IMVU and SWs released 2011.01.04

[WhyaDuck?]

Relevant snippets from AY's Jan 19 interview (as transcribed by FaerieB):

JM: Umm, in the second set of search warrants we saw a lot of information about IMVU. And you have an account with IMVU according to these warrants, is that right?

AY: Yeah.

JM: And, um, a lot of the accusations coming out surrounding that are coming from people who talked to police saying that you and Adam and Elisa were participating in deviant behaviour on IMVU. What is the story behind that?

AY: Ahh, I dunno, I dunno where they're getting their information because I have an IMVU account but I've not been on it in..I dunno how...it been a long time and I can't even remember my password on it.

JM: Um, it's not something I was even familiar with before all of this came out.Um, and so when I looked at it, it seems like you can do anything on there. The search warrants indicate that someone in the Baker's home was on the computer doing a mutilation room, or a massacre-type thing which, I guess, raising eyebrows considering what's happened in this investigation. Have you participated in any of those kinds of things on that website?

AY: No, I didn't even know you could. Um, I didn't know you could do stuff like that on that, on IMVU. Ah, I thought it was just a chat, basically a virtual chat, and I know they had like different clubs and rooms, yanno you could go into, but I didn't know they actually could involve stuff like that in it.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6038170#post6038170"]Show Videos And Transcripts - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[ynotdivein]

Technical question here, for anyone who knows: Is there a record of every conversation on IMVU? I mean, if the company was subpoenaed for records, would those records include not only who had set up a given account and where the avatar went etc., but also every keystroke that was ever typed by whoever was using that avatar at the time? (If so, given how many users there are, my mind boggles at the storage capacity needed. But then I'm still amazed by Skype-ing. FWIW.)

 

[Flakes]

I do to some extent. I don't think there is any possible way to know for sure how long AB EB or AY have been on IMVU. It's nearly impossible for anyone to know. Even police or IMVU employees would not be able to figure it out.

The police / employees could find out when they first created an account IN THEIR NAME but that doesn't mean they weren't playing under someone elses account prior to that. Which I am actually fairly certain at least one of the people in this case was doing. ...

I am not so sure this is completely correct.

If a poster on a forum, for instance, has multiple aliases and is a problematic person (abusive, threatening, etc), there are two means (I am aware of) to trace this person and to identify if they have multiple aliases. On the first level their IP address will identify their ISP. On the second level, in investigating this person further to block future aliases, UVB gives a tracking cookie to see if the same log-in is used for different aliases.

Be aware I have seen this used to identify the street address the person is posting from! And the individual person was identified from that office building!

However, this is primarily relevant to web-based stuff. While the IMVU thing does communicate over the same port, it does use a different protocol - ie it is over the web, but uses it's own client and protocol.

So I can't answer for certain if this greater amount of info can be determined about an IMVU user. But I would be thinking there is a very good chance.

Any UBER UBER geeks out there who can further add to this?

 

[Flakes]

Technical question here, for anyone who knows: Is there a record of every conversation on IMVU? I mean, if the company was subpoenaed for records, would those records include not only who had set up a given account and where the avatar went etc., but also every keystroke that was ever typed by whoever was using that avatar at the time? (If so, given how many users there are, my mind boggles at the storage capacity needed. But then I'm still amazed by Skype-ing. FWIW.)

I can't answer your entire question, but thought it relevant to post this comment by IMVU CEO, CaryJay. It was posted on the IMVU site by staff:

"We are deeply saddened by this tragedy and our hearts go out to Zahra Baker’s loved ones.

Online safety within IMVU is a top priority, with an officer of the company overseeing and managing safety concerns. When IMVU was first contacted by the police authorities regarding this case, we gave them our immediate and complete cooperation. In response to a subpoena, IMVU shared all the relevant information available. We continue to standby, available to assist authorities in this investigation.

Out of respect for the ongoing police investigation, we cannot comment further on this case.

