GUILTY IL - Zachary Irvin, 22, found dismembered, East St Louis, 20 June 2010

[Missizzy]

An interesting (if profane) take on the murder:

http://crimecrawlers.wordpress.com/...rson-you-just-dont-fk-with-that-kind-of-evil/

"East St. Louis’ mayor, Alvin Parks put the public at ease with this statement: ”We continue to monitor the situation to make sure everyone is registering for occupancy permits”. Uh-huh. I imagine the city office has been flooded with homeless people getting their permits....."

more at link (So the rooms have been cleared? Does that remind anyone of the tunnel and underground room which was just covered over in Glendale, AZ after a single officer checked it out?)

 

[Belinda]

Wow, Filly. That was one totally freaky link. I couldn't even finish the whole thing. I wonder how many people have been 'sacrificed' and LE didn't connect it. That was a really frightening thing to read.

 

[tlcya]

Izzy, keep that calendar out. I hate to tell you, but the murder way back that the Senior Iagulli was present for and got immunity for so he'd talk was on June 23, 1971. Summer Solstice.

Just to clarify so nobody thinks we're comparing Satanism to Wiccan's I do know our own well my Religion stole alot of those holiday's and morphed them into our present holiday's. My DD is a Wiccan I think this week anyway. Same kid that told me in Church when she was still fairly young that those Priest wore dresses because they copped it from earth worshipers of whom all were women at that helm. Phew.

O.K. just thought I'd share so people know we're not bashing earth worshiping people. Still this entire thing is freaky, scary.

None taken, I understood the thoughts behind your post and that there was no comparison beign made between my religion, an earth honoring and loving one, and something ugly or satanic.

Blessed Be friend

 

[IWannaKnow]

None taken, I understood the thoughts behind your post and that there was no comparison beign made between my religion, an earth honoring and loving one, and something ugly or satanic.

Blessed Be friend

tlcox - I want to chime in with Filly and state that I have no issue with true peace loving, tree hugging, dirt worshippers, be they Wiccan, Pagan or simply their own brand of spirituality (no offense I hope - I consider myself a tree hugging dirt worshipper - my own personal brand. Rehabilitated Southern Baptist ). I feel that each individual should worship in the way that feels correct for them. In my reading about and around this case, I've noticed that many Wiccans and Pagans do not wish to believe these things go on any more than more "traditional" religions. What is your take? Do evil people capable of depravity exist in all religions? After all - look at the Catholic priests....

 

[tlcya]

tlcox - I want to chime in with Filly and state that I have no issue with true peace loving, tree hugging, dirt worshippers, be they Wiccan, Pagan or simply their own brand of spirituality (no offense I hope - I consider myself a tree hugging dirt worshipper - my own personal brand. Rehabilitated Southern Baptist ). I feel that each individual should worship in the way that feels correct for them. In my reading about and around this case, I've noticed that many Wiccans and Pagans do not wish to believe these things go on any more than more "traditional" religions. What is your take? Do evil people capable of depravity exist in all religions? After all - look at the Catholic priests....

I do not identify myself as wiccan, Christian, or any particular denomination. I would guess pagan fits best for me although I was raised Christian (interestingly enough southern baptist and later lutheran). I feel no one religion has the answers but clues to God/Goddess whatever you want to name it are found throughout all major recognized religions.

I would never presume to speak for the wiccans, pagans, etc. out there but for my own part, I believe evil exists in every single one of us, no matter our sex, creed, race, age, relegion. I feel the potential for horrendous evil is within us all, as is the potential for infinite love and goodness.

I think we all make a choice, every minute of every day which side of our nature to give the reigns over to. I would like to think most people strive to be their best possible selves, while others seem bound and determined to explore every dark depraved corner of themselves.

Part of my distaste for any sort of organized religious worship comes from my belief that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I do not like the idea of anyone pastor, priest or preacher telling me how to talk to my higher power. I don't believe in the necessity of a middle man for that and find the idea of a middle man scary.

Unfortunately, zealots exist. Sometimes using God or religion as an excuse for the bad behavior they already want to engage in. Somehow, in their minds it gets very twisted and they find ways to convinve themselves they are doing as God would have them do.

Sorry, that was the long answer. The short one to the BBM query above is - Yes.

 

[Belinda]

I feel the potential for horrendous evil is within us all, as is the potential for infinite love and goodness.

