Was the Sally’s open or was it in the process of opening? I’ve not heard anything regarding that and if I was open did their employees and/or customers see anything? The registers in any Sally’s that I’ve ever been in have been up front.
IL IL - Lane Bryant Murders, Tinley Park, 2 Feb 2008
- Thread starter SuziQ
- Start date
Also did law enforcement ever ask the public if they saw anything suspicious in the back of the building. Anything back there would stand out more than it would in the front parking lot. It’s also highly visible from the ramp coming off I80.
I made a time line from the info in the previous posts:
10:00- store opens
Between 10:00-10:08- 2 customers enter
10:08- perp enters
{2 more customers enter after perp but not sure when}
10:30- emergency call to target parking lot
{cop 1 responds to the target call but we don’t know what time he arrived at target}
Between 10:38-10:39- suv arrives and parks in front of Lane Bryant
10:44-911 call (36 second duration)
Between 10:45-10:46- suv leaves
10:46.16 cop #2 pulls up (cop #1 already at Lane Bryant waiting for backup; not sure of exact arrival)
**Since these times were not logged by the same device they could be off a little bit I imagine, but it sure is tight. Hopefully the cops did one where all the times were exact.
10:00- store opens
Between 10:00-10:08- 2 customers enter
10:08- perp enters
{2 more customers enter after perp but not sure when}
10:30- emergency call to target parking lot
{cop 1 responds to the target call but we don’t know what time he arrived at target}
Between 10:38-10:39- suv arrives and parks in front of Lane Bryant
10:44-911 call (36 second duration)
Between 10:45-10:46- suv leaves
10:46.16 cop #2 pulls up (cop #1 already at Lane Bryant waiting for backup; not sure of exact arrival)
**Since these times were not logged by the same device they could be off a little bit I imagine, but it sure is tight. Hopefully the cops did one where all the times were exact.
FinePrint
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Yes that's about it. I spent hours comparing and contrasting the time stamps on car 2, NASA enhanced parking lot photos and 911 call.
No doubt in my mind what so ever that car 1 or even car 2 passed the killers vehicle or even captured its image on dash cam.
I posted several dash cam footage from car 2. In one of them it shows car 2 driving on frontage road. As it makes the curve just before turning into the parking lot it passes a small dark SUV which I find incredibly significant.
I have to say every time I watch the dash cam footage and see those 2 cops running up to the door it just gives me the chills. Just knowing seconds before 5 women were exicuted.
I'm not sure if Sally was open for business yet or not. I do remember that night it happened I went back over there and the Sally sign was lighted.
As far as the rear of the building goes I've written a lot of post on that with my many questions. I know that in the break room where they were killed was an exit door to the rear of the building and service road.
No doubt in my mind what so ever that car 1 or even car 2 passed the killers vehicle or even captured its image on dash cam.
I posted several dash cam footage from car 2. In one of them it shows car 2 driving on frontage road. As it makes the curve just before turning into the parking lot it passes a small dark SUV which I find incredibly significant.
I have to say every time I watch the dash cam footage and see those 2 cops running up to the door it just gives me the chills. Just knowing seconds before 5 women were exicuted.
I'm not sure if Sally was open for business yet or not. I do remember that night it happened I went back over there and the Sally sign was lighted.
As far as the rear of the building goes I've written a lot of post on that with my many questions. I know that in the break room where they were killed was an exit door to the rear of the building and service road.
Those posts a few pages back were so informative and helpful. Thanks so much for all that analysis. I think you’re right about the dark suv being on one of the dashcams. There were no reports of a vehicle driving erratically (that I know of) so the perp must have had enough composure to remain calm.
I think the snow piles helped him get away. On a normal day cop #1 could see over there from just about anywhere in the Target lot. If he couldn’t see from where he was when he got the call he could get to a point where he could see within a few seconds. All those snow piles got in his way I bet. Normally they push most of the snow to the back of the Target lot and there is a lot of it because the lot is so large.
I can’t find any articles where they ask if anyone saw anything going on in the rear of the building. To me that is significant just knowing how the landscape is and how visible it is to the I 80 ramp and how busy that ramp is.
I talked to a friend that has managed a few retail stores (not Lane Bryant though). She told me that even though it didn’t have cameras, she’d be shocked if it didn’t have a security system and a theft detection system. She also said that those systems were probably logging the store traffic. They collect the store traffic data to analyze. I think that’s where they’re getting 10:08 from. I’ve read where he was the 3rd person to enter the store that day so it would have been easy to pinpoint.