- Cary Rosenzweig, CEO of IMVU, Inc."

http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=8782836#8782836

It is in an interesting thread, if you are so inclined as to read it. The roleplaying IMVU users are really feeling the pressure in this current climate, and are keen to demonstrate that they don't participate in or endorse the kind of "roleplaying" that has been alleged in the warrants. Renegade violent rooms for low-level roleplaying is not the kind of thing they support or engage in. I doubt they would even consider it to be "roleplaying" in the true sense.

 

[tlcya]

tyvm for your insights. As a webuser who has nothing but the most basic understanding of the how it all actually works I really appreciate the knowledge of those with more tech savy about such things.

I feel a need to say that IMV is, I imagine, what you choose to make of it. Different people probably use it in very different ways. I feel badly for those who innocently enjoy what IMVU has to offer them and now feel this sense of guilt by association with this story.

I have a question regarding the "roleplaying" not being role playing in the truer sense of the word. Would you say that it is more of a place for persona window shopping? What I mean by that is, people choose avatars, clothes, accessories, activities, personality traits, behaviors when they create their profiles/IMVU lives right? Try them on and walk around in their avatar skins a bit to interact with others doing the same or simply spend an afternoon in a swing yes?

ETA when they find one they really like the feel/fit of, maybe they "live" in that skin awhile?

 

[Flakes]

Thanky you bellyup for all the terrific information on IMVU roleplaying.

Last night I spent hours pouring over IMVU and wanted to post a link to some information I found regarding hierarchies of roleplaying and etiquette on IMVU.

http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpbb2&file=viewtopic.php&p=8147975#8147975

To add to the comment made earlier by bellyup, IMVU roleplaying seems to remain relatively true to the characteristically strict system of classic roleplaying, which values intellect, imagination and eloquence. IMVU's hierarchy includes levels T1-T6. Only T1 & T2 are considered "legal fighting styles". These are complex systems that require a fairly smart cookie to play according to the rules and etiquette. This maintains a level of purity in the game, and also maintains a certain level of participant (on an intellectual and creative level). The T3-T6 are the "non-legal fighting styles". There would be quite a significant divide between the legal and non-legal roleplayers I suspect.

If AB had played a druid character I would have thought it would require a certain degree of deep thought to do it justice. A druid is quite a noble choice of character. I don't know about the other characters in the equation (vampire comes to mind in the case of EB ... though she may have played a human attracted to vampires ... I have no idea). EB presents as a potentially creative individual (or wants to be such), so she may have been able to use that in her character development. However, this said, in the public personas of people in the Zahra Baker case I cannot see the level of intellect that I know classic roleplayers to possess.

I realise that certain religious denominations have aversions to the concept of "fantasy roleplaying", and see it as a sin. I also know that classic roleplaying developed a certain exclusionary reputation, as it was predominantly the past-time of the geeks. Nevertheless, I want to state categorically that I know many ex and current day roleplayers (in highly successful scientific careers and with children of their own) and they are absolutely decent, upstanding community minded people. There is no automatic correlation between roleplaying and violent nature in real life.

 

[Flakes]

...I have a question regarding the "roleplaying" not being role playing in the truer sense of the word. Would you say that it is more of a place for persona window shopping? What I mean by that is, people choose avatars, clothes, accessories, activities, personality traits, behaviors when they create their profiles/IMVU lives right? Try them on and walk around in their avatar skins a bit to interact with others doing the same or simply spend an afternoon in a swing yes?

ETA when they find one they really like the feel/fit of, maybe they "live" in that skin awhile?

In response to the first part of your question ... this is exactly the same as traditional, old-style roleplaying. People would write up notes in books on their character, that described every piece of gear they carried, the clothes they wore, their appearance, and every little detail conceivable about that character ... merely limited by the imagination. What food they would like, allergies and other vulnerabilities their character might suffer from, aptitudes (eg a musical instrument), physical prowess, emotional demeanour, etc. Very complex information. It would be shared with the GM (Game Master) who would control the storyline in the scenario, and also the interactions with animate and inanimate objects in that world. All this intricate info would serve to make the scenarios as real in the imaginations of the roleplayers as possible. Most roleplayers would create multiple characters for different scenarios - perhaps a dwarf in one game, a mage in another, and would become quite attached to these characters, which are as different as two people in real life.

