That’s a really long time to keep up the delivery guy facade. I’d love to watch that clip if you ever run across it again.
IL IL - Lane Bryant Murders, Tinley Park, 2 Feb 2008
- Thread starter SuziQ
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I agree about there being no real accent, he just sounds like an African American male. He was clearly not happy that his plan was disrupted. I think the possible accomplice pulled up at the time they did because they saw the cop pull into the Target parking lot and were telling him they needed to leave.
If he entered the store at 10:08 and took about 10 minutes to announce the robbery, then it's close to 10:20. It probably took about 5 more minutes to get them all under control. The other two customers probably came in a couple of minutes from each other and that took more time and the fact that one fought back, we're talking probably 10:35 or so before all 6 were bound and covered up. That would explain why he was there so long. We cannot be 100% certain Martha didn't report an accomplice as I know we do not know everything she told LE.
If he entered the store at 10:08 and took about 10 minutes to announce the robbery, then it's close to 10:20. It probably took about 5 more minutes to get them all under control. The other two customers probably came in a couple of minutes from each other and that took more time and the fact that one fought back, we're talking probably 10:35 or so before all 6 were bound and covered up. That would explain why he was there so long. We cannot be 100% certain Martha didn't report an accomplice as I know we do not know everything she told LE.
True, we can't definitively confirm that she didn't say there was an accomplice, but I still err on the side of caution in assuming she did. I still think police would have released that information publicly by now (after all, it has been over 10 years; and they are desperate for information, so why not?), but who knows.
I have never thought them not coming out and saying it was a big deal since police keep information close to their vests in all cases. After all they were interested in two cars in the lot while we know he was inside. Really the only reason to park on that side of the lot was Lane Bryant or Sally’s and they probably know who was in and out of Sally’s that morning too.
I wouldn't say it's a "big deal," I just don't see why they wouldn't, especially at this point, after all this time. They literally have nothing to lose with releasing that information at this point.
I can understand withholding it at the beginning of the investigation -- like they did by withholding the survivor, Martha, at first -- but at this point, they've resorted to releasing a 3-D sketch of the suspect because they're desperate for tips, and that was a couple years ago. You would think the release of the accomplice angle would garner tips, and it would be better than releasing nothing, like they have the last couple years.
The police -- like us -- may think there could have been an accomplice, but they can't come out and say that with any sort of certainty because they simply don't know. That's why it hasn't been released -- because there is really no evidence to back it up.
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There are a lot of cases I’ve followed over the years that I’ve wished the police would release more info. I get the importance of holding things close, but it still frustrates me. As far as I know they don’t even know the make, model, color of those vehicles. At this point I think they aren’t relying on the general public’s tips. Too much time has passed. It’s going to take someone that knows him personally imho. I think there is plenty of evidence of an accomplice. I’m 99% sure the suv had something to do with it because of the super tight timeline, and I honestly don’t think he would leave them alone in the store to move the car and then come back. It’s one thing to leave the room. It’s a whole other ballgame to leave the store and return. Also by March 18th the police would have known if those vehicles matched the timeframe of any Sally’s customers.
Once we start assuming what the cops know and don't know, it's a slippery slope. Therefore, I always just try to go by the actual evidence that we do have. I honestly don't believe that the cops would withhold any information -- no matter how small -- they had, if Martha had mentioned an accomplice at all; particularly after all this time had passed. There would simply be no reason to withhold that, or really, anything -- because a personal acquaintance of the accomplice would be just as important as a personal acquaintance of the killer, or both.
Other than the SUV's arrival at the front door at that specific time of the Target camera, I don't really see anything else that points to an accomplice. The killer did everything himself, from entering and casing the ceiling for cameras, to posing alone as a delivery person, to subduing the victims even as they entered the store at different times, to robbing them himself, to executing them. This is what the evidence tells us.
If there was an accomplice waiting for him, the accomplice no doubt would have intervened is some way/shape/form (i.e. calling him on the phone, at least, to give him a heads-up) once he saw others entering the store. And if the plan was for the accomplice to drop him off and simply drive around the neighborhood for an entire half-hour, I just don't see how that would fit a logical plan to pull off any crime -- as it is impossible for the killer and/or the accomplice to know when the crime will be completed or if the killer would need to be picked up (for any reason) in 10 minutes instead of 30, which again, is an eternity for any crime. No criminal would want to stick around for 30 minutes at a crime scene, let alone in a scene where you have multiple victims entering in real-time as you are trying to pull off the crime, by himself with zero backup in-store, no less.
