (It was a big splash, not like someone urinating, etc.)

 

[dauberdoo]

I think the Ramsey's are innocent and that the crime was commited by someone outside the family.

To have a Male's DNA on her underwear that comes from a stranger is very powerful to me.Show me who it belongs to and then we can talk some more.

Until then that evidence would create resaonable doubt in just about any jury.

 

[Shylock]

Originally posted by dauberdoo
To have a Male's DNA on her underwear that comes from a stranger is very powerful to me.Show me who it belongs to and then we can talk some more.

You should read-up on the case more. According to the experts at CellMark, the DNA you mentioned might not even exist at all. It might be a by-product of the testing process itself.

This isn't a DNA case. Hopefully now that the underwear has been given to the FBI they will make that perfectly clear to the public.

 

[txsvicki]

I've always been on the fence. Not sure either way. Some of the behavior in the beginning was very suspicious to me. I can not understand why John and Patsy did not run searching every inch of that house when Jon Benet was found to be missing. Why did they not look over each room looking for open windows, doors, etc. If they found a note, then thought a kidnapping took place, why not more reason to run to the basement exits. Then, later, they let friends take Burk away. Most women would be terrified for their other child and not let him out of her sight. They didn't even know whether the friends could have possibly be involved. Then at the memorial, Patsy had on makeup. I can't imagine even being up and walking around much less being able to apply or have makeup applied.

 

[sissi]

You should read-up on the case more. According to the experts at CellMark, the DNA you mentioned might not even exist at all. It might be a by-product of the testing process itself.

This isn't a DNA case. Hopefully now that the underwear has been given to the FBI they will make that perfectly clear to the public.

I've read every book ,short of the "esoteric type",and strongly disagree with your statement. This news concerning the DNA is CURRENT and accurate,no one,not one tab or tab news show , is going to be able to "slosh" around misinformation with the fbi handling this dna. It was accepted because it met the criteria!
IMO JMO

 

[haypaula]

I cannot support the Ramseys because there are lingering questions which defy the intruder theory. I have many more but will post a few to save space:

Who fed JonBenet pineapple and how did they know she liked it?

Who put the dish which had contained the pineapple that PR said she never bought, on the kitchen table?

Why did Fleet White, a long time friend of the Ramseys, distance himself from them and suspect them after he accompanied JR and found JBR's body behind a door in a room that JR said was never used?

What person would stay in someone's house for hours wating for the Ramseys to come home and go to sleep before molesting JBR?

What person would risk writing a long ransom note in the person's home with their stationery, their pen and only request $118,000 from a multi-millionaire, which BTW, was the exact amount of JR's bonus?

What stranger would know about a room in the house that the family's maid didn't even know existed?

What stranger would redress JBR and and cover her?

Why would a neighbor hear JBR's screams yet her family did not?

What 5 year old little girl has repeated vaginal inflammation? (This along with repeated bedwetting, which JBR had, are telltale signs of sexual abuse)

I have many, many more such questions, which defy logic, but refrained from making such a lengthy post.

 

[sissi]

I cannot support the Ramseys because there are lingering questions which defy the intruder theory. I have many more but will post a few to save space:

Who fed JonBenet pineapple and how did they know she liked it?
The hours involved in digestion suggest the pineapple was eaten hours before her murder....science will eventually prevail with this question.

Who put the dish which had contained the pineapple that PR said she never bought, on the kitchen table?( not sure it is part of the crime)

Why did Fleet White, a long time friend of the Ramseys, distance himself from them and suspect them after he accompanied JR and found JBR's body behind a door in a room that JR said was never used? (he was afraid the suspicioun would point toward him)

What person would stay in someone's house for hours wating for the Ramseys to come home and go to sleep before molesting JBR?
(the killer)
What person would risk writing a long ransom note in the person's home with their stationery, their pen and only request $118,000 from a multi-millionaire, which BTW, was the exact amount of JR's bonus?
(the killer)
What stranger would know about a room in the house that the family's maid didn't even know existed?
(ditto above)
What stranger would redress JBR and and cover her?( redress??)

Why would a neighbor hear JBR's screams yet her family did not?
(the vent led outside,makes sense)

What 5 year old little girl has repeated vaginal inflammation? (This along with repeated bedwetting, which JBR had, are telltale signs of sexual abuse)
(both of the children were bedwetters until around this age,the inflammation is indicative of nothing suggesting child abuse)

I have many, many more such questions, which defy logic, but refrained from making such a lengthy post.