I suspect – be aware I have not been "into" IMVU – that IMVU roleplaying is exactly the same, only you're able to put together a visual image of that character (which classic roleplayers you do as well!). And everyone can see this when they interact with your character. I am aware artists offer services online to illustrate your avatar for IMVU (eg through IMVU and deviant.art).

IMO the greatest difference, and this is IMO regrettable, is that the roleplaying is no longer a physical social gathering, it is now individuals interacting in solitude via a computer. The medium has changed, that is the essential difference.

I am of the opinion that people in real life operate on a daily basis within a variety of personas, that they present to different people and within different scenarios. Consider the writings of Carlos Castaneda which speak of caretaker personalities, and Ingmar Bergman's highly acclaimed film "Persona" for example. That people do the same in IMVU or roleplaying is human nature to me - the desire to be other than oneself, to improve oneself, or to investigate and indulge in a part of oneself on a journey of self-discovery or self-expression (aspirational or deviant makes no difference in this context).

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Here are the rules of this thread:

You can talk about the SWs, AY's interview and the IMVU world in general. If you have been introduced to information which came from playing the game with the Players in this case, then you need to be verified by Tricia before sharing that information.

Regarding AY, yes, he was mentioned in the SWs and he specifically mentioned IMVU in his media interview in the above link. You can discuss his comments to LE or the media about this, but anything else can not be sleuthed as he has not been named a suspect. There is to be NO bashing of AY.

You need to read this post and thank it before before posting on this thread. Mods will be watching this thread closely and those not following the rules will receive a vacation without warning.

BBM

Everyone, please read Daisy's post and thank it before posting in this thread.

 

[Flakes]

daisy7 and WhyaDuck, I did read the rules on the thread, however failed to "thank it" prior to posting (I thought it was a typo for "think"). My bad. So now, I wish to belatedly "thank" it. Please consider that my above posts were all constructed with the rules of the thread in mind, so I request that my "thank" be interpreted as being offered in good spirit prior to my posts.

 

[tlcya]

thanks for answering my query Flakes. RPG and LARP and all that beginning all the way back to the old D * D games my generation was so into, I was never really into, my creative outlets were writing and such. I would ask my son these things but he is so into the roleplaying thing once I get him talking about it he gets very lengthy and animated and my eyes sort of glaze over, lol.

I do understand your point about these new avenues of this sort of exploration having removed alot of the face to face social aspect that the older versions of RP offered. I had a basement full of LARPERs during my sons teens

 

[Aedrys]

tyvm for your insights. As a webuser who has nothing but the most basic understanding of the how it all actually works I really appreciate the knowledge of those with more tech savy about such things.

I feel a need to say that IMV is, I imagine, what you choose to make of it. Different people probably use it in very different ways. I feel badly for those who innocently enjoy what IMVU has to offer them and now feel this sense of guilt by association with this story.

I have a question regarding the "roleplaying" not being role playing in the truer sense of the word. Would you say that it is more of a place for persona window shopping? What I mean by that is, people choose avatars, clothes, accessories, activities, personality traits, behaviors when they create their profiles/IMVU lives right? Try them on and walk around in their avatar skins a bit to interact with others doing the same or simply spend an afternoon in a swing yes?

ETA when they find one they really like the feel/fit of, maybe they "live" in that skin awhile?

That is entirely possible. I roleplay with friends at my house, and I also roleplay online. I know when I make characters, I like to give them characteristics of how I wish I could be or what I think is cool. I also know that there is a line, that there are these characters and then there's me, and that what I is do just for fun and should stay in a fantasy world. Some people don't have that line, and that's where problems arise.

I wanted to clarify that I don't have anything against IMVU. I'm seen World of Warcraft and tabletop roleplaying get hit for being bad for you and such. It's not the world, it's not the medium to be blamed - it's the player, the person who takes it too far. I think in this case, EB and others took their roleplaying way too far, and unfortunately, IMVU was the medium chosen to go too far in. I was referring more to roleplayer mindset, and for the most part, people know not to cross the line and bring fantasy to life in a horrific way. Apparently EB is not one of those people. I have no idea about Aaron, but if he's not involved, all the better for him. I really hope he's not.

