GUILTY IL - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, in suitcase in Bali, 12 Aug 2014 *fnd guilty in Bali* #6

[otto]

True. But maybe she’s more concerned with the grandchild over her son?

I see that as a serious problem. If a mother can sit silent while her son suffers malnutrition, how can we believe that she will properly care for that son's child?

 

[gitana1]

I'm guessing that it's a routine process where convicted murderers, who are deported after serving the sentence, are banned for life from Indonesia. Mack won't be the first murderer who is banned from the country for life.

Deportation usually results in a permanent ban in other countries.

"With a Deportation Order, you are permanently barred from returning to Canada."
​

Arrests, detentions and removals - Removal from Canada

One would think. But the government is corrupt. If they think she has access to money, I worry that that could influence a wrong decision. But she's not going anywhere for a long while anyhow!!

 

[gitana1]

I see that as a serious problem. If a mother can sit silent while her son suffers malnutrition, how can we believe that she will properly care for that son's child?

He says that, but maybe she knows he's manipulative and not telling the truth. Regardless, if I had limited funds and it was between saving to get legal help to get my granddaughter and make sure she's out of the grips of her insane mother, or spending it on food for my murderous son, it would be hard, but I would pick the innocent granddaughter.

 

[otto]

I don't know whether we can go so far as to say that the Indonesian government justice system is corrupt, or that Schaefer manipulates people regarding his health. In fact, we know he was sick for months with TB and and then with covid - that's not something he can fake.

Mack and Schaefer were facing the firing squad if they did not confess. Their story was that Schaefer was the evil mastermind and Mack was was the vulnerable child hiding in the bathroom during the unplanned murder. We know that is not true, however we cannot conclude that the justice system is corrupt for their investigative conclusions.

Mack's pregnancy softened the courts perception of her.

 

[Russian Blue]

Whats the status? Has Indonesia sought to ban HM for life?

I am pretty sure that this is because if you have been convicted of a crime and served time there AND you are not an Indonesian citizen native you must leave when you are released from prison.

 

[Russian Blue]

She would probably go to the paternal grandmother who seems like a nice enough woman.

I do not think that Kia (the grandmother) will be getting any kind of custody. Possibly visiting rights. There was probably a very good reason the judge decided not to grant her custody a long while ago when she tried.

 

[al66pine]

Stella. US Citizenship?

…Stella… she will always be a US citizen....

@everybodhi bbm sbm Thank you for sharing. As ^ & other posts said, I agree Stella is U.S. citizen now. Statutory summary below.

"Birthright citizenship in the United States…. automatically, by operation of law.…two situations: by virtue of the person's birth within United States… or because one or both of their parents is (or was) a US citizen….” bbm
"Federal law also grants birthright citizenship to children born elsewhere in the world to U.S. citizens (with certain exceptions), known as jus sanguinis....
“Title 8 U.S.C. § 1409 paragraph (c) provides that children born abroad after December 24, 1952, to unmarried American mothers are U.S. citizens, as long as the mother has lived in the U.S. for a continuous period of at least one year at any time prior to the birth.” bbm sbm Birthright citizenship in the United States - Wikipedia

As always, welcoming comment or correction, esp'ly from our legal professionals.
______________________________
O/T. For a deep historical dive into US dual citizenships, from American Revolution to current, a 2004 law review article by U. of VA. Law School Professor: Dual Nationality: TR’s “Self-Evident Absurdity”

 

[al66pine]

Renouncing/Relinquishing* US Citizenship?

….The US doesn't recognize the renouncing of US citizenship She can always get a US passport because she will always be a US citizen....

@everybodhi bbm sbm Seems you have "hands on" IRL experience w immigration & citizenship issues, so thank you for sharing & prompting me to read further.
On specific point of renouncing US citizenship" I see info to the contrary. Per below, imo US citizens can lose US citizenship, although I have no reason to think Stella would be inclined to do that (~12 yrs from now). my2ct

Not addressing issue about Stella’s dual citizenship in Indonesia, now or in future.
As always welcoming comment or correction, esp’ly from our legal professionals.

