IL - Should woman be acountable for their children's death by abuse?

[Nocgirl]

Liana Sandoval's case was extremely sad and disgusting because:

1) Mom helped discard her body. Liana was thrown into a canal tied to a rock like a piece of garbage.

2) This all happened in front of her 3 year old older sister who also had the daylights beat out of her but was alive. That is absolutely appalling.

3) CPS received numerous complaints from the girls extended family and father, who failed to remove the girls from the home, and eventually closed the case. CPS ignored all physical abuse, statements from the kids, and even ex girlfriends that called CPS and said Juan is abusive and beat them while pregnant

Here are the supreme court oral arguments that does a quick rundown on the tragedy and why the death penalty for Juan Velasquez was warranted and returned:

http://www.supreme.state.az.us/argument/07Summaries/May 24 CR-04-0361.pdf

The mother, Virgina Venegas who is a disgusting and does not even diserve to be a mom-was sentenced to life in prison. By the way she was pregnant with Juan's baby when she was arrested.

CPS wound up being sued by Liana and Isabella's father, in a one of a kind lawsuit because the 2 caseworkers each were actually held accountable for part of the verdict.

Here are the faces of evil, you can see Juan Velasquez and Virginia Venegas's prison pictures by going to www.azcorrections.gov and under inmate search, enter their numbers 189628 and 193812. They have removed Virginia's pic for some reason it appears.

 

[Laneymae]

Yes, I agree that a woman should be held responsible for abuse her boyfriend/husband inflicted if she failed to intercede or call for help. The woman in the story below should have been sentenced to life without parole, but got only 22 1/2 years. The judge gave her 22 1/2 years rather than 30 because she showed remorse at her hearing. Give me a break!!

The woman, Julie Ann Meier, was sentenced to 22 1/2 years for failing to stop the abuse her boyfriend (Gonsioroski) inflicted on his daughter.

Jordan was scalded to death in a bathtub.

Snip~Gonsioroski had testified that Jordan was in the bathtub as punishment for putting a nacho chip in her underwear.

At his plea hearing this spring, Gonsioroski said that it was Meier who kept Jordan in the bathtub until she began to bleed and her skin sloughed off like tissue paper.

For her part, Meier told the court in March that Gonsioroski had insisted Jordan stay in the tub for 10 minutes, even though the girl was crying that it hurt. Authorities said the water could have reached a temperature of 148 degrees Fahrenheit two minutes after the tap was opened.

Meier said she had pleaded with Gonsioroski to call the police, but he refused and kept the phone from her because he was afraid he would be arrested. She tearfully admitted that she didn't seek help for the girl.

Instead Meier, a trained medical assistant, gave the vomiting girl Tylenol and treated her with a sunburn spray to soothe her. Jordan was sent to bed, where the medical examiner determined she died two to three hours later, before Meier finally called 911. A pathologist said that Jordan wouldn't have died if she had received proper medical care.

Full story: http://www.startribune.com/467/story/1319002.html


Snip from article below: Life with her father was supposed to be better for Jordan Gonsioroski. Court documents say in the last year she was repeatedly punished with spankings, sets of jumping jacks and having her mouth scrubbed out with soap for 20 minutes at a time.

http://wcco.com/topstories/local_story_199010104.html

This was an absolutely horrific death that this young girl suffered and there was no one to protect her. It has been called one of most disturbing child abuse cases in Minnesota. I have shed many tears for this little girl.

Laney

 

[Mygirlsadie]

I agree with you! I'm not perfect by any means but I am very aware of the way anybody treats my children. Even if a clerk at the grocery store takes a mean tone to any one of my children i'm right there stepping up to the plate.

Unless you are totally incapacitated to do anything - a mother should fight to the last breath for the safety of her child. Period. Now, whether it should be law, or just something you'd assume - I don't know. Self preservation is pretty strong, and although I know my self preservation takes a back seat to my daughter's safety, it probably isn't something you can legally mandate to put yourself in harm's way to protect another. Sure it is the right thing to do, but is it the legal thing? I don't know.