Getting back to roleplaying, I have a friend that is exceptionally good at roleplaying. One time, he was yelling, in character, at another of my friends, who was also in character. He was so convincing that we all got quiet and were staring at him, and he had to stop and let us know that he was just messing around. We were almost convinced he had gone too far character wise, but he relieved us by breaking character and letting us know what was happening wasn't real, just roleplay.

Good roleplayers are like that. They know there is a line there, and they have fun while not crossing that line. It's the bad ones, the ones who take it too far that end up in the news and make the rest of us good roleplayers look bad.

 

[Flakes]

...Getting back to roleplaying, I have a friend that is exceptionally good at roleplaying. One time, he was yelling, in character, at another of my friends, who was also in character. He was so convincing that we all got quiet and were staring at him, and he had to stop and let us know that he was just messing around. We were almost convinced he had gone too far character wise, but he relieved us by breaking character and letting us know what was happening wasn't real, just roleplay.

Good roleplayers are like that. They know there is a line there, and they have fun while not crossing that line. It's the bad ones, the ones who take it too far that end up in the news and make the rest of us good roleplayers look bad.

Oh you are spot on Aedrys! It is acting in that context, and goes no further. I have seen the same with some top level actors who I have worked with, who in rehearsals will be dead serious – crying, yelling, flames pouring out their nostrils, and searing hatred in their eyes – then the next second they burst out laughing and jump up and down clapping their hands with excitement, as they love what they're doing so much. This happens particularly at a first reading. In that moment they get to see and feel what the audience will feel. Then they have to get all professional again and go back into character. It is hysterical to watch ... you see they are very special individuals.

Anyone who takes fictional incidents and battles from that illusory roleplaying world (IMVU/roleplaying games/acting) into their reality, or mimics events from that world really needs to address their grasp on reality and the line between the two. This is why I mentioned the Ingmar Bergman film "Persona" in a previous post. The lead character played by Liv Ullman is an actress in a catatonic state, and reality and illusion are seen to be terrifyingly blurred. Another film which captures a similar state of despair of confused realities is David Lynch's "Mulholland Drive" starring Naomi Watts. Yet another example is the method acting practiced by Heath Ledger who we know was deeply disturbed by his role as The Joker. The point I am making is that these portray quite obvious states of mental despair and confusion (if you haven't seen the 2 films it is worth the watch – they are both SPECTACULAR).

So I think IF a person takes something like the alleged "chainsaw massacre" and carries that scenario into real life, then this indicates seriously malfunctional behaviour patterns. Now I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist so I'm not going to try to give a name to these, but the imagination runs wild with potential disorders. And I want to reiterate, clearly, I don't think the medium of roleplaying or IMVU has anything to do with the outcome in this awful case ... it has merely been the facilitator of communication/interaction between certain parties that MAY have ended in the sad end for sweet Zahra.

 

[Alice Ramnit]

I agree (on all accounts) with your post. IF it turns out this was acted out before hand it shows true premeditation to me. What worries me is that even if police get a hold of detailed records it may not even depict the entire situation (again, assuming there was one which we likely won't know until trial at the earliest if ever).

I have to say that if Adam was involved...which I believe he was...I doubt that it was a premeditated act.
I believe that it was likely reactionary or situational.
I don't think that he is 'innocent' in any shade of the imagination...but I doubt that Zahra's murder was pre-planned.

 

[reasypeasy]

So I think IF a person takes something like the alleged "chainsaw massacre" and carries that scenario into real life, then this indicates seriously malfunctional behaviour patterns. Now I am not a psychologist or psychiatrist so I'm not going to try to give a name to these, but the imagination runs wild with potential disorders. And I want to reiterate, clearly, I don't think the medium of roleplaying or IMVU has anything to do with the outcome in this awful case ... it has merely been the facilitator of communication/interaction between certain parties that MAY have ended in the sad end for sweet Zahra.