8 U.S. Code § 1481
"(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—..." bbm

There follows a list of 7 actions, by which a US citizen may lose US citizenship. Summarizing them below.
"(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state" post age 18.
"(2) ... taking an oath.... of allegiance to a foreign state..." post age 18.
"(3) serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if..." at war w US or serving as officer, post age 18.
"(4) (A)...performing the duties of ... employment under the government of a foreign state..." post age 18.
"(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States..."
"(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality..."
"(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States" bbm
^ https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
* There are technical differences between renouncing & relinquishing US citizenship.
See Relinquishment of United States nationality - Wikipedia
ETA from US Dept of State website: Dual Nationality

 

[Russian Blue]

Me too. What Heather really fears is that in Chicago Stella will learn the truth about her mother and father murdering her grandmother.

I think HM at this point is more worried about being tried and convicted for conspriacy to commit murder right now. If she gives up rights to Stella she loses her biggest bargaining chip. She also will have an even lesser chance on getting her hands on any of the remaining money.

 

[otto]

Stella. US Citizenship?
@everybodhi bbm sbm Thank you for sharing. As ^ & other posts said, I agree Stella is U.S. citizen now. Statutory summary below.

"Birthright citizenship in the United States…. automatically, by operation of law.…two situations: by virtue of the person's birth within United States… or because one or both of their parents is (or was) a US citizen….” bbm
"Federal law also grants birthright citizenship to children born elsewhere in the world to U.S. citizens (with certain exceptions), known as jus sanguinis....
“Title 8 U.S.C. § 1409 paragraph (c) provides that children born abroad after December 24, 1952, to unmarried American mothers are U.S. citizens, as long as the mother has lived in the U.S. for a continuous period of at least one year at any time prior to the birth.” bbm sbm Birthright citizenship in the United States - Wikipedia

As always, welcoming comment or correction, esp'ly from our legal professionals.
______________________________
O/T. For a deep historical dive into US dual citizenships, from American Revolution to current, a 2004 law review article by U. of VA. Law School Professor: Dual Nationality: TR’s “Self-Evident Absurdity”

That sounds right. That's fairly standard in many countries. Children are granted the citizenship/ nationality of the mother, as that can be proven. Father's nationality cannot be proven with an unmarried mother except through DNA.

Mack, unmarried in prison for violent murder, has no right to give her unborn child citizenship of the country where the prison baby was born. She and the father have USA nationality, and that's what the prison baby is granted.

Indonesian law regarding barring criminals from re-entering the country after deportation is similar to countries like Canada. Mack was delusional thinking that because her born daughter was in Bali, she could leave her daughter behind, return to the USA for 6 months, and then emigrate to Indonesia to live happily on her mother's inheritance.

Mack viewed her prison time as a joke. Thankfully she hit the wall hard with being escorted off the plane in handcuffs while her daughter thought she was on "vacation" with mommy.

 

[Russian Blue]

I think her paternal grandmother Kia Walker should be considered again. She lost her first attempt when Stella was a baby living in a notoriously violent prison. SMH

MOO

I think there is a very good reason Kia Walker was not granted custody. I think the same reasons it did not happen the first time will still be there if and when she tries again.

 

[Russian Blue]

Yeah giving them that money was very wrong and unnecessary. But he had no control over Stella being housed with her mother in prison, after birth.

I agree, I followed this case closely at the time and as I recall HM was given the choice to have Stella in prison with her for up to 2 years. The Cook County judge did not have jurisdiction over Stella in Bali. Or HM for that matter.

 

[Russian Blue]

“In court, Mack’s attorney objected to a request by the prosecution for Mack’s psychological records. The prosecution said the records would show a series of attacks on Von Weise by Mack, showing her violent behavior and that Mack poses a danger to the community.

The judge said he would allow the records.”