Certainly it is if you are condoning the abuse. Yes.

 

[Amraann]

LanieMae...
I read your post and it made me wonder .... How does a judge decipher between actual remorse and simple self pity (which IMO is what most about to be convicted exhibit)

 

[Laneymae]

LanieMae...
I read your post and it made me wonder .... How does a judge decipher between actual remorse and simple self pity (which IMO is what most about to be convicted exhibit)

Amraann, I know what you mean. I believe she felt remorse for only herself, yet the judge bought her sob story.

With time off for good behavior, she will only do 14 years. That's the injustice!

 

[EZRA]

I think that these mothers should do time. I was abused as a kid and my mother never stepped in to help me yet every time my dad went after her I stepped in between them to stop him and took the beating for her. If my husband EVER tried to do anything to our kids I would be right there. I would take the beating then I would be out of there with the kids no matter if we had to live in a box. There is no way I would allow them to live with the fear I lived with. I cannot understand how anyone allows a child to be hurt in anyway and does not do anything to stop it no matter what the consequences to themselves are. You just do it and you take what comes, a child cannot defend themselves and you are there to do it for them even if they are not your child. If I see a child being hurt in public I step in every time just to stop it - I don't care what the person says to me or how they react to me -if it's bad I call 911 immediately. I'd rather it be a false alarm or a parent just having a really bad day whatever and the police intervene than me just walk by and let it go. You never know. No one ever stepped in and helped me no matter how many times I looked at people with begging eyes to help me. I've called Child Services on my neighbor and they got help and she eventually came and thanked me, I mean it took 2 years of her being extrememly mad at me but they got her the help she needed after her husband walked out and she just fell apart and started abusing the kids verbally and physically out of frustration. I just don't understand it. I have 5 kids and some days I have to take a walk around the block but I would never hurt them I will just never understand these people. Sorry for the rambling!!!

 

[bakerprune64]

I think that these mothers should do time. I was abused as a kid and my mother never stepped in to help me yet every time my dad went after her I stepped in between them to stop him and took the beating for her. If my husband EVER tried to do anything to our kids I would be right there. I would take the beating then I would be out of there with the kids no matter if we had to live in a box. There is no way I would allow them to live with the fear I lived with. I cannot understand how anyone allows a child to be hurt in anyway and does not do anything to stop it no matter what the consequences to themselves are. You just do it and you take what comes, a child cannot defend themselves and you are there to do it for them even if they are not your child. If I see a child being hurt in public I step in every time just to stop it - I don't care what the person says to me or how they react to me -if it's bad I call 911 immediately. I'd rather it be a false alarm or a parent just having a really bad day whatever and the police intervene than me just walk by and let it go. You never know. No one ever stepped in and helped me no matter how many times I looked at people with begging eyes to help me. I've called Child Services on my neighbor and they got help and she eventually came and thanked me, I mean it took 2 years of her being extrememly mad at me but they got her the help she needed after her husband walked out and she just fell apart and started abusing the kids verbally and physically out of frustration. I just don't understand it. I have 5 kids and some days I have to take a walk around the block but I would never hurt them I will just never understand these people. Sorry for the rambling!!!

And a well put ramble at that EZRA.

 

[Laneymae]

Ezra, great post!

 

[southcitymom]

LanieMae...
I read your post and it made me wonder .... How does a judge decipher between actual remorse and simple self pity (which IMO is what most about to be convicted exhibit)

That's always the question, isn't it? No one is really able to see into another's heart, so I think how we respond to whether someone is remourseful or self-pitying depends mainly on our perception of the world at large.

