IL - Man in tactical vest taking photos of school shot dead by LE

[KaaBoom]

Lets just talk about the job of the police in this specific case.

Do you take issue with something they did in this incident?

Their job in this case was to respond to a school where someone was acting suspicious and taking pictures.
When they arrived the man ran so their job was to pursue him.
When they caught him he fought with them, and apparently was wearing home made body armor and had what appeared to be a gun.
So their job was now to risk their lives to try to subdue this obviously deranged person who they reasonably and rightfully thought to be armed.

I would imagine the vast majority of the people in that school and neighborhood felt both served and protected when they read about this incident.

The last time I checked there is no law against taking pictures of elementary schools, and there is no law against carrying a toy gun. If there is, please quote it to me. But I don’t think you can do that.

So this was just another case of a man being executed for committing no crime. If they hadn't executed him,
they would have had to let him go, and he could have kept right on taking his pictures.

So if the police were serving and protecting us, then they were protecting us from an apparent law abiding citizen. A pretty weird person, but a law abiding citizen none the less.

Isn’t it amazing how good a job the police do of protecting us from people with toy guns, but when the guns are real (like Burns Oregon) the police won’t get within 10 miles of the perpetrator. If the guns are real, they negotiate from a safe distance. If the guns are toys, they just shoot in one second.

The United States is the only country in the world where being mentally ill, is a capital offense.

 

[Dockins]

The first linked article states a taser was ineffective, and a struggle ensued. If this is correct, fighting with the police is a crime. He may have the right to have an air soft gun, and take photos of a school in homemade body armor, but with those rights come responsibility. You can't have one without the other, IMO.

 

[drjones]

The last time I checked there is no law against taking pictures of elementary schools, and there is no law against carrying a toy gun. If there is, please quote it to me. But I don’t think you can do that.

So this was just another case of a man being executed for committing no crime. If they hadn't executed him,
they would have had to let him go, and he could have kept right on taking his pictures.

So if the police were serving and protecting us, then they were protecting us from an apparent law abiding citizen. A pretty weird person, but a law abiding citizen none the less.

Isn’t it amazing how good a job the police do of protecting us from people with toy guns, but when the guns are real (like Burns Oregon) the police won’t get within 10 miles of the perpetrator. If the guns are real, they negotiate from a safe distance. If the guns are toys, they just shoot in one second.

The United States is the only country in the world where being mentally ill, is a capital offense.

Your argument about whether or not it is legal to take pictures of schools is a red herring. It is entirely unrelated to the reason for the shooting.
The call that police got could have been that a suspicious man in body armor was looking into cars, gesticulating wildly, or any other benign but odd action that is not in and of itself illegal.

But the police are going to come and investigate when they get a call like that from a school, or multiple schools as in this case.
When the police arrive if you explain to them what you are doing, or even refuse to explain what you are doing, you will probably be just fine, they might encourage you to move along, or they might just let you be.
If instead of talking to the police you choose to run, then they will chase you. When they catch up to you if you fight with them, through a tasering, and im sure many warnings and commands, and you are reasonably suspected of being armed with a gun - well then you might just get shot.

You can call them toy guns all you want but they are real functioning non-lethal guns that are crafted to look just like the real thing, and they do. I guarantee you that you could not spot the difference in many of them just sitting on a table, yet you expect the police to identify them while they are in the middle of an altercation.

It is not legal to fight with a police officer. If you do so while wearing body armor and possessing what looks exactly like a real handgun - yeah, good chance you end that day with extra holes in ya.

 

[EllieBee]

My post was not about what police ACTUALLY do, but what I keep reading other posts say police should not be expected to do. If you read through many of the police related threads here, you will see what I mean.

I have read that police should not have to escort mentally ill patients to hospitals, wear their real names on their badges, or place themselves in any type of dangerous situation. Sorry, but that is part of serving and protecting and cops do these things every day. And they do it because it is the job they signed up for.

I have no problem believing this guy was waving what looked like a real weapon and appeared to be a threat to police and innocent citizens. I would imagine this was a justified use of force given the info we have.

My issue was with once again reading "police should not be expected to..(fill in the blank).

Sorry, rant over, but I wanted to clarify my meaning. It was not anti-police.