Heather Mack Arrested On Federal Conspiracy And Obstruction Of Justice Charges In Mother's Murder, After Release From Prison In Indonesia

Finally all those stories HM has told of how horrible her mother was to her may be put to rest. I wonder which attorney was fighting this request? Do you think Mr Claypool might feel a little blindsided by HM? Do you think he would have been going on about how HM has already done her time if he knew about the conspiracy to commit murder that started in the US?

I doubt he was too blindsided. He has to pick a strategy and the time served is a place to start. I cannot imagine that he did not research this case and knows the twists and turns for the HM drama murder.

 

[Russian Blue]

So Vanessa Favia is the “family attorney”? Who retained her and when?

Favia was retained at the time of the murder along with the other lawyers when Tommy and HM were arrested. Favia was focused against the rights of HM as a mother and for Stella.

 

[Curious Me]

...Mack viewed her prison time as a joke. Thankfully she hit the wall hard with being escorted off the plane in handcuffs while her daughter thought she was on "vacation" with mommy.

All MOO. Heather was a delusional thinker all her life because she got away with horrible behavior for her entire life. She always had some money, not brought up in any poverty. Sheila spoiled her maybe out of hope, and maybe out of fear, but she wanted a good relationship with that mean nasty girl. Yes, then even right after they killed Sheila and left her in a suitcase, she was ready to take off delusional thinking they could run off. Oh, you are so right, prison was a joke to Heather-- hooking up with lovers, nothing was off limits with her little bit more money than others, dancing and they actually rewarded her, getting to keep Stella there and have all the others help. I was beginning to think she had a solid deal with the Devil, she got away with so much.

It does my heart good to see the sh-t finally hit the fan. It was a big wrecking ball that finally has hit Heather's life. Finally, this may be the karma she deserves. Still, I can see her ruling things in a US prison. She's got some kind of edge that helps her survive. I'd call her a shape shifter, but to me she never reaches any kind of classy act. She can't pull that over because she's a no class thot. (I learned that word on this thread. )

 

[everybodhi]

Renouncing/Relinquishing* US Citizenship?
@everybodhi bbm sbm Seems you have "hands on" IRL experience w immigration & citizenship issues, so thank you for sharing & prompting me to read further.
On specific point of renouncing US citizenship" I see info to the contrary. Per below, imo US citizens can lose US citizenship, although I have no reason to think Stella would be inclined to do that (~12 yrs from now). my2ct

Not addressing issue about Stella’s dual citizenship in Indonesia, now or in future.
As always welcoming comment or correction, esp’ly from our legal professionals.

8 U.S. Code § 1481
"(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—..." bbm

There follows a list of 7 actions, by which a US citizen may lose US citizenship. Summarizing them below.
"(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state" post age 18.
"(2) ... taking an oath.... of allegiance to a foreign state..." post age 18.
"(3) serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if..." at war w US or serving as officer, post age 18.
"(4) (A)...performing the duties of ... employment under the government of a foreign state..." post age 18.
"(5) making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the United States..."
"(6) making in the United States a formal written renunciation of nationality..."
"(7) committing any act of treason against, or attempting by force to overthrow, or bearing arms against, the United States" bbm
^ https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
* There are technical differences between renouncing & relinquishing US citizenship.
See Relinquishment of United States nationality - Wikipedia
ETA from US Dept of State website: Dual Nationality

I know someone who married and naturalized, it took him 10 years and becoming fluent with the language but he got citizenship.
A few years and a divorce later, he's living in California and travels on a US passport.
He took an oath of allegiance to naturalize, and renounced, but not before a US consulate, it was in the Singaraja immigration office in Bali.
So there's some wiggle room before they take away your US citizenship.
That's why it says, "may lose citizenship, not "will".

ETA: this is a bit OT since it's been established that none of the parties to this crime have Indonesian citizenship.