Absolutely. Millions of people all around the world roleplay on the weekends or after work, then go off the next day to their ordinary jobs as public servants, real estate agents, lawyers, students, fast food workers, irrigation technicians etc, to name just a few of the occupations I've known roleplayers to have. It is not more creepy in itself than enjoying a good detective novel, or dare I say, hanging out here and trying to solve mysteries.

There is that storytelling aspect to roleplaying that attracts people to it. People together develop their characters and they tell a story with them in a dynamic, interactive way. Conflict is often part of what makes a story interesting. Extreme characters, damaged characters, make a story interesting. Obviously people can imagine a far more extreme character than they would ever want to be in real life, and fit that character into a satisfying interesting story. That's pretty much what authors do too. Where would the story of Harry Potter be without Voldemort? Thinking up that character wasn't a sign of anything wrong with the author, but the sign of the desire to tell a cracking yarn.

I've done a fair bit of the face-to-face sort of roleplaying, and I've played characters who are far more extreme than I am. A nightclub singer on the run from the mob, a radical feminist terrorist who enjoyed exploding things, a trouble shooter in a dystopian future world, a paranormal investigator, a vampire lackey, a teenage hillbilly werewolf. All jolly good fun, and nobody ended up dead except for fictional characters who only ever existed in people's imaginations and who "died" in dramatically credible ways as part of telling a story full of tension and action... very much like in any action novel really.

 

[bellyup]

I am not so sure this is completely correct.

If a poster on a forum, for instance, has multiple aliases and is a problematic person (abusive, threatening, etc), there are two means (I am aware of) to trace this person and to identify if they have multiple aliases. On the first level their IP address will identify their ISP. On the second level, in investigating this person further to block future aliases, UVB gives a tracking cookie to see if the same log-in is used for different aliases.
..........
So I can't answer for certain if this greater amount of info can be determined about an IMVU user. But I would be thinking there is a very good chance.

Any UBER UBER geeks out there who can further add to this?

It certainly COULD. The problem is that we are talking about a lot of people that live with each other / use each others computers / pass computers on to people - use each others wifi ( etc) In that capacity it would be hard to verify that so and so was the one logged in playing under a specific character at a specific time. (make sense? )

 

[bellyup]

You can talk about the SWs, AY's interview and the IMVU world in general. If you have been introduced to information which came from playing the game with the Players in this case, then you need to be verified by Tricia before sharing that information.

So we can get verified if we have talked to or played with the case players in this case? How ? TIA

 

[WhyaDuck?]

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In the subject line please put which case you are asking to be verified on.

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Thank you.

 

[WhyaDuck?]

Here are the rules of this thread:

You can talk about the SWs, AY's interview and the IMVU world in general. If you have been introduced to information which came from playing the game with the Players in this case, then you need to be verified by Tricia before sharing that information.

Regarding AY, yes, he was mentioned in the SWs and he specifically mentioned IMVU in his media interview in the above link. You can discuss his comments to LE or the media about this, but anything else can not be sleuthed as he has not been named a suspect. There is to be NO bashing of AY.

Please read this post and thank it before before posting on this thread. Mods will be watching this thread closely and those not following the rules will receive a vacation without warning.

You need to read Daisy's post (quoted above) and HIT THE THANKS BUTTON before posting in this thread. I am seeing people posting here who have not done that yet.

If need be, we will start removing posts from people who have not agreed to the rules of this thread, which are found in Daisy's post.

 

[darnudes]

Where are you getting confirmation that AY has not used IMVU since March of 2010? Are you familiar with every account he made have had access to on IMVU?

As I stated earlier, the one account of Aaron's in IMVU that I know of, has not been used since March 2010, the confirmation was ascertained by me visiting his account and seeing the last log in date. Aaron told me that he didn't have any other accounts - if he was not telling me the truth and does have other accounts I'm not familiar with them. I don't believe Aaron was lying to me but I base this on nothing more than my own gut feelings.