Their job IS to serve and protect - and make reasonable assessments. It's reasonable, IMHO, when wrestling someone to the ground who was running to avoid arrest and is wearing body armor and carrying a pistol, to believe that's a real pistol and not a fake one. That's a reasonable conclusion, and one they should be able to act on as if it were indeed a real loaded handgun.

 

[EllieBee]

IMHO in the current climate, I'd be as freaked out about the vest, the homemade part could have concealed explosives.

I'd have shot before getting up close enough to find out.

If I were a teacher or administrator at the school, I 'd have been very alarmed, too. The school was probably on lock down, given the current climate regarding school violence.

 

[EllieBee]

Their job IS to serve and protect - and make reasonable assessments. It's reasonable, IMHO, when wrestling someone to the ground who was running to avoid arrest and is wearing body armor and carrying a pistol, to believe that's a real pistol and not a fake one. That's a reasonable conclusion, and one they should be able to act on as if it were indeed a real loaded handgun.

I agree.

 

[Tawny]

Can't say I blame LE on this one. Waiting for more info, but yeah.

 

[bluesneakers]

It is completely unreasonable to expect officers struggling with someone to be able to identify whether or not their gun is an actual gun or an airsoft gun, and it is even less realistic to think they would be able to make any judgement about its weight.

Police are not, and should not be, required to try to wrestle a gun away from someone.

I never said I expected them to do so. I was asking a general question because I don't play with replica guns.

 

[bluesneakers]

I've changed the thread title for clarity.

Sounds like LE was trying to serve and protect to me.

Thanks. I agree. just used the headline.

 

[bluesneakers]

IMHO in the current climate, I'd be as freaked out about the vest, the homemade part could have concealed explosives.

I'd have shot before getting up close enough to find out.

Oh damn. Didn't even think of that. I immediately pictured Robert Dear, the Planned Parenthood shooter. Scary.

 

[bluesneakers]

If I were a teacher or administrator at the school, I 'd have been very alarmed, too. The school was probably on lock down, given the current climate regarding school violence.

It was on lockdown.

Maybe this guy was obsessed with Sandy Hook?

 

[katydid23]

My post was not about what police ACTUALLY do, but what I keep reading other posts say police should not be expected to do. If you read through many of the police related threads here, you will see what I mean.

I have read that police should not have to escort mentally ill patients to hospitals, wear their real names on their badges, or place themselves in any type of dangerous situation. Sorry, but that is part of serving and protecting and cops do these things every day. And they do it because it is the job they signed up for.

I have no problem believing this guy was waving what looked like a real weapon and appeared to be a threat to police and innocent citizens. I would imagine this was a justified use of force given the info we have.

My issue was with once again reading "police should not be expected to..(fill in the blank).

Sorry, rant over, but I wanted to clarify my meaning. It was not anti-police.

BBM

I did say recently that it was unfair to rely upon LEOs to escort mentally ill patients to the hospital. And I did so because cops are not fully trained mental health workers. It takes years of specific training to become experienced and effective when working with the mentally ill. And yet , when someone is in an acute crisis or breakdown, everyone expects the cops to come and deal with it. But if it goes sideways, the cops are blamed and thrown under the bus. People who are so unpredictable that their own families are afraid and unable to deal with them are given over to the police when they are in full crisis mode. And why is that ? Is it because the police have been educated as mental health experts? NO. It is because the police are expected to use brawn, and restraints and physical force to move the patients. And yet, if the patient fights back and goes for a gun or pulls a knife out, then suddenly the cops are confronted with violence and will respond in kind. But people become outraged and say 'how could this have happened? Let's charge the officer with murder for shooting this poor patient..' It is putting the cops in a lose/lose situation.

No one else wants that job, of 'escorting' those in a mental health crisis, because it is too dangerous. The doctors/nurses won't do it. The families can't do it. The EMT's won't do it. The cops are expected to do it for one reason only---they can use force. But the razors edge for them is that they are called on because they can use force, but will be under scrutiny and heavy criticism if they have to use it.