Respectfully snipped from tlcox above. I totally agree with most of your post and found it to be a very interesting read. But I'm not sure of the sentence I have extracted above. I know that I don't have the potential for horrendous evil in me. I can't even stand to hurt someone's feelings. It's not my choice, it's just the way I am. I think life experience and mental disease can pull people toward evil inclinations, but I don't necessarily think they are built into each person. Religiously, I'm not sure what I am anymore. My daughter says I am agnostic. I have deeply conflicted feelings about the existence of God. One the one hand, I sure hope there is a God, to deal with the evil in this world. On the other hand, I think if there is a God, he would have already dealt with it. The whole Catholic mess has caused me to greatly pull away from any religion.

 

[tlcya]

If there is no potential for evil within you then I envy you greatly Belinda.

I truly believe the capacity for heinous evil is within us all. As is the capacity for infinite love and compassion. I choose to put myself in others shoes. I choose to use empathy when relating to others. I choose to show compassion when someone is struggling.

I could just as easily choose not to see another's viewpoint and discount them. I could choose not to extend empathy and understanding to others, but instead, concern myself only with myself and my wants/needs. I could choose not to give a rat's *ss about another human being and focus only on my own desires. I could choose to discount someone elses right to live because they stand in the way of those desires. But I do not choose to be my worst possible self.

I choose to be my best possible self. I choose every time I do not participate in ugly hurtful gossip. I choose it every time I offer to pay that 47 cents the lady in the check out is short on her purchase. I choose it each time I offer a kind word to someone obviously having a really crappy day. I choose.

 

[IWannaKnow]

If there is no potential for evil within you then I envy you greatly Belinda.

I truly believe the capacity for heinous evil is within us all. As is the capacity for infinite love and compassion. I choose to put myself in others shoes. I choose to use empathy when relating to others. I choose to show compassion when someone is struggling.

I could just as easily choose not to see another's viewpoint and discount them. I could choose not to extend empathy and understanding to others, but instead, concern myself only with myself and my wants/needs. I could choose not to give a rat's *ss about another human being and focus only on my own desires. I could choose to discount someone elses right to live because they stand in the way of those desires. But I do not choose to be my worst possible self.

I choose to be my best possible self. :thumb: I choose every time I do not participate in ugly hurtful gossip. I choose it every time I offer to pay that 47 cents the lady in the check out is short on her purchase. I choose it each time I offer a kind word to someone obviously having a really crappy day. I choose.

:blowkiss: - Thank you for that awesome post tlcox. We are in complete agreement! If only more could do the same....:hug:

 

[Belinda]

Okay, I see where I was missing your point. I am thinking of evil only in the most dire terms. To me, being evil is not participating in gossip or not trying to understand someone else's point of view. To me, evil is killing and dismembering someone you don't even know. Of course, we all have the capacity to not always be the best person we can be, but I don't equate that with evil. I equate that as being human.

 

[Missizzy]

I would have to agree with Belinda about that single sentence but the rest of the post is spot on, TLC. I love IWannaKnow's Reformed Southern Baptist comment. Does that mean we can use the acronym RSB? This is exactly where I am on my path. No one stands between me and God. I have an ongoing conversation.

I feel empathy for Pagans and Wiccans living in parts of the country that are confused or frightened of their beliefs and practices. The lack of understanding is what causes fear. Here in my town, I would say the majority of people practice a melange/hybrid of Buddhism and Wicca with a dash of liberal Judaism and Christianity thrown in. Even our Church of Christ has a lovely sign on the side of it which says "Peace" in arabic. We are blessed to have many multi-faith gatherings which have raised awareness for everyone.

Because I identify with being Christian and Christians are often in the news with some shenanigan or another, I often state to others, "That's not by Jesus". I'm fairly certain that Wiccans feel that way when something like the murder in East St. Louis occurs.

It's really sad to read on the Pagan/Wiccan forum boards that many would like to help the local LE but are afraid to come forward. Some people even say that they are afraid to drive in that area with their Wiccan bumper stickers. That saddens me. We need all the help we can get in figuring out the breadth of these horrific crime. It surely goes beyond one man. As Filly has pointed out, this guy has lived in many many places. He didn't wake up one day, as a grown man, and decide to dismember someone.

 

[tlcya]

Okay, I see where I was missing your point. I am thinking of evil only in the most dire terms. To me, being evil is not participating in gossip or not trying to understand someone else's point of view. To me, evil is killing and dismembering someone you don't even know. Of course, we all have the capacity to not always be the best person we can be, but I don't equate that with evil. I equate that as being human.

