IL IL - Barbara, 15, & Patricia Grimes, 13, Chicago, 27 Dec 1956

  • #121
Gunther Toody:

Why does the fact that some people are still alive come into this?

Surely concealing things led to the problems solving the case in the first place?

There are people still alive who were either with the girls that night or who were possibly involved in the crime. I say possibly, because it requires statements by others to put them at the scene of the crime. These "others" are not willing to come forward out of fear of retaliation and do not want their name involved in any way. Those who may directly be involved, obviously do not want to help because of the statute of limitations does not expire with murder cases.

Most of the people involved are in their 70's now but in some cases, information has been given through deathbed confessions.
This type of information can sometimes be used in court by applying what are called the "Dead Man Statutes".
 
  • #122
Its wonderful to see interest in this case growing.
I have been investigating this for several years know many answers.
Unfortunately, people have to come forward and tell what they know for this case to be solved. So far, they refuse to.
I can share certain things with you, and others I can not, because people are still alive that are involved in the case.

As far as the rape goes...there were no real physical signs on their bodies, but it appears that sperm was found inside Barbara.
Nothing was found in Patricia.

We believe it was someone from the neighborhood who abducted them and took them to Willow Springs, where they were ultimately found.
The only way the bodies could have stayed in the condition they were found in is if they were placed in an area out of the elements that allowed them to cool fairly rapidly.

I can probably answer many of your questions on the case if you would like.
I have met with the Grimes family and they are still dedicated to solving this case.

Thank you for your help Gunther Toody, this is a run down of what I know so far with questions to follow :)


The autopsy report for both girls says cause of death - Secondary Shock - Exposure to low temperatures - cold. If this report is correct, PG and BG froze to death while kept captive, like in a meat locker in my opinion. Then after time had passed the perpetrators threw the girls out of a vehicle into a ditch on the side of the road not long before they were discovered by the passerby. The snow would have kept them in a frozen condition. It took 3 days for the bodies to thaw for the autopsy.

It was determined the girls died within 4 hours of leaving the theatre the night they went missing, even though there were many credible reported sightings of the girls up till 2 days before their bodies were found.

In this news article excerpt from Nov, 2013 -

Amazingly, the Cook County coroner could not determine how the girls died and the case was further damaged by vicious competition between competing police agencies eager to solve the crime.

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/24003303/who-killed-the-grimes-sisters-new-theory-emerges

So the coroners report may be wrong. How they died and/or when they died? Would that be your opinion too? If this is the case, do you believe the sightings were right they were alive well after the night at the theatre, and the phone call to a friend's house could possibly have been made by PB/GB?

TIA
 
  • #123
Thank you for your help Gunther Toody, this is a run down of what I know so far with questions to follow :)


The autopsy report for both girls says cause of death - Secondary Shock - Exposure to low temperatures - cold. If this report is correct, PG and BG froze to death while kept captive, like in a meat locker in my opinion. Then after time had passed the perpetrators threw the girls out of a vehicle into a ditch on the side of the road not long before they were discovered by the passerby. The snow would have kept them in a frozen condition. It took 3 days for the bodies to thaw for the autopsy.

The autopsy result of Secondary Shock was arrived at only because they could not determine the cause of death. Tests were run for poisoning, drugs, carbon monoxide. There were no marks consistent with death from injury or strangulation. Since they were found outside in freezing temperatures, the pathologists simply decided they froze to death. However, the pathologists did not realize that the signs on the bodies show that they could have been suffocated. Death from suffocation or hypothermia both present with reddish discoloration of the skin.

As far as taking three days to thaw, that would be consistent with being in a freezer as well. If you look at the temperature chart I posted on the thread, it shows that the temperatures were well into the fifties for the few days prior to their being found.

Both girls also had bruising on the cheek areas of their faces, which would be consistent with someone holding a hand over their face and suffocating them.
It was determined the girls died within 4 hours of leaving the theater the night they went missing, even though there were many credible reported sightings of the girls up till 2 days before their bodies were found.

In this news article excerpt from Nov, 2013 -

Amazingly, the Cook County coroner could not determine how the girls died and the case was further damaged by vicious competition between competing police agencies eager to solve the crime.

The reason they claimed that the girls died within four hours is because the doctors claim to have found food remnants in the stomach consistent with the last meal. However, friends of the girls saw them in the popcorn line at the theater, at 9:30 PM, yet there was no popcorn found in their systems.
http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/24003303/who-killed-the-grimes-sisters-new-theory-emerges

So the coroners report may be wrong. How they died and/or when they died? Would that be your opinion too? If this is the case, do you believe the sightings were right they were alive well after the night at the theatre, and the phone call to a friend's house could possibly have been made by PB/GB?