I’m convinced that the suv was in on it. He probably had lookout(s) in the parking lot and perhaps that why he was so brazen. I’m just not sure how they communicated. You’d think they would know if they were talking via cell phones. Maybe they had burner phones? Are those traceable if you buy them with cash? Also could they have used 2 way radios? Not sure how those work even or it’s even possible. Just a thought of mine.
I think this guy in the photo may be dead since he's stayed out of trouble for 11 years. Since the survivor was able to give them such a detailed description his accomplice may have offed him. People may be scared to come forward if they were in a gang.
I think the snow piles helped him get away. On a normal day cop #1 could see over there from just about anywhere in the Target lot. If he couldn’t see from where he was when he got the call he could get to a point where he could see within a few seconds. All those snow piles got in his way I bet. Normally they push most of the snow to the back of the Target lot and there is a lot of it because the lot is so large.
I can’t find any articles where they ask if anyone saw anything going on in the rear of the building. To me that is significant just knowing how the landscape is and how visible it is to the I 80 ramp and how busy that ramp is.
I talked to a friend that has managed a few retail stores (not Lane Bryant though). She told me that even though it didn’t have cameras, she’d be shocked if it didn’t have a security system and a theft detection system. She also said that those systems were probably logging the store traffic. They collect the store traffic data to analyze. I think that’s where they’re getting 10:08 from. I’ve read where he was the 3rd person to enter the store that day so it would have been easy to pinpoint.
I’m convinced that the suv was in on it. He probably had lookout(s) in the parking lot and perhaps that why he was so brazen. I’m just not sure how they communicated. You’d think they would know if they were talking via cell phones. Maybe they had burner phones? Are those traceable if you buy them with cash? Also could they have used 2 way radios? Not sure how those work even or it’s even possible. Just a thought of mine.
I think this guy in the photo may be dead since he's stayed out of trouble for 11 years. Since the survivor was able to give them such a detailed description his accomplice may have offed him. People may be scared to come forward if they were in a gang.
I am leaning toward LE having a solid lead as a reason for the silence lately. Why else would there be silence, like you said, what would they have to lose at this point unless they are in the midst of something major. Maybe wishful thinking on my part but my gut feeling tells me otherwise.
The rear of the store is very key since I believe he did go out the back and ran toward the front and one of those vehicles picked him up. I do not believe he got into his own car. Number 1, it takes too much time to start the car, put it into gear and drive away. Not to mention what if his car gets blocked in. Someone was already in a car waiting for him to come around the front and that car was already running and in drive.
Like I said before, he had to had lookouts in the parking lot. Someone was making him aware of what was going on outside the store in case any LE vehicles came close to the store, or maybe even more customers. I don't believe it was an accident that he took them to the room where the back door was. He wanted to be as close to that door as possible.
He very well could be dead, maybe he was just one player in a larger operation who became a liability once his description was made public.
The rear of the store is very key since I believe he did go out the back and ran toward the front and one of those vehicles picked him up. I do not believe he got into his own car. Number 1, it takes too much time to start the car, put it into gear and drive away. Not to mention what if his car gets blocked in. Someone was already in a car waiting for him to come around the front and that car was already running and in drive.
Like I said before, he had to had lookouts in the parking lot. Someone was making him aware of what was going on outside the store in case any LE vehicles came close to the store, or maybe even more customers. I don't believe it was an accident that he took them to the room where the back door was. He wanted to be as close to that door as possible.
He very well could be dead, maybe he was just one player in a larger operation who became a liability once his description was made public.
FinePrint
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That is very interesting and informative info about how retail works. I've wondered how they could have come up with the 10:08 timeline.
I've posted this before recently but is its worth talking about again. There is a interview with NBC and detectives which I posted earlier. It shows a detective pointing to a white board and on the white board are timed stamped photos of the NASA enhanced parking lot, only those photos are time stamped 10:08 AM. not the 10:38 - 10:46 photos that were released to the public.
I wonder if that 10:08 still shot shows the small dark SUV somewhere in the parking lot. I'll try to find that NBC interview and post it again for you to get a look at it. I'm not skilled enough on my I phone to do it now. I'll do it tomorrow on my PC.
To me it makes complete sense for him to exit thru the back door. He was right there. Just as you mentioned how they pile up the snow behind Target the same goes for the connected stores containing Lane Brant and Sally, I remember it being piled high back there as well as all the grass areas in the front parking lot as well. It was fairly high and as you've said, surly aided in his escape in all respects.
