Deceased/Not Found IL - Yingying Zhang, 26, Urbana, 9 June 2017 #10 *Still Missing*

[tresir2012]

So within only 3 months of the counselling, he kidnapped and murdered Ying Ying.

How often does the counselling service have people confessing they want to murder someone? Did this come out in the trial? I can only remember the person saying they couldn't remember BC. This is odd to me. Do we have detail of this person's testimony?

 

[Laughing]

Counselors at Virginia Tech couldn't get Cho to schedule appointments:

'Troubled': Va. Tech Shooter's Mental Health Records Released

and

University officials have cited privacy laws as the reason they did not exchange information on Cho's mental health history or contact his parents about problems he was having on campus.


(My BIL earned his PhD at Virginia Tech, taught in the classroom building prior to this event.)

JMHO YMMV

 

[Laughing]

Apparently where Federal prisoners awaiting the death penalty do their waiting:

USP Terre Haute

 

[Raptors001]

I just watched the entire therapy video. I thought the intern did a pretty good job, but towards the end I felt he was sizing her up, looking at her sexually... trying to charm her but leering... It's possible that made her uncomfortable.. has everybody seen it?
Link again
https://ecf.ilcd.uscourts.gov/graphics/christensen/Dft Ex 12 Counseling Session UICC.mp4

For the most of the session he was a typical client but it seemed, to me, as though something else moved into his persona as the session progressed... another energy or persona...he started to see her as prey...

Each time he puts his hands together, I think he is lying. My old boss had a twich when he lies. I l know because he would tell me the truth then in front of the customer he lies. His mouth shifts up like a gopher when lies...

 

[kittythehare]

Apparently where Federal prisoners awaiting the death penalty do their waiting:

USP Terre Haute

I wonder if he has a belief that by withholding the location of her remains tht he can somehow prove innocence? Is he that insane?
I wonder whether he will say in relation to the dNA evidence that it was michelle who killed her, really?
Down the line, in many years time after years of legal research is he likely to come up with something as strange as that?
It won't wash but just looking at that building and facilities makes me wonder how he will entertain himself?

from your link
https://www.bop.gov/policy/progstat/1315_007.pdf

 

[kittythehare]

From the Court Listener objections, posted today, it seems as though the prosecution intend to bring YingYing very much to life in penalty phase.
Lots and lots of hours of film footage of her life, her friends, her personality.
I'm glad this is happening, but it will be so very hard for her family.
Defense objecting that they have no time to translate all the exhibits... how do they think they will object to a video from a friend of YY's, I wonder?
Awful.

I'm still thinking of that massive gesture made by YY's fiance when he approached BC's father and shook his hand...

 

[kittythehare]

just an aside.
Remember Judge Bruce?
Urbana federal judge will soon resume full duties after being 'admonished'

 

[Deleted member 158085]

I wonder if he has a belief that by withholding the location of her remains tht he can somehow prove innocence? Is he that insane?
I wonder whether he will say in relation to the dNA evidence that it was michelle who killed her, really?
Down the line, in many years time after years of legal research is he likely to come up with something as strange as that?
It won't wash but just looking at that building and facilities makes me wonder how he will entertain himself?

from your link
https://www.bop.gov/policy/progstat/1315_007.pdf

He’s probably seen enough TV on serial killers to know that authorities will keep coming back to talk to him in prison, he will keep getting attention, if he’s still holding some cards.

 

[kittythehare]

He’s probably seen enough TV on serial killers to know that authorities will keep coming back to talk to him in prison, he will keep getting attention, if he’s still holding some cards.

Good point Jane.
Attention seeking is indeed the underlying theme throughout.

 

[Raptors001]

From the Court Listener objections, posted today, it seems as though the prosecution intend to bring YingYing very much to life in penalty phase.
Lots and lots of hours of film footage of her life, her friends, her personality.
I'm glad this is happening, but it will be so very hard for her family.
Defense objecting that they have no time to translate all the exhibits... how do they think they will object to a video from a friend of YY's, I wonder?
Awful.

I'm still thinking of that massive gesture made by YY's fiance when he approached BC's father and shook his hand...

The boyfriend did well. Flying all the way to America to support his girlfriend that he never married. I wonder if he will ever marry, because everyone knows his true love was murdered.

His future ...