TIA

I believe that the girls disappeared that night and were never free again. The sightings are highly suspect as some involve the girls allegedly drinking in bars.
I doubt that the phone call is real because if someone were in that position and had access to a phone, the last thing I would think they would do is call a schoolmate instead of their family or the police.

I have a meeting upcoming with Richard Lindberg, the man interviewed in the Fox story to compare notes with him. I will post any relevant information from that meeting, here. The coroners report has intentionally left out details such as the sexual aspects of the case. According to a source, there was a determined effort to protect the reputations of the girls and the family, consequently the information about the sexual nature of the crimes was not openly reported.

I believe that they were either killed that night and put into a freezer or were kept alive until about three days before they were found. I base that entirely on the condition of the bodies as they were discovered. There was very little decomposition, and no putrefaction.
 
  • #124
A great way to learn more about the case is too utilize Google News Archives and the Chicago Tribune Archive search.
Simply create a search for combinations such as Grimes Sisters, Grimes Case, Grimes Murders, etc.
The Google news archives will provide original news articles that you can read and the Tribune will provide brief article summaries, since it is a subscription service.....

https://news.google.com/news/advanced_news_search?as_drrb=a

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/search.html

Much of what we have learned has come from these sources.
 
  • #125
Gunther Toody:

Do you think the conflict of 1950s morals with the fact that the murderer was also a rapist and the subsequent cover-up, cost a lot of chance finding the killer. If it had been publicised, I think more people might have been motivated to come forward.
 
  • #126
Gunther Toody:

Do you think the conflict of 1950s morals with the fact that the murderer was also a rapist and the subsequent cover-up, cost a lot of chance finding the killer. If it had been publicised, I think more people might have been motivated to come forward.
Hopefully I can word this correctly without sounding negative towards the girls.
People I have talked to have indicated that Barbara and Patricia were "wild" to say the least.
They also told me that in their opinion, the girls were no strangers to romps in the back seats of cars, (if you know what I mean).

The information we have does not point to a rapist, per se..
Rather it points to neighborhood guys who knew the girls and of their "reputation".
These guys happened upon the girls that night and lured them into the car for sex. After the act, I believe the girls threatened to tell and the boys had to prevent that.

At least that is where my information leads me.

There was a rush to judgment in the case as the Sheriff, Joe Lohman was going to run for governor in the next election. He needed a suspect and a conviction. They found a willing suspect in Bennie Bedwell, an illiterate dishwasher from the slums of Chicago. Bedwell was coerced into confessing to the crimes and concocted a wild confession about a week of drinking, sex, and partying all night long. The problem was that the physical evidence did not match points in Bedwell's confession. For example, Bedwell stated that he and an accomplice took the girls for hot dogs. However, during the autopsy no hot dog material was found in their systems.
Ultimately, Bedwell was released.

By wasting so much time and effort chasing illogical suspects, they overlooked the obvious.
 
  • #127
Hopefully I can word this correctly without sounding negative towards the girls.
People I have talked to have indicated that Barbara and Patricia were "wild" to say the least.
They also told me that in their opinion, the girls were no strangers to romps in the back seats of cars, (if you know what I mean).

The information we have does not point to a rapist, per se..
Rather it points to neighborhood guys who knew the girls and of their "reputation".
These guys happened upon the girls that night and lured them into the car for sex. After the act, I believe the girls threatened to tell and the boys had to prevent that.

At least that is where my information leads me.

There was a rush to judgment in the case as the Sheriff, Joe Lohman was going to run for governor in the next election. He needed a suspect and a conviction. They found a willing suspect in Bennie Bedwell, an illiterate dishwasher from the slums of Chicago. Bedwell was coerced into confessing to the crimes and concocted a wild confession about a week of drinking, sex, and partying all night long. The problem was that the physical evidence did not match points in Bedwell's confession. For example, Bedwell stated that he and an accomplice took the girls for hot dogs. However, during the autopsy no hot dog material was found in their systems.
Ultimately, Bedwell was released.

By wasting so much time and effort chasing illogical suspects, they overlooked the obvious.


Patricia also had "hook ups"... "romps" in the back seat? She was 12... that seems kind of young. Was she influenced by Barbara?
 
  • #128
I honestly haven't heard as much about Patricia, it was mostly Barbara.
They did hang together all the time though and I think Patricia may have been caught up in events out of her control.
I realize Patricia was young but she was definitely mature for her age and more outgoing than Barbara.
 