 

[imthemom]

I think that these mothers should do time. I was abused as a kid and my mother never stepped in to help me yet every time my dad went after her I stepped in between them to stop him and took the beating for her. If my husband EVER tried to do anything to our kids I would be right there. I would take the beating then I would be out of there with the kids no matter if we had to live in a box. There is no way I would allow them to live with the fear I lived with. I cannot understand how anyone allows a child to be hurt in anyway and does not do anything to stop it no matter what the consequences to themselves are. You just do it and you take what comes, a child cannot defend themselves and you are there to do it for them even if they are not your child. If I see a child being hurt in public I step in every time just to stop it - I don't care what the person says to me or how they react to me -if it's bad I call 911 immediately. I'd rather it be a false alarm or a parent just having a really bad day whatever and the police intervene than me just walk by and let it go. You never know. No one ever stepped in and helped me no matter how many times I looked at people with begging eyes to help me. I've called Child Services on my neighbor and they got help and she eventually came and thanked me, I mean it took 2 years of her being extrememly mad at me but they got her the help she needed after her husband walked out and she just fell apart and started abusing the kids verbally and physically out of frustration. I just don't understand it. I have 5 kids and some days I have to take a walk around the block but I would never hurt them I will just never understand these people. Sorry for the rambling!!!

About a year ago at a local grocery store, a customer called the police on a man kicking a two year old boy in the isle because he was crying. Well guess what it was the mother's boyfriend. Thankfully that little boy was taken away, hopefully never given back. I hope more people step in and do this. She probably saved his life.

 

[sherri79]

this article listed a few women. Felicia Gordon http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/03190701cld.pdf
by page 3 you fave the details of the child's murder and moms attempt to cover it up.

Arlene Haines http://www.wfrm.net/wfrm_net%20Home%20Page_files/news%2007-05.htm
scroll down to 07/18/05 and u see she only got 48 days to 23-1/2 months in jail, followed by 18 months probation for endangering the welfare of children. Judge John Leete also ordered Arlene Haines to perform 100 hours of community service and to make more than $1150 in restitution for prisoner transport plus court costs and fees.

Kathy Cecil http://www.freekathy.org/timeline.shtml
this is a web site to free her and the time line speaks of the child covered in bruises and how she lied to police to protect her man.it also says after her son was killed her man left to buy pot and she did nothing til he returned.

other cases are too old for me to get news paper storys from. i could only find sites dedicated to setting these "moms" free.

 

[CyberLaw]

Tesslyn O' Cull is the "poster child" for abuse. She suffered a horrible, horrible death. That will always stick with me, I cried when I read what she went through in her 3 short years.

They never did determine the actual cause of death. She had too many injuries.

The BF got the death penalty. He was featured in a clothing campaign, until it was protested. How disgusting.

The so called Mom, is in prison for life with no Parole. The meth heads and others knew that Tess was being abused. The meth heads were more interested in their drugs. The cops did come, Tess was under a blanket and waved to the cops and they left. This is not what I would call due dilligence.

I had a friend, her husband was unstable and violent. The first time a bruise was on the butt of the child, she made arrangements to escape. I helped her for the sake of her being O.K., but especially the child. She told me, I have a choice to stay, a choice to be beaten, but I brought this child into this world, promised to be the best Mom I could and my child did not make the choice to stay and be harmed. She was abused as a child by the step Dad, and went through heck and back. Now she is a single Mom, doing well, and she got the child away from the environment before any further harm could be inflicted upon the child. She did not want her child to grow up like she did. She wanted the pattern of abuse to stop. The child is happy, healthy, lots of friends, sweet, kind and considerate. That would not be the case if she stayed. She put the child before herself, which is what a parent should do.

 

[j2mirish]

Hello all what I have to say may be slightly off on a different tangent but so many times I hear when cases are being judged about child molesters or ppl that beat others I hear that they had themselves been through such a thing, Hell I was raped, sexually molested over 10 years with violent beatings but NEVER EVER will I inflict that on anyone else, the fact that I have been through this makes me know what it feels like and I sure as hell will NOT inflict it on an innocent. Lawyers, judges or such are using this plea as a total cop out and it should be removed from being used. Victims do not become perpetrators.