We know he left the room -- and he left the room long enough for RM to free herself from the bindings and call the police. There was a reason why he left the room, obviously, as it was risky yet important enough for him to leave it. If he had left the room in order to fetch an accomplice, we have zero evidence that the accomplice (we should more accurately describe him/her as "getaway driver") ever entered the store, and no evidence that he assisted the killer with the execution and/or robbery. So why would the killer even need to leave the break-room at all, if the accomplice/driver was never planning on assisting him in the store anyway? The driver, essentially (in this scenario), is simply that: a driver. It wouldn't take a prolonged time for the killer to leave the break room simply to check if his ride had arrived yet -- that would take a matter of seconds at best.
So that brings us to the following question: why did he really leave the break-room? In my view, there are other reasons why he left the room other than wanting to flag down an accomplice who was never planning on entering the store in the first place and who wasn't planning on providing any more assistance other than transportation.
Lastly, and most importantly, I firmly believe that the killer would have simply murdered the victims before ever leaving the break room at all -- if all he was looking for was his ride out of the store at that point.
So I believe, the killer left that room to search for the safe/deposits/receipts, as that was his initial goal (with the delivery ruse). Now, if he had an accomplice, that accomplice would have helped him look for that at least (especially after all the victims had been bound, after he arrived at the scene), but again, there is no evidence of that ever occurring.
Once the killer realized his initial goal was an impossibility, he began to snap. Once he realized the safe/deposits was an impossibility and once he realized someone called the police on top of that, he completely lost control.
The SUV is the biggest question mark, but I do think that, between realizing the safe/deposits was an impossibility and killing the victims, he revised his plan to abduct one of them on the fly; and I do believe that he could have moved his own car in that spot after failing to find the safe/receipts, which would better explain the prolonged time it would have taken (minutes instead of seconds) for RM to remove herself from her bindings and call 911. Either that, or the SUV in question wasn't connected to the killer at all, which is a possibility also.
Other than the SUV's arrival at the front door at that specific time of the Target camera, I don't really see anything else that points to an accomplice. The killer did everything himself, from entering and casing the ceiling for cameras, to posing alone as a delivery person, to subduing the victims even as they entered the store at different times, to robbing them himself, to executing them. This is what the evidence tells us.
If there was an accomplice waiting for him, the accomplice no doubt would have intervened is some way/shape/form (i.e. calling him on the phone, at least, to give him a heads-up) once he saw others entering the store. And if the plan was for the accomplice to drop him off and simply drive around the neighborhood for an entire half-hour, I just don't see how that would fit a logical plan to pull off any crime -- as it is impossible for the killer and/or the accomplice to know when the crime will be completed or if the killer would need to be picked up (for any reason) in 10 minutes instead of 30, which again, is an eternity for any crime. No criminal would want to stick around for 30 minutes at a crime scene, let alone in a scene where you have multiple victims entering in real-time as you are trying to pull off the crime, by himself with zero backup in-store, no less.
We know he left the room -- and he left the room long enough for RM to free herself from the bindings and call the police. There was a reason why he left the room, obviously, as it was risky yet important enough for him to leave it. If he had left the room in order to fetch an accomplice, we have zero evidence that the accomplice (we should more accurately describe him/her as "getaway driver") ever entered the store, and no evidence that he assisted the killer with the execution and/or robbery. So why would the killer even need to leave the break-room at all, if the accomplice/driver was never planning on assisting him in the store anyway? The driver, essentially (in this scenario), is simply that: a driver. It wouldn't take a prolonged time for the killer to leave the break room simply to check if his ride had arrived yet -- that would take a matter of seconds at best.
So that brings us to the following question: why did he really leave the break-room? In my view, there are other reasons why he left the room other than wanting to flag down an accomplice who was never planning on entering the store in the first place and who wasn't planning on providing any more assistance other than transportation.
Lastly, and most importantly, I firmly believe that the killer would have simply murdered the victims before ever leaving the break room at all -- if all he was looking for was his ride out of the store at that point.
So I believe, the killer left that room to search for the safe/deposits/receipts, as that was his initial goal (with the delivery ruse). Now, if he had an accomplice, that accomplice would have helped him look for that at least (especially after all the victims had been bound, after he arrived at the scene), but again, there is no evidence of that ever occurring.
Once the killer realized his initial goal was an impossibility, he began to snap. Once he realized the safe/deposits was an impossibility and once he realized someone called the police on top of that, he completely lost control.
The SUV is the biggest question mark, but I do think that, between realizing the safe/deposits was an impossibility and killing the victims, he revised his plan to abduct one of them on the fly; and I do believe that he could have moved his own car in that spot after failing to find the safe/receipts, which would better explain the prolonged time it would have taken (minutes instead of seconds) for RM to remove herself from her bindings and call 911. Either that, or the SUV in question wasn't connected to the killer at all, which is a possibility also.