  • #129
According to Getting Away with Murder, food in the girls stomachs indicated that they'd eaten 3-6 hours before their deaths but it doesn't say what the food was; does anyone know? Supposedly they ate popcorn at the theater or were at least seen in line at the concession stand.

The girls reportedly sat, just with each other, through two screenings of the Presley movie. That doesn't sound like a pair of "wild" girls to me.
 
  • #130
According to Getting Away with Murder, food in the girls stomachs indicated that they'd eaten 3-6 hours before their deaths but it doesn't say what the food was; does anyone know? Supposedly they ate popcorn at the theater or were at least seen in line at the concession stand.

The girls reportedly sat, just with each other, through two screenings of the Presley movie. That doesn't sound like a pair of "wild" girls to me.

The best book I have found for the details of the case is Tamara Shaffer's "Murder Gone Cold". Shaffer spent years researching the information and interviewed the family numerous times for her work. It is available on Amazon.

Shaffer indicated that the dinner the girls ate consisted of mixed white and sweet potatoes and canned tuna, which was Barbara's favorite. This was followed with chocolate chip cookies for dessert. Patricia did not eat nearly as much as Barbara. On the way to the theater, they were accosted by the Red/Black car as I alluded to in an earlier post. However, they apparently got on the Archer Avenue bus without further incident and arrived at the Brighton theater in time for the movie.

Contrary to most accounts, there was a double feature playing at the Brighton. Love Me Tender, which was the early movie and The Opposite Sex, which was the later.

If we use the time they were seen in the popcorn line for reference, we can determine other times associated with the girls. They were seen in the line at 9:30. Love Me Tender which had just ended ran for 89 minutes. If we allow for a bathroom break and taking their time arriving in the popcorn line, that puts us at about 7:45 start time for the Elvis movie, which is consistent with their leaving home at around 7:20 and taking the bus the short distance to the show..

If I recall, movie intermissions lasted around twenty minutes or so, followed by previews of upcoming movies and a couple of cartoons before the next movie started.

Here is where the story gets murky.

There was a third girl sitting with them through the Elvis movie. She has come forward and is still alive. I will not name her for reasons to follow.
According to the third girl.....when the Elvis movie ended, the Grimes girls went to the lobby and she stayed behind. She indicated that the theater was virtually empty during this time. An older man sat next to her, which scared her because she didn't understand why he sat there with the entire theater being empty. Soon thereafter, he reached over and took her hand and put it in his lap. His penis was exposed and he began rubbing her hand on it with his. She was too terrified to react. After a short time he let her go, offered to buy her candy and left. She never moved and never saw him again.

When the Grimes girls returned, she said nothing of the event and she doesn't recall if they brought popcorn back with them. The three stayed for the cartoons then left before the next feature started. The three girls left together at (by my estimation) no later than 10:00. They proceeded eastbound on Archer Avenue and after walking a few blocks a black car pulled up in front of them on a cross street.

A man was alone in the car and offered the three girls a ride home. They accepted, and all three got into the back seat. According to the third girl (who sat behind the driver) there was little conversation other than he asked if the girls went to Kelly High School as they passed it. As they approached the intersection of Archer and Pershing, the driver made an abrupt right turn then another abrupt left into an alley. Coincidentally, that particular alley was behind the home of the third girl. The alley was full of potholes so the car went slowly. The third girl saw a neighbor of hers emptying garbage in the alley and she panicked because she feared that he would tell her father that she was in a car with a strange man, so she quickly exited the car.

She doesn't remember any particular fear of the driver and the Grimes girls were acting normal in the seat next to her. After she exited the vehicle, she quickly went into her home. She heard of the disappearance the next day and became terrified that the police and her father would find out she was in the car. The police came to her home the next day as the neighbor had apparently seen her exiting the car. She denied that she was with the girls to the cops and it was left at that. She described the driver as in his twenties, dark hair and taller. She didn't see his face clearly since she sat right behind him.

As for the girls being wild...

A Facebook group was formed dedicated to the case. Many people had come forward who knew the family and the girls in particular. They recall the sisters as being wild and keeping their own hours. I have alluded to this earlier in the thread.

Here is a series of images associated with the case.

First is the Grimes home at the time of the diasppearance.
Mother Loretta Grimes is sitting out front. The family lived upstairs.

grimeshomeold.jpg

Next, is the same home as it looks today. A construction company remodelled their home for free after the murders.