There i'll get off teh soap box now LOL :boohoo:

Hugs Karin:blushing:

didnt sound like a soap box at all- I never went thru what you did, but hearing someone who has, believes the SAME way I do, makes me feel like I am not on my own high horse--I could never understand the story--I was beaten, abused..etc...so I did it to my kids...WTF ?

 

[imthemom]

I have a little story about something that happened in Pekin, IL where I work, it is kind of a small town but has big time meth problem. A lady that I work with goes to a church where her pastor and his wife adopted a severely abused little girl when she was two years old. This is her story. After 911 was called, the fire department arrived first to find a lifeless two year old. She had been kicked some many times she was almost dead. The fireman wanted to kill the man standing there who obviously did this, her mother's boyfriend. The little baby was taken to the hospital where she was cut open from the top of her chest to her pubic bone. She had severe internal injuries and they thought she would die. She had to have reconstructive surgery on her genitals and had a leg bag for years because of probable sexual abuse. She had to have eye surgery because she had been smaked in the head every day all day. The child welfare asked this couple to come and see this little girl everyday and bring a toy and just sit by the bed and hold her hand and tell they loved her, nothing else, they were not asking them to adopt her. They said she had known only pain her whole life and when the doctors and nurses came in they just caused more pain and she was terrified. They didn't know if she would live of not. She did live and this couple ended up adopting her, they were a family with 3 boys so this little girl was the joy of their life dressed in such frilly little dresses, she would come up with squinty eyes because she still could not see well and ask your name. She slept in the fetal position for the longest time. She is a teenager now and can sing beautifully. The man and her mother were never charged with anything because they simply said they could not prove who did it. The men who found her that day had to be sent away for counseling. Later the BF was arrested in Peoria for breaking a kids wrists but I am sure he didn't get much. The injustice in this country is sickening, how could they not be charged he almost killed her.

 

[SadieMae]

Unless you are totally incapacitated to do anything - a mother should fight to the last breath for the safety of her child. Period. Now, whether it should be law, or just something you'd assume - I don't know. Self preservation is pretty strong, and although I know my self preservation takes a back seat to my daughter's safety, it probably isn't something you can legally mandate to put yourself in harm's way to protect another. Sure it is the right thing to do, but is it the legal thing? I don't know.

Certainly it is if you are condoning the abuse. Yes.

I feel the same as you do GW. I would do whatever necessary to protect my children...if they system won't help me, I'd let a .45 do it for me. I'll deal with the "legalities" later. JMO.

 

[csds703]

I have a little story about something that happened in Pekin, IL where I work, it is kind of a small town but has big time meth problem. A lady that I work with goes to a church where her pastor and his wife adopted a severely abused little girl when she was two years old. This is her story. After 911 was called, the fire department arrived first to find a lifeless two year old. She had been kicked some many times she was almost dead. The fireman wanted to kill the man standing there who obviously did this, her mother's boyfriend. The little baby was taken to the hospital where she was cut open from the top of her chest to her pubic bone. She had severe internal injuries and they thought she would die. She had to have reconstructive surgery on her genitals and had a leg bag for years because of probable sexual abuse. She had to have eye surgery because she had been smaked in the head every day all day. The child welfare asked this couple to come and see this little girl everyday and bring a toy and just sit by the bed and hold her hand and tell they loved her, nothing else, they were not asking them to adopt her. They said she had known only pain her whole life and when the doctors and nurses came in they just caused more pain and she was terrified. They didn't know if she would live of not. She did live and this couple ended up adopting her, they were a family with 3 boys so this little girl was the joy of their life dressed in such frilly little dresses, she would come up with squinty eyes because she still could not see well and ask your name. She slept in the fetal position for the longest time. She is a teenager now and can sing beautifully. The man and her mother were never charged with anything because they simply said they could not prove who did it. The men who found her that day had to be sent away for counseling. Later the BF was arrested in Peoria for breaking a kids wrists but I am sure he didn't get much. The injustice in this country is sickening, how could they not be charged he almost killed her.