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We don’t know all the evidence though. Just what has been released. We also can tell that the cops were still interested in those two cars several weeks into the investigation. How do we know he didn’t already have the cash from the register and had opened the safe? He would need the manager to open either so I think she would have been isolated with a gun to her head in that scenario. That’s just my theory though.
The truth is, we know very little of what LE knows. I have not seen any new information coming from TP police in years, other than the new sketch. I have been asking for years why this case has never been featured on any true crime shows such as 20/20 or 48 hours. Even Unsolved Mysteries didn't have it. AMW only had one segment on it.
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Feb 10 2020 rbbm.
The Lane Bryant Shootings: Chicago Mass Murder Still Unsolved More Than 10 Years Later
“Lane Bryant,” she whispers on a police recording.
The gunman’s voice breaks in. He’s agitated and appears to yell, “I’m losing it.”
The phone goes dead. A few minutes later, he shoots the women, one by one in the back of their necks.
It’s one of the worst mass murders in Chicago history, and 12 years later, the murderer is still on the loose, accentuating the pain for the victims’ families.
“You want closure,” McFarland’s brother Maurice Hamilton tells A&E Real Crime. “This person is still out there and could do harm to other people.”
‘Somebody knows’
It’s not for want of tips or effort that the Lane Bryant massacre remains unsolved. Binders of information with more than 7,000 leads and tips fill a room at the Tinley Park Police Department. The F.B.I., Illinois State Police and South Suburban Major Crimes Task Force joined Tinley Park police in the hunt, with a $100,000 award offered for information leading to an arrest.
Local TV and newspapers covered the story for weeks. A sketch of the suspect was widely circulated. And the massacre’s lone survivor provided a detailed description of the triggerman—down to the shade of the light green beads securing his hair.
“There’s a strong likelihood somebody knows,” University of Illinois at Chicago criminology lecturer Marc Buslik tells A&E Real Crime.
The silence could mean the suspect’s circle doesn’t want to recognize him, thinks Buslik, a retired Chicago police commander. Or maybe his associates won’t give him up to authorities, “even for something like this.''
Former Tinley Park Police Chief Steve Neubauer joined the force in 2011 and grappled with the Lane Bryant murder mystery until his retirement in 2018. “It was frustrating. Everyone wanted it solved…it was a horrific crime and really changed the community,” Neubauer tells A&E Real Crime. “Every time you got one step forward, you’d go two steps back. There was no clear motive and a lot of leads.”
''Buslik notes that typically, “all a robber wants to do is get your stuff. The question is, ‘why shoot them?’ My guess—not based on evidence, just experience—is something caused the offender to panic. It could have been he thought he was recognized…it could have been a strange noise.”
The Lane Bryant Shootings: Chicago Mass Murder Still Unsolved More Than 10 Years Later
“Lane Bryant,” she whispers on a police recording.
The gunman’s voice breaks in. He’s agitated and appears to yell, “I’m losing it.”
The phone goes dead. A few minutes later, he shoots the women, one by one in the back of their necks.
It’s one of the worst mass murders in Chicago history, and 12 years later, the murderer is still on the loose, accentuating the pain for the victims’ families.
“You want closure,” McFarland’s brother Maurice Hamilton tells A&E Real Crime. “This person is still out there and could do harm to other people.”
‘Somebody knows’
It’s not for want of tips or effort that the Lane Bryant massacre remains unsolved. Binders of information with more than 7,000 leads and tips fill a room at the Tinley Park Police Department. The F.B.I., Illinois State Police and South Suburban Major Crimes Task Force joined Tinley Park police in the hunt, with a $100,000 award offered for information leading to an arrest.
Local TV and newspapers covered the story for weeks. A sketch of the suspect was widely circulated. And the massacre’s lone survivor provided a detailed description of the triggerman—down to the shade of the light green beads securing his hair.
“There’s a strong likelihood somebody knows,” University of Illinois at Chicago criminology lecturer Marc Buslik tells A&E Real Crime.
The silence could mean the suspect’s circle doesn’t want to recognize him, thinks Buslik, a retired Chicago police commander. Or maybe his associates won’t give him up to authorities, “even for something like this.''
Former Tinley Park Police Chief Steve Neubauer joined the force in 2011 and grappled with the Lane Bryant murder mystery until his retirement in 2018. “It was frustrating. Everyone wanted it solved…it was a horrific crime and really changed the community,” Neubauer tells A&E Real Crime. “Every time you got one step forward, you’d go two steps back. There was no clear motive and a lot of leads.”