Grimes Home Today.jpg

Here is the Brighton Theater as it looked in the fifties.

brightonfifties.jpg

Here is the intersection of Archer Avenue and Pershing Rd. where the car containing the three girls made an abrupt right turn.

archper.JPG

Here is the alley where the car made the turn behind the third girl's home. (She lived in the apartment building on the left.)

archalley.JPG
 
  • #131
Thank you GT, that was a fascinating read, I could picture it happening in my mind. That poor girl, what a horror night she'd never forget, being molested and losing her friends. :(

The young guy most likely was the killer of the Grimes sisters and knew the area, where to take them and eventually store their bodies till he dumped them. If he's still alive, he'd be in his eighties. It'd be unreal if he still lived in the same town. :scared:
 
  • #132
Thank you GT, that was a fascinating read, I could picture it happening in my mind. That poor girl, what a horror night she'd never forget, being molested and losing her friends. :(

The young guy most likely was the killer of the Grimes sisters and knew the area, where to take them and eventually store their bodies till he dumped them. If he's still alive, he'd be in his eighties. It'd be unreal if he still lived in the same town. :scared:

Hello PS.
The person we suspect is 76 years old, not the man in the theater or car.
The irony is, he lives about 15 minutes from me. The problem is that there is only one person that can put him with the girls that night and that person has refused to become involved due to past threats.
 
  • #133
Hello PS.
The person we suspect is 76 years old, not the man in the theater or car.
The irony is, he lives about 15 minutes from me. The problem is that there is only one person that can put him with the girls that night and that person has refused to become involved due to past threats.

Oh my, how difficult it must be just knowing that, and nothing can be done.
 
  • #134
We are still working on it and are putting together a case file for law enforcement.
Hopefully they will become active in the case again.
 
  • #135
Here is an image of the Brighton Theater location today.

brightontoday.JPG

It was torn down several years ago. The large building on the left was at one time the home of Wolf Furniture.
Both Barbara and her older sister Theresa worked there part time. It is also the location where Patricia met Barbara on the day they disappeared. After leaving her job the girls took the bus home, had dinner and went to the theater.

The next image is the corner of Archer and Richmond, which is the location given by the third girl as where they were picked up by the man in the black car.
The girls were standing right about where the woman in the image is standing when they were approached by the car.

archrich1.JPG
 
  • #136
Here is an overview map of relevant locations leading up to the girls disappearance.

archmap1.jpg
 
  • #137
Here is an overview map of relevant locations leading up to the girls disappearance.


Thank you very much for the photos and the map, gee, at one point they were so close to home. They were just enjoying a joyride around town, not realizing what peril they would soon be in. The guy probably dropped them off somewhere where they met their killer next.
 
  • #138
Hello PS.
The person we suspect is 76 years old, not the man in the theater or car.
The irony is, he lives about 15 minutes from me. The problem is that there is only one person that can put him with the girls that night and that person has refused to become involved due to past threats.

BBM GT....That is a good theory and you have obviously researched this case very thoroughly. But I have always thought that a man in his 20s with the initials of CM was the killer. He may have been the one they were riding in the car with and he was later convicted of an unrelated murder and went to prison for 11 years. What are your thoughts on him as a suspect?

I really hope you are successful in putting something together for LE and help crack this case. Best wishes!
 
  • #139
CM became a suspect because he was identified as being in the Grimes home earlier in the day they disappeared. A search of his Villa Park home turned up a paper with names and phone numbers of two girls from the Grimes family neighborhood, something he had no reason to have. He was convicted of an unrelated murder the following year, but he appealed and was set free after serving 11 years in prison. We have tried very hard to find a definitive link with him to the neighborhood but other than the ID by the neighbor, we could find nothing.

What becomes problematic is that the neighbor ID'd him within this past year by looking at a photo of him from 1958.
That was 57 years ago...hardly enough for police to reopen the case on. CM did live at 72nd and Lowe Ave. at one time but that is still several miles from their home. Besides, he really did not have a motive to kill these girls. He allegedly made unwanted sexual advances to his other victim and through their horseplay suffocated her. Her body was dumped a few miles from where the Grimes girls were found.

Some people still believe that he is the perpetrator, I do not for the reasons stated above.

CM died in 2010.
 
  • #140
Thanks for the pics and map GT. Like I said, I remember the case in real time.

Yes, there would have probably been a cartoon, previews and possibly a newsreel (and even a short subject) before or between the features. I went to many movies (3-10 a week including drive-ins) with my parents in the late 40s through the mid 50s.

If the girls were so wild, I would have expected them to just tell their mother they were going to the theater and then gone off to meet some guys instead.

With all these contradictory sightings, I have to wonder which if any to believe.
 

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
80
Guests online
3,442
Total visitors
3,522

Forum statistics

Threads
632,609
Messages
18,628,951
Members
243,213
Latest member
bleuuu_
Back
Top