 

[Laughing]

He’s probably seen enough TV on serial killers to know that authorities will keep coming back to talk to him in prison, he will keep getting attention, if he’s still holding some cards.

Agreed, this is a major source of a feeling of power in his life, and feeling powerful seems to matter to BC. Not the emasculated stay-at-home grad school dropout, not the little boy mothered by his wife, but someone able to summon an audience!

Again I say disgusting.

 

[Webthrush]

I think earlier on BC honestly thought that as long as there was no body he couldn’t be convicted of first-degree murder, nor get the DP… now he’s finding out otherwise… it’s possible that as long as he’s a center of attention, including during years of appeals, he'll have nothing more to say. But I assume (though maybe little chance of it) that he can still make a statement during the penalty phase, should he want to ‘come clean’ and tell all.

Meanwhile the Defense team just becomes more disgusting every day, perverting the law over & over! (p.s... someone asked above if they must legally tell any info they get from him about the whereabouts of remains, and I'm pretty certain they're not required to tell ANYthing that BC might tell them -- you can tell your personal lawyer (or priest) in great detail that you've killed 27 women and plan to kill more and they are under no legal obligation to pass that on to authorities, as I understand it -- but, definitely, correct me if I'm wrong or overgeneralizing about that).

 

[tresir2012]

I think earlier on BC honestly thought that as long as there was no body he couldn’t be convicted of first-degree murder, nor get the DP… now he’s finding out otherwise… it’s possible that as long as he’s a center of attention, including during years of appeals, he'll have nothing more to say. But I assume (though maybe little chance of it) that he can still make a statement during the penalty phase, should he want to ‘come clean’ and tell all.

Meanwhile the Defense team just becomes more disgusting every day, perverting the law over & over! (p.s... someone asked above if they must legally tell any info they get from him about the whereabouts of remains, and I'm pretty certain they're not required to tell ANYthing that BC might tell them -- you can tell your personal lawyer (or priest) in great detail that you've killed 27 women and plan to kill more and they are under no legal obligation to pass that on to authorities, as I understand it -- but, definitely, correct me if I'm wrong or overgeneralizing about that).

Yes that was me that asked that. I understand the confidentiality side but in this instance they were in the midst of plea negotiations. For an attorney to be able to represent someone, the client must be honest and tell them everything. So that is why I am asking this. Has he told them everything?

Eg. What if her body is complete and just buried somewhere? Easily retrievable.

 

[tresir2012]

Buried Bodies Case - Wikipedia

I did a bit of digging (no pun intended) and found this case in wiki. It is very interesting. Makes me wonder if the defense do actually know the location of Ying Ying.


"The Buried Bodies Case, also known as the Lake Pleasant Bodies Case, is a mid-1970s upstate New York court case where defense attorneys Frank H. Armani and Francis Belge kept secret the location of the bodies of two women murdered by their client, Robert Garrow, Sr.[1]

Ahead of trial for an unrelated murder, Garrow confessed to his lawyers that he had murdered two missing women and hidden their bodies.[1][2] Armani and Belge found the women's bodies but chose to keep the information confidential.[2] Authorities continued to search for the missing women for months as their families grieved.[1][2] When the public discovered Armani and Belge had kept this information secret, they faced criminal charges and disbarmentproceedings.[2][3] The attorneys claimed they were bound by the duty of confidentiality not to disclose information that could incriminate their client.[3] Armani and Belge were later absolved of any wrongdoing.[4]

The case has become a touchstone in legal ethics courses.[1][4] It highlights lawyers' ethical obligation to keep their clients' information confidential.[5][6] It also showcases the ethical questions that can arise for lawyers related to confidentiality, attorney-client privilege, and clients' self-incrimination.[5] The case has helped shape the development of ethical rules on confidentiality.[4]"

Full details at link.

 

[Webthrush]

Buried Bodies Case - Wikipedia

I did a bit of digging (no pun intended) and found this case in wiki. It is very interesting. Makes me wonder if the defense do actually know the location of Ying Ying.