(Keep them coming,I am waiting for one that makes me go hmmm,so far in all of these years,I see absolutely nothing that suggests a Ramsey killed their chld)

Nothing personal,IMO,the Ramseys are innocent!!!!

 

[Shylock]

I've read every book ,short of the "esoteric type",and strongly disagree with your statement. This news concerning the DNA is CURRENT and accurate,no one,not one tab or tab news show , is going to be able to "slosh" around misinformation with the fbi handling this dna. It was accepted because it met the criteria!
IMO JMO

I think you missed the point. Just because it was sent to the FBI doesn't mean it has to exist. This garbage DNA barely made the minumim requirement to be submitted. There is NO PROOF this DNA is even related to the crime. It might be stutter effect. It might be contamination from Meyer's lab or any number of places. It might have been in the underwear before she even put them on. All THAT makes this NOT a DNA case--period.

 

[Shylock]

(Keep them coming,I am waiting for one that makes me go hmmm,so far in all of these years,I see absolutely nothing that suggests a Ramsey killed their chld)

Then you need to get your butt over to FFJ and view Darnay Hoffman's court evidence of Patsy's handwriting compared to the ransom note. If you do that and you're not convinced that Patsy wrote the note, then you either need your vision corrected or you're some stooge that's on the Ramsey payroll. Maybe you're that psycho Susan (the dyke) Stein...LOL

 

[Afton]

I really am surprised at how many fence sitters or posters that believe the Ramseys are innocent posted on your thread. I just started posting case again and don't know how long I will last , but I didn't see any fence sitters or Ramseys supporters on the thread I posted on, so I will post my thoughts here. And thanks for your thread and the eye opener.

Cold Case Files
Just the fact that it is entered into the FBI Database is a real plus....Cold Cases can be solved years later....

Intruders are brazen enough to enter homes ...Elizabeth Smart and Polly Klaas are just two examples.

Roy Black had a case in Flordia where the father was accused of killing his daughter and it turned out to be the next door neighbor's carpet cleaner.

Quote: "Test results in 1997 and 1999 were not of high-enough quality to submit to the database, but a new DNA profile was worked up and submitted last month, Wood said.

Keenan would say only that DNA information in the case has been sent to the database. Wood was more specific: The test results are from DNA from a male unrelated to the Ramseys that was found intermingled with JonBenet’s blood in her underwear."

And I give Lin Wood Credit, they should have had him from the beginning as their attorney...When the "no foot prints in the snow" and other innuendoes flew fast and furious to paint the Ramseys as their daughter's killer.

Murdered and left in the home

There are plenty of people that are murdered and left in their homes. How many children that happened to however, maybe small in numbers (if any--I have never checked with the many states and databases to see), but IMO it could happen in this case as well as in other cases. The Roy Black case in Florida may have been one...Roy Black was on TV and the case interested me and I posted about it

no subject

In the year 2525 the DNA in the FBI database just might match --and there were fibers that were not matched, but setting that aside until the year 2525..

From the Protess & Warden book written about the Dowaliby case, "In each case, the police targeted the parents based on two assumptions that proved wrong---first, that missing children invariably are taken by family members, and second, that strangers cannot enter homes in the middle of the night and snatch children without awakening parents. It is a fact and is also well within the behavior range of intruder child killings.... The DA will have to prove that no one else could have entered the house."Serra Mesa, California:

Another case:

Eight-year old Alicia" was abducted on May 8, 1989, by an intruder who entered her home through a window, took her out of her bed raped her, and put her back.... Her father was charged with rape.... while he was awaitng trial, forensic tests exonerated him and implicated a man with prior convictions for child molestation.

This child told investigators from the very beginning that a man had entered her bedroom window. In the end, DNA from semen found on her panties matched him to a known pedophile who had used the same method of entry in other cases and who lived near Alicia and her family
Many such cases are unsolved.

The point being that murders and crime scenes can be a first. Do you remember the List case....The meek accountant that killed his wife, children and his mother in law and left a note...Vanished and was not found until many years later when it was profiled on TV and an a cast was made of his face from photographs using the aging process. I don't recall another case like that.