 

[bluesneakers]

BBM

I did say recently that it was unfair to rely upon LEOs to escort mentally ill patients to the hospital. And I did so because cops are not fully trained mental health workers. It takes years of specific training to become experienced and effective when working with the mentally ill. And yet , when someone is in an acute crisis or breakdown, everyone expects the cops to come and deal with it. But if it goes sideways, the cops are blamed and thrown under the bus. People who are so unpredictable that their own families are afraid and unable to deal with them are given over to the police when they are in full crisis mode. And why is that ? Is it because the police have been educated as mental health experts? NO. It is because the police are expected to use brawn, and restraints and physical force to move the patients. And yet, if the patient fights back and goes for a gun or pulls a knife out, then suddenly the cops are confronted with violence and will respond in kind. But people become outraged and say 'how could this have happened? Let's charge the officer with murder for shooting this poor patient..' It is putting the cops in a lose/lose situation.

No one else wants that job, of 'escorting' those in a mental health crisis, because it is too dangerous. The doctors/nurses won't do it. The families can't do it. The EMT's won't do it. The cops are expected to do it for one reason only---they can use force. But the razors edge for them is that they are called on because they can use force, but will be under scrutiny and heavy criticism if they have to use it.

I don't think anyone expected them to escort this man to a hospital. Even if they had caught him.

 

[KaaBoom]

Your argument about whether or not it is legal to take pictures of schools is a red herring. It is entirely unrelated to the reason for the shooting.

The point is that another person who committed no crime has been executed by the police. If they hadn’t killed him they would have had to let him go.

The call that police got could have been that a suspicious man in body armor was looking into cars, gesticulating wildly,

Do you have a source for that information? It’s not in any of the reports that I have read.

 

[bluesneakers]

The United States is the only country in the world where being mentally ill, is a capital offense.

rsbm: Not the only country - I live in Canada and it happens here too.

I don't know about this man though. Was he mentally ill? Is it against the law to take pictures at a school? I have to admit the being around children part affects how I see this situation. I don't know enough to say whether it was right or wrong, but I also think if they did this to protect children... it's different.

 

[EllieBee]

http://www.popcenter.org/problems/mental_illness/

Over the last decade, many police agencies have sought to improve their response to incidents involving people with mental illness, especially emergency mental health situations. These new developments, however, have been targeted almost exclusively at improved handling of individual incidents. Little attention has been devoted to developing or implementing a comprehensive and preventive approach to the issue.

 

[EllieBee]

https://www.nami.org/Find-Support/Family-Members-and-Caregivers/Calling-911-and-Talking-with-Police

Police are trained to maintain control and ensure safety. If you are worried about a police officer overreacting, the best way to ensure a safe outcome is to stay calm. When an officer arrives at your home, say "this is a mental health crisis." Mention you can share any helpful information, then step out of the way. Yelling or getting too close to the officer is likely to make him feel out of control. You want the officer as calm as possible.

- See more at: https://www.nami.org/Find-Support/F...-and-Talking-with-Police#sthash.QdimAUaM.dpuf

 

[pappa rob]

The point is that another person who committed no crime has been executed by the police. If they hadn’t killed him they would have had to let him go.

RSBM
Appearing to be armed and then getting into an altercation with LE while they're trying to disarm him is a crime. There's no way they would of let him go. I don't know what went on but I can't blame LE for doing their job. Now if some other info comes out I might change my mind if appropriate force was used, but he committed a crime.

 

[K_Z]

Authorities declined to identify the man, who was 38 and white, or his hometown at a news conference Wednesday afternoon. They also declined to say how many times the man was shot or where.

District 6 and nearby Beach Park School District 3 put schools on lockdown, but the security measures were lifted by noon.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/subur...lockdown-shooting-st-0107-20160106-story.html

Video of police press conference.

[video]http://www.chicagotribune.com/videos/ct-zion-police-fatal-shooting-video-20160106-premiumvideo.html[/video]

Another source said a total of 7 schools were on lockdown.

 

[K_Z]

Suspect has been identified:

Charles J. Hollstein, 38, of the 2900 block of Willow Lane in Zion, was taken to Vista East Hospital in Waukegan where he was pronounced dead, according to police.

The community is safe and there are no other suspects at-large, according to Zion Police Chief Steve Dumyahn.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/7/71/1230536/zion-elementary-schools-lockdown-shots-fired