''Buslik notes that typically, “all a robber wants to do is get your stuff. The question is, ‘why shoot them?’ My guess—not based on evidence, just experience—is something caused the offender to panic. It could have been he thought he was recognized…it could have been a strange noise.”
I found one small segment on Nancy Grace.
I wish they do familial dna if they haven’t already. Hopefully that will help or we’ll have some new breakthrough with science. Blows my mind he hasn’t slipped up before or after this. I also think Tinley park should let a fresh set of eyes look at it. I think they’ve given up on tips from the general public solving it. Maybe someone that knows him will develop a conscious or get mad at him and turn on him.
Right, but that goes both ways. Meaning, they could have evidence that accounts for those two cars (not being the killer's); and that's why the police haven't said anything about them in years -- because they figured it out, but just never said after the fact. Or they just as easily could have evidence that supports the killer worked alone, but they just haven't released that either. We just don't know -- and we don't know either way. I guess I just always try to abide by the golden rule: you only work with the evidence you have. Of course, the cops have more, but you'll never know it all -- so work off of what you have, and to me, the only thing that points to an accomplice is the SUV, but everything else about the crime points to the killer acting alone. Like anything, it's possible there was an accomplice, but the majority of evidence we know doesn't support that.
I don't think the department has given up on tips, personally. At least, I would hope and expect they didn't. This article states that the police received 58 tips last year alone and investigated every one of them. They still have a tip-line open for the case; they still have the audio readily available online; and they are still offering a $100,000 reward -- and it's not just an award for a conviction (like a lot of rewards), but only for information that led to an arrest.
Lane Bryant Slayings Remain Unsolved After 12 Years
I think I am working with the evidence I have. I have the timeline, location of the suv, the 911 call (killer is talking to someone in background), the fact that the cops were interested in 2 vehicles in the lot well after 10:08, and the fact that he was able to get away very fast. Plus there are other statistics that you can analyze like these people generally work in groups in the area. I think the majority of the evidence supports an accomplice so we will have to agree to disagree!
I think they’re looking for someone that knew him (friend, family, girlfriend, associate) to come forward and not the general public if that makes sense.
The SUV is the only thing I see from the list in this post that supports an accomplice, so yes, agree to disagree.
He had to have a getaway driver, at the very least. There is no way that he was able to get out of the store, run all the way to his own car, start it up and then drive away without being detected. Could he have done everything else alone? Most likely, but he needed help with the getaway.
Even if there was a getaway driver, in my view, it would have been equally "impossible" for the getaway driver to have not been seen by responding officers all the same (in relation to when the call ended). At the end of the day, we're talking a matter of 1 minute here, at best, whether there was a driver or not.
I think either way, the killer was extremely lucky. If he was alone, I'm not sure why his car couldn't have been running for the entire time he was in the store; a full tank of gas would easily be able to do so for those 35 or so minutes.
The more I start to think about it, the more I begin to believe that the killer -- or the getaway driver -- parked somewhere (maybe not directly behind, but somewhere) behind the store. That route (from behind the store) would have been the most logical way how he/they could have escaped without being seen by the responding officers driving up from the Target parking lot and from Frontage Road. That route from behind Lane Bryant leads all the way behind the Target building and connects to Marketplace Drive, essentially serving as a back-road out of the entire complex. I understand that there was a cop who drove south on Harlem Avenue -- where there is fairly clear view of the back of Lane Bryant -- but nevertheless, that would have been the most logical way for the killer and/or driver to be able to escape undetected from the responding officers.
Is it a known fact that the officer coming from Harlem was traveling South, and not North, before arriving at the crime scene?
It’s not a known fact.
We know the police car’s position based off the dash cam (It’s the red line). We know Martha heard a siren 20 seconds into the call from this article(Investigators meet about Lane Bryant murders | ABC7 Chicago | abc7chicago.com). We know about the Doppler effect. We know Tinley Park’s city limits (GIS Consortium - MapOffice™). We also know the time the dash cam cop arrived from the time stamp.
Given all that I am making the assumption that she heard him when he was approaching the store going south on Harlem (blue). He could have also came off I80.
We know the police car’s position based off the dash cam (It’s the red line). We know Martha heard a siren 20 seconds into the call from this article(Investigators meet about Lane Bryant murders | ABC7 Chicago | abc7chicago.com). We know about the Doppler effect. We know Tinley Park’s city limits (GIS Consortium - MapOffice™). We also know the time the dash cam cop arrived from the time stamp.
Given all that I am making the assumption that she heard him when he was approaching the store going south on Harlem (blue). He could have also came off I80.
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I’m also not sure if the target cops dash cam would have caught the suv especially with all the snow piles if it exits on marketplace. I think it’s possible given both cars positions that the suv could have not been seen on the target cops camera.
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