 

[everybodhi]

All MOO. Heather was a delusional thinker all her life because she got away with horrible behavior for her entire life. She always had some money, not brought up in any poverty. Sheila spoiled her maybe out of hope, and maybe out of fear, but she wanted a good relationship with that mean nasty girl. Yes, then even right after they killed Sheila and left her in a suitcase, she was ready to take off delusional thinking they could run off. Oh, you are so right, prison was a joke to Heather-- hooking up with lovers, nothing was off limits with her little bit more money than others, dancing and they actually rewarded her, getting to keep Stella there and have all the others help. I was beginning to think she had a solid deal with the Devil, she got away with so much.

It does my heart good to see the sh-t finally hit the fan. It was a big wrecking ball that finally has hit Heather's life. Finally, this may be the karma she deserves. Still, I can see her ruling things in a US prison. She's got some kind of edge that helps her survive. I'd call her a shape shifter, but to me she never reaches any kind of classy act. She can't pull that over because she's a no class thot. (I learned that word on this thread. )

HM bought herself a comfortable prison life in Bali with her mama's money, she will be in federal prison in the US which is still a step up from a state facility.
But having Stella in prison with her for a couple years after giving birth wasn't special treatment. Every woman prisoner in Indonesia has that option.
A documentary was made by two women filmakers about it last year, it won best documentary at the Indonesian film festival, it was funded by the Swiss and Norwegian embassies and filmed in a Java prison.
In Australia, women can have their children in prison with them for up to five years in every state except South AU.
If she had a baby in a US prison, she would be lucky if she was in one that removes the shackles while she gives birth.

 

[al66pine]

....But having Stella in prison with her for a couple years after giving birth wasn't special treatment. Every woman prisoner in Indonesia has that option.
A documentary was made by two women filmakers about it last year...

@everybodhi sbm bbm Yes, seems HM being able to keep Stella in prison w her {{ETA: for part of the sentence}} was not because HM was a "special snowflake." Apparently that's the norm.

Thanks for linking to documentary which I'll stream soon. Mothers & babies packed in so tight. Good grief.

Sad, sad sad.

 

[everybodhi]

BBM

I don't know whether we can go so far as to say that the Indonesian government justice system is corrupt, or that Schaefer manipulates people regarding his health. In fact, we know he was sick for months with TB and and then with covid - that's not something he can fake.

Mack and Schaefer were facing the firing squad if they did not confess. Their story was that Schaefer was the evil mastermind and Mack was was the vulnerable child hiding in the bathroom during the unplanned murder. We know that is not true, however we cannot conclude that the justice system is corrupt for their investigative conclusions.

Mack's pregnancy softened the courts perception of her.

I've never met an Indonesian that has any hesitancy to say all facets of government is corrupt here.
They're famous for it.
Just for instance, in the cities, the cops periodically stand in the road, backing up traffic and collecting money from cars for any reason they make up. Everyone smokes in Indonesia and maybe your car has no smokers but the cop can tell you the car smells like cigarettes so you must pay, standard a million rupiah, $70, for a westerner in the car, or go to the station. (Smoking is legal everywhere including restaurants and hotels). Everyone just pays. A good driver will pull over for coffee if traffic is backed up, it may be an hour sitting at the coffeeshop but will save you 70 bucks.

Hobbling Indonesia’s anti-corruption body

Ask any Indonesian about their country’s most pressing problem and more likely than not the answers you’ll get are “the economy” and “corruption”.

This is with good reason. Indonesia ranks 102 of 179 on Transparency International’s 2020 Corruption Perception Index, falling over four years from a previous ranking of 90, underscoring the problem with widespread graft. Corruption among judges, prosecutors and senior police officers has undermined the right to equal protection under the law.

 

[gitana1]

I do not think that Kia (the grandmother) will be getting any kind of custody. Possibly visiting rights. There was probably a very good reason the judge decided not to grant her custody a long while ago when she tried.

The child wasn’t under the jurisdiction of the US courts, IIRC. So the court had no power to order an infant deported from Indonesia.