This is a heart wrenching story to be sure. I am glad this child has had a full recovery and thank goodness she is being raised by a family who loves her. Most of these kids are not so lucky.
Stories like this just make me angry.

 

[SadieMae]

About a year ago at a local grocery store, a customer called the police on a man kicking a two year old boy in the isle because he was crying. Well guess what it was the mother's boyfriend. Thankfully that little boy was taken away, hopefully never given back. I hope more people step in and do this. She probably saved his life.

Something similiar happened to my sister, a cop. She was called about a man getting the crap beat out of outside a 7-11. When she got there she was arresting the guys attacking the man, when bystanders kept telling her she's arresting the wrong ones! The men jumped this guy because they saw him kicking and slapping a 4 year old boy (his son). She found out this child had a long history with CPS. The father was ordered out of the house, guess what....druggie mother moved to the house ACROSS the street where he moved and stayed with her husband! My sister was livid!!!! LOL...I was there when she cussed out the social worker!!! She kept in touch with Miguel and sort of adopted him. Got him school clothes and helped him with homework, took him food, etc. He stayed with her frequently. When things were bad at home he called her, she would pick him up. She checked on him every day on her shift & she still has the pictures he drew for her when he was a boy in her office. His mother never cared where he was. Forward 20 years later...he's a cop now! So sometimes, even if the system fails....it only takes one of us to save a child.

 

[CyberLaw]

Wow Sadie Mae, that is a great story. All it takes is one person to care, one person to love, one person to guide, one person to let the child know they have someone.

It can make all of the difference in the world of the child.......and to grow up to be a good person.

Kudos to your sister, she has a great heart.

 

[SadieMae]

My sister says her greatest accomplishment with Miguel is that he paid it forward. He and his wife adopted the little boy they were fostering about 18 months ago. The boy 3 at the time, was removed because of abuse. She said he is a great Dad and she's got a grandson now.

 

[BhamMama]

I'm just very, very thankful that the laws were changed from when I was a kid to what they are now.

In the 70's a domestic call was not high on anyone's list. Oh the cops came but they didn't do anything. They said they couldn't.

My mama took many a beating from my daddy because she stepped in between our daddy and us. It was so bad at one time that my mama made my brother and I a shelter in the back of a closet with a fake wall so we could hide....but we still heard everything.

He was a control freak, writing down the mileage in the car, measuring her shorts to see how short they were. Timing her on trips to the grocery store, giving her a limited amount of money for shopping and keeping the receipts etc.

Things were so different for her generation and I truly think she had no clue how to get out of that situation for a long time. Abuse just wasn't talked about very much....and when it was it was in whispers. Everyone knew, they just didn't speak of it and g-d forbid they step in or inform. It just wasn't done.

My last memory of my father as that 'beast' was the day he was served with divorce papers. He stood out in the front yard in his under pants with a gun under his chin telling mama he was going to kill us, then her and then himself. Mama begged him to kill himself to put them both out of his misery.

She went to her very first job in 20 years the next day with two black eyes but our hell was over.

But now we have different laws and there is so much information about battered spousal abuse and child abuse that it boggles my mind that in this day and age it still happens.

I agree with the pp who stated it was a bunch of bunk that victims of abuse always abuse. That's so not true. I know I was desperate to break that chain and would do anything to protect and cherish my children like I wasn't. My brother chose to not have children at all because he was afraid he'd somehow snap and become like our daddy. Your past is a crutch and too many people use it as such to get out of something they know danged well is wrong. And they can't claim ignorance...ignorance is not knowing....stupidity on the other hand is a totally different concept. That's knowing and not caring.