 

[PinkPanther]

I hope the Ramsey's had nothing to do with JonBenet's death. It is difficult for me to believe her parent(s) could be involved in killing their beautiful child. IF one of the family IS guilty, I believe it would be Patsy because of the note and her erratic behavior. However, if the Ramseys are innocent, they have suffered horribly by losing their precious child as well as being accused of killing her. I hope eventually we will all find out the truth.

Happy New Year to WebSleuths from WebDetectives!

 

[txsvicki]

The whole thing seems almost like the killer could be a teenager.

 

[sissi]

Then you need to get your butt over to FFJ and view Darnay Hoffman's court evidence of Patsy's handwriting compared to the ransom note. If you do that and you're not convinced that Patsy wrote the note, then you either need your vision corrected or you're some stooge that's on the Ramsey payroll. Maybe you're that psycho Susan (the dyke) Stein...LOL

Goodness! I will not respond to name calling Shylock!

As far as the print is concerned,it's the overall picture,the way a note/letter is formatted,the pressure of the pen,the amount of steadiness,the vocabulary used,etc...there is so much more than suggesting one's printed "y" looks suspicious.
Heck,JT's was almost identical,Santa's was in question, others were called back,but true,not as often as Patsy,they really wanted her to be guilty.

JMO IMO
and darn,I better get the pink angora out..the rumors "ya know"

 

[sissi]

I really am surprised at how many fence sitters or posters that believe the Ramseys are innocent posted on your thread. I just started posting case again and don't know how long I will last , but I didn't see any fence sitters or Ramseys supporters on the thread I posted on, so I will post my thoughts here. And thanks for your thread and the eye opener.

Cold Case Files
Just the fact that it is entered into the FBI Database is a real plus....Cold Cases can be solved years later....

Intruders are brazen enough to enter homes ...Elizabeth Smart and Polly Klaas are just two examples.

Roy Black had a case in Flordia where the father was accused of killing his daughter and it turned out to be the next door neighbor's carpet cleaner.

Quote: "Test results in 1997 and 1999 were not of high-enough quality to submit to the database, but a new DNA profile was worked up and submitted last month, Wood said.

Keenan would say only that DNA information in the case has been sent to the database. Wood was more specific: The test results are from DNA from a male unrelated to the Ramseys that was found intermingled with JonBenet’s blood in her underwear."

And I give Lin Wood Credit, they should have had him from the beginning as their attorney...When the "no foot prints in the snow" and other innuendoes flew fast and furious to paint the Ramseys as their daughter's killer.

Murdered and left in the home

There are plenty of people that are murdered and left in their homes. How many children that happened to however, maybe small in numbers (if any--I have never checked with the many states and databases to see), but IMO it could happen in this case as well as in other cases. The Roy Black case in Florida may have been one...Roy Black was on TV and the case interested me and I posted about it

no subject

In the year 2525 the DNA in the FBI database just might match --and there were fibers that were not matched, but setting that aside until the year 2525..

From the Protess & Warden book written about the Dowaliby case, "In each case, the police targeted the parents based on two assumptions that proved wrong---first, that missing children invariably are taken by family members, and second, that strangers cannot enter homes in the middle of the night and snatch children without awakening parents. It is a fact and is also well within the behavior range of intruder child killings.... The DA will have to prove that no one else could have entered the house."Serra Mesa, California:

Another case:

Eight-year old Alicia" was abducted on May 8, 1989, by an intruder who entered her home through a window, took her out of her bed raped her, and put her back.... Her father was charged with rape.... while he was awaitng trial, forensic tests exonerated him and implicated a man with prior convictions for child molestation.

This child told investigators from the very beginning that a man had entered her bedroom window. In the end, DNA from semen found on her panties matched him to a known pedophile who had used the same method of entry in other cases and who lived near Alicia and her family
Many such cases are unsolved.

The point being that murders and crime scenes can be a first. Do you remember the List case....The meek accountant that killed his wife, children and his mother in law and left a note...Vanished and was not found until many years later when it was profiled on TV and an a cast was made of his face from photographs using the aging process. I don't recall another case like that.

AFTON,I remember you as being thorough and sensible,I guess my memory isn't as bad as I though
I have to add one,Westerfield! Not a fiber,not a hair dropped in that house,no dna on the body,and his first and last (as far as we know) kidnapping and murder! His first crime!
IMO