I've posted this before recently but is its worth talking about again. There is a interview with NBC and detectives which I posted earlier. It shows a detective pointing to a white board and on the white board are timed stamped photos of the NASA enhanced parking lot, only those photos are time stamped 10:08 AM. not the 10:38 - 10:46 photos that were released to the public.
I wonder if that 10:08 still shot shows the small dark SUV somewhere in the parking lot. I'll try to find that NBC interview and post it again for you to get a look at it. I'm not skilled enough on my I phone to do it now. I'll do it tomorrow on my PC.
To me it makes complete sense for him to exit thru the back door. He was right there. Just as you mentioned how they pile up the snow behind Target the same goes for the connected stores containing Lane Brant and Sally, I remember it being piled high back there as well as all the grass areas in the front parking lot as well. It was fairly high and as you've said, surly aided in his escape in all respects.
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Lane Bryant Murders Still a Mystery 8 Years Later
This is the interview showing the white board with the NASA enhanced parking lot photos that I described in my last post. At 0:48 on the tape you will see the white board with the parking lot photos. But look at the time stamp, 10:08 A.M. not the 10:38 A.M. - 10:46 A.M. photos they released to the public. I've tried to see if that dark small SUV is in those photos but they are just not clear enough.
This is the interview showing the white board with the NASA enhanced parking lot photos that I described in my last post. At 0:48 on the tape you will see the white board with the parking lot photos. But look at the time stamp, 10:08 A.M. not the 10:38 A.M. - 10:46 A.M. photos they released to the public. I've tried to see if that dark small SUV is in those photos but they are just not clear enough.
FinePrint
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The camera is from Target parking lot. I think they take still shots once every minute.
We know from the actual NASA enhanced photos released to the public that small dark SUV is not shown at 10:38 but appears at 10:39 and is there until 10:45 but is no longer there at 10:46. So some time between 10:45 and 10:46 it is gone.
10:46:16 car 2 arrives as car 1 is waiting. That is just crazy tight. Like I've said before car 1 had to have seen the killers vehicle leaving as he crossed over Frontage Rd from the Target parking lot into the Lane Bryant parking lot or while entering the Lane Bryant parking lot. We see car 1 sitting in the Lane Bryant parking lot waiting for car 2 at 10:46:16 so how long was car 1 there waiting? When we see car 2 coming down Frontage Rd, we do not see car 1 passing over Frontage Road headed to Lane Bryant which tells me car 1 had been there before 10:46.
If RM places the 911 call at 10:44 A.M. and the call last at least 37 seconds now we are at about 10:45 A.M. he has to shoot 6 women and flee the crime scene. Can that all be done within 60 seconds? Maybe if the left through the back door. I don't think he could have shot 6 women, run out of the break room up through the front of the store, out into the parking lot, got in a car and drove away within 60 to 70 seconds.
Here is the problem. I've seen an interview with LE in which they state "Martha" the survivor said he left through the front door. I need to go back through the interviews and make sure that is what they said and I will post it.
I would just love if they would release car 1 dash cam video...
We know from the actual NASA enhanced photos released to the public that small dark SUV is not shown at 10:38 but appears at 10:39 and is there until 10:45 but is no longer there at 10:46. So some time between 10:45 and 10:46 it is gone.
10:46:16 car 2 arrives as car 1 is waiting. That is just crazy tight. Like I've said before car 1 had to have seen the killers vehicle leaving as he crossed over Frontage Rd from the Target parking lot into the Lane Bryant parking lot or while entering the Lane Bryant parking lot. We see car 1 sitting in the Lane Bryant parking lot waiting for car 2 at 10:46:16 so how long was car 1 there waiting? When we see car 2 coming down Frontage Rd, we do not see car 1 passing over Frontage Road headed to Lane Bryant which tells me car 1 had been there before 10:46.
If RM places the 911 call at 10:44 A.M. and the call last at least 37 seconds now we are at about 10:45 A.M. he has to shoot 6 women and flee the crime scene. Can that all be done within 60 seconds? Maybe if the left through the back door. I don't think he could have shot 6 women, run out of the break room up through the front of the store, out into the parking lot, got in a car and drove away within 60 to 70 seconds.
Here is the problem. I've seen an interview with LE in which they state "Martha" the survivor said he left through the front door. I need to go back through the interviews and make sure that is what they said and I will post it.
I would just love if they would release car 1 dash cam video...
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I've said it before but I'll say it again. Maybe if they would increase the reward amount from $100,000 to $500,000 or even $1,000,000 it would make someone come forward.