"The Buried Bodies Case, also known as the Lake Pleasant Bodies Case, is a mid-1970s upstate New York court case where defense attorneys Frank H. Armani and Francis Belge kept secret the location of the bodies of two women murdered by their client, Robert Garrow, Sr.[1]

Ahead of trial for an unrelated murder, Garrow confessed to his lawyers that he had murdered two missing women and hidden their bodies.[1][2] Armani and Belge found the women's bodies but chose to keep the information confidential.[2] Authorities continued to search for the missing women for months as their families grieved.[1][2] When the public discovered Armani and Belge had kept this information secret, they faced criminal charges and disbarmentproceedings.[2][3] The attorneys claimed they were bound by the duty of confidentiality not to disclose information that could incriminate their client.[3] Armani and Belge were later absolved of any wrongdoing.[4]

The case has become a touchstone in legal ethics courses.[1][4] It highlights lawyers' ethical obligation to keep their clients' information confidential.[5][6] It also showcases the ethical questions that can arise for lawyers related to confidentiality, attorney-client privilege, and clients' self-incrimination.[5] The case has helped shape the development of ethical rules on confidentiality.[4]"

Full details at link.

Can’t imagine how they even faced disbarment, the confidentiality provisions are so strong in our perverse system.

An interesting, more complicated case in my state involved the co-conspirator (of a murderess) who confessed to the Defense lawyer what had happened when they were building a case against the lady/wife involved — he felt so guilty about his part though he committed suicide, and the Prosecution argued that confidentiality could only hold for a living person, not for a dead person, and therefore the Defense must now give up its added information — I honestly don’t remember how this was resolved in the courts, though eventually (took years) the lady was successfully prosecuted for murder of her husband (and it seems to me it did involve the release of testimony from the deceased co-conspirator?).

 

[Raptors001]

It's still ambiguous...
It could well be that defendant absolutely refuses to tell his lawyers where he disposed of her but would perhaps give a general area... like, the next county...
It is still possible that he is refusing to disclose the location because he remains fixated on his achievement.. he killed her and his mastermind is better than the fBi , because they could not find him...

He is not specific enuff, I would reject too.

 

[Raptors001]

I think earlier on BC honestly thought that as long as there was no body he couldn’t be convicted of first-degree murder, nor get the DP… now he’s finding out otherwise… it’s possible that as long as he’s a center of attention, including during years of appeals, he'll have nothing more to say. But I assume (though maybe little chance of it) that he can still make a statement during the penalty phase, should he want to ‘come clean’ and tell all.

Meanwhile the Defense team just becomes more disgusting every day, perverting the law over & over! (p.s... someone asked above if they must legally tell any info they get from him about the whereabouts of remains, and I'm pretty certain they're not required to tell ANYthing that BC might tell them -- you can tell your personal lawyer (or priest) in great detail that you've killed 27 women and plan to kill more and they are under no legal obligation to pass that on to authorities, as I understand it -- but, definitely, correct me if I'm wrong or overgeneralizing about that).

There is no written agreement that the defense sworn 'not to tell'. I'm sure if it is career ending for the defense, they would tell. It is the ethical thing to do.

 

[dm92]

I may have asked before, but if Christensen has told defence where the remains are specifically, do they legally have to reveal that or can they keep it to themselves? Anyone know?

Dont know, but my guess would be no: attorney-client privilege. If he's smart (which he's not, but maybe he has been with this issue), he wouldn't tell them exactly what he did and where he did it, but just give an answer like: "based on what i did and where I did it, I cant guarantee that they will be able to find anything."

 

[Webthrush]

Dont know, but my guess would be no: attorney-client privilege. If he's smart (which he's not, but maybe he has been with this issue), he wouldn't tell them exactly what he did and where he did it, but just give an answer like: "based on what i did and where I did it, I cant guarantee that they will be able to find anything."

yeah, there is NO legal obligation for them to tell….

I think it’s almost a given that the Defense DOES know, at least in a general way (and possibly even a more precise way), what BC did with the body — and that is why, when they offered a plea agreement, they used the weaselly words they did.

 

[kittythehare]

off topic, kinda
The Root of All Cruelty?

As a case study of misogyny, Manne considers strangulation—almost always performed by men on female intimate partners—which she describes as “a demonstration of authority and domination,” a form of torture that often leaves no marks.

The limitations of the dehumanization thesis are hardly good news. There has always been something optimistic about the idea that our worst acts of inhumanity are based on confusion. It suggests that we could make the world better simply by having a clearer grasp of reality—by deactivating those brain implants, or their ideological equivalent. The truth may be harder to accept: that our best and our worst tendencies arise precisely from seeing others as human.


(I'm wondering about the mental state and mood of BC while he engaged in killing YY. was he enraged, strategic or cold?)