I think our diference is in our definition of evil. I do not recognize evil as a spiritual entity. As in a devil or satan. I think the evil is within humanity or at least the seed for it to flourish and grow. I think we are all born with a great potential for both good and evil. Our nurturing or lack thereof, our life's experiences, our culture, etc. all affect which side of our nature we embrace and which we choose to surpress.

 

[Missizzy]

A question. Has anyone ever seen a copy of the Satanic Bible or are parts of it available on the internet? I keep pondering how a group of people would know how to follow certain rituals, use certain signs and to "honor" certain dates. When you think about the Christian Bible, it certainly doesn't give us this information.

I'm wondering if the SB is more of a narrative about a form of "spirituality" or an "instruction manual". How do seemingly unconnected people people come up with the same things over and over?

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Bible[/ame]

".....It is a collection of essays, observations and basic Satanic rituals, and outlines LaVey's Satanic ideology. It contains the core principles of LaVeyan Satanism and is considered the foundation of the philosophy and dogma that constitute Satanism...."

Anton LaVey wrote what we call the SB in 1969 but these dates and rituals have been around for centuries. I'd really like to understand this more.

 

[Missizzy]

Maybe I didn't look hard enough. I did not know about a second book:

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Rituals[/ame]

"The Satanic Rituals is a book by Anton Szandor LaVey published in 1972 as a companion volume to The Satanic Bible. It is a collection of nine rituals with an introductory essay to each. It was published by Avon Books as a 224-page paperback..."

This site also includes the Table of Contents


And there's others by LaVey:

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Witch[/ame]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil's_Notebook



And there's a biography:

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_Life_of_a_Satanist[/ame]

 

[IWannaKnow]

Ironic?

From Missizzy's link to the Satanic Rituals:
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Satanic_Rituals[/ame]

Opening epigraph
“The ultimate effect of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.” — Herbert Spencer

 

[Missizzy]

http://www.churchofsatan.com/home.html

Lots of very interesting information here. I've answered some of my questions. There is definitely an overtone of trickery, humor, showmanship. However, could it be, is it, misconstrued by young people and those who are unstable?

 

[Belinda]

I am all for people living their lives as they wish, but this stuff is really scaring me. This is one subject I am really reticent to read too much about. It scares me that much. I wonder how many people follow this whole satanic gig? Are these people just crazy or is there another facet?

 

[reen]

Just to clarify, this is not a satanic Pentacle. It is right side up; it is Wiccan/Pagan. I somehow doubt it's even associated with the case, the media took this photo, not LE. They could have just picked up on it, because it was prominent in the only room they could see and they saw it as sensationalistic.

Keep in mind, the media shot this through an "open door" in the warehouse. I seriously doubt LE has tightly locked down the room the actual acts took place in, let alone letting media photographers in.

Also, the definition someone posted of Beltane is satanic, not Wiccan. It is a fertility festival (Mayday), a day of new beginnings and prosperity, not a day for killing. There is never a day for killing. We do not and never have performed sacrifices of humans or animals on any Sabbat. It seems satanism is being confused with paganism on some of the posts so I just wanted to clearly separate the two. Carry on!

 

[Belinda]

What is Paganism? I have never heard of that. I could look up the wiki definition, but I would rather hear it from someone who knows.

 

[tlcya]

I call myself paganistic. To me, it means I believe in and acknowledge a higher power in the universe. I believe we are all connected, people, animals, planet, we are all formed of engery and all affect one another as we are all formed from the whole.

Paganism is a more earth honoring religion than say christianity. Pagans do not recognize one true god or religion but rather find their beliefs tied more firmily to honoring our mother the earth as she sustains us. At least that is what it means to this little pagan.

ETA And I agree 100% with the poster who says the pentagram is prbably completely unrelated to the case. It appears the warehouse is the perfect locale for not only the homeless but also anyone who would like a good location to be secretive/safe from prying eyes. The pentagrams perobably have more to do with teenagers sneaking off to perform some sort of "ritual" someone got from a book or online. I do not think it has to do with satanism or ritual murder. I think it was teens, trying to be kewl, trying to outkewl one another and participating in some half baked, unrelated ritual.

 

[Belinda]

So, because the media was able to access the room, are we assuming this is not the room where all of the tools were found, therefore the pentagram would not necessarily be connected?