Over and over again in LE interviews they say "someone knows". After 11 years and the money they have spent so far in the investigation wouldn't it be worth it?
Instead of the reward money being dependent upon "an arrest" they could increase the money and have it dependent on "the conviction".
This guy can't be that nice of a guy that if you knew him and the crime he commited you would not turn him in for a million bucks!
Over and over again in LE interviews they say "someone knows". After 11 years and the money they have spent so far in the investigation wouldn't it be worth it?
Instead of the reward money being dependent upon "an arrest" they could increase the money and have it dependent on "the conviction".
This guy can't be that nice of a guy that if you knew him and the crime he commited you would not turn him in for a million bucks!
I would love to see car #1 dash cam too.
How quick could an experience shooter fire 6 shots? Is it possible some of the shoots occurred in the duration of the 911 call but have been blocked out?
I’ve been in the TJ Maxx several times before I knew about this. The store isn’t that deep. It’s more long & wide.
How quick could an experience shooter fire 6 shots? Is it possible some of the shoots occurred in the duration of the 911 call but have been blocked out?
I’ve been in the TJ Maxx several times before I knew about this. The store isn’t that deep. It’s more long & wide.
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Don't know if I could go into that TJ Maxx, I guess there would be no reason for me to now as I don't live near there anymore but over the border in NW Indiana.
I just remember that night when I went back over there the lights were on inside the store, LE was inside, there was a tent in front of the door. What really sticks in my mind was that the lighting was kind of yellowish dim and there was large poster style pictures of women models staggered throughout inside the front like displays. Just struck me as being so eerie..
Next time you go there you'll have to look towards the rear left. That is where it happened. I know they expanded that store in the renovation to become TJ Maxx. They moved the Sally further down and took up some space to the left as well. So if you enter the door and walk straight back and look about 10 feet to the left would be where the break room once was.
As far as shooting, well I wouldn't consider myself a firearm expert but I am very experienced in firearms and am a U.S. Army Veteran. The weapon used was a .40 cal, either a Glock or a Smith and Wesson. Not sure which brand as I have read contradictory versions. But it is a semi auto weapon and it would take no time at all to squeeze off those rounds. Just pulling back on the trigger 6 times but of course there would be time spent at aiming at each individual victim. I don't know if there were missed rounds found in the break room but we do know the shell casings were left behind.
I'm only assuming he had a full magazine and perhaps even one round in the chamber. He would not have to take time to change out magazines unless he made several misses, however I'm not sure of the magazine capacity of either of those weapons.
I just remember that night when I went back over there the lights were on inside the store, LE was inside, there was a tent in front of the door. What really sticks in my mind was that the lighting was kind of yellowish dim and there was large poster style pictures of women models staggered throughout inside the front like displays. Just struck me as being so eerie..
Next time you go there you'll have to look towards the rear left. That is where it happened. I know they expanded that store in the renovation to become TJ Maxx. They moved the Sally further down and took up some space to the left as well. So if you enter the door and walk straight back and look about 10 feet to the left would be where the break room once was.
As far as shooting, well I wouldn't consider myself a firearm expert but I am very experienced in firearms and am a U.S. Army Veteran. The weapon used was a .40 cal, either a Glock or a Smith and Wesson. Not sure which brand as I have read contradictory versions. But it is a semi auto weapon and it would take no time at all to squeeze off those rounds. Just pulling back on the trigger 6 times but of course there would be time spent at aiming at each individual victim. I don't know if there were missed rounds found in the break room but we do know the shell casings were left behind.
I'm only assuming he had a full magazine and perhaps even one round in the chamber. He would not have to take time to change out magazines unless he made several misses, however I'm not sure of the magazine capacity of either of those weapons.
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FinePrint
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One more thought I had is I wonder if the cash registers records the times the cash drawer is opened especially if there is no transaction made. According to LE it was after he had a conversation with RM about the delivery that he announced that he was there for a robbery and pulled out the weapon.
The store I worked in several years ago would. The cash drawer would only open if you owed the customer money. If you made a mistake and had to reopen the drawer you had to call the manager for help. The manager would have to enter the transaction as a “no sale” and type in her code & turn her key to get the cash drawer to open. Retailers are paranoid about employee theft. I didn’t work at Lane Bryant though. It would depend on their system.
I ask because I just found this clip. It’s a different version from the one on the Tinley Park site. I assumed that he started yelling at her about the time she was able to make the phone call when I listened to the one on Tinley Park’s site. Now I’m thinking differently. There seems to be something going on in another part of the store if she’s in the breakroom.
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