Found Deceased IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #161

[M. Kay]

Is it different now listening to Liberty German's sister, Kelsi,
interviewing Doug Carter about his heading the investigation for three years after the Delphi murders, or what would be 'half-way' in time to solving?

 

[Boxer]

True. I'm simply referring to the information given to the CO he saw at the store. Some are calling it a "witness statement" others a "tip". Either way, there is no way for him to spin it or change it or anything without making it look worse/guilty etc.

“Tip” is just a cover for failed police procedure, trying to get it out of their area of responsibility.

According to his attorney RA called the police to tell them he was on the trail that day and agreed to meet an officer in front of a grocery store.

Then the CO takes some notes and… either gives it to someone who fails to give to detectives, or they themselves fail to escalate the information/interview properly.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I was really excited about the marks on the bullet, but now I'm not. I never followed the Diane Downs case, but I just read Anne Rule's book about it and then read some other articles. If you don't know about Diane, she was convicted of murdering one of her children and attempting to murder the other two. The info about the gun was in the last chapter. I'm not sure if it was in the original book or if it was in an updated edition.

Anyways, during the investigation, her ex-husband gave LE the serial number of a gun he could not find and LE decided that was the gun she must have used. The gun was never found.

So, LE searched her home and found an unfired bullet with marks on it. They compared it to the marks on the casings from the crime scene, said they matched and an expert testified that they matched at trial.

After the trial, her dad ran a classified ad looking for the gun and offered a reward. The guy who had the gun responded. He'd always had it, so it could not have been used in the murders.

This was a LONG time ago, and maybe the examination methods have improved in that time. If not, it seems like total junk science.

Thank you for sharing this example. After his arrest, I asked a couple times if anyone knew of a case in which this type of evidence had been used at trial. I'm not familiar with her case, but I'm going to read up on it. If I understood correctly, Diane's conviction was overturned? Did they ever find the actual killer?

The Innocence Project came out pretty quickly and called it junk science. I agree with them. Again, I'm not saying that he's innocent. I have no idea. I do hope that none of their case is riding on that evidence though.

I dislike circumstantial cases. I hope they have conclusive evidence, like his skin under their nails or something equally damning. I know not all cases can have that, but I'm really hoping this one does. All of the resembles statements are driving me nuts. Can't we just get one clear shot from a surveillance camera? Those statements bother me because he was in the community, working with the public, and none of those people who are now so convinced of who they saw came forward and said so, until there was an arrest.

If you take the bullet "evidence" out of the equation, imo, just as far as what we know so far, things look a lot murkier. I know that we don't have knowledge of what they will present at trial. I hope it's a lot more than we've seen so far. AMOO

Thanks again for sharing Diane's case.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Why on earth would it better on the bridge?

Is there a reason why it wouldn't? It's not a metal bridge. Seems like a valid question to me.

 

[mrjitty]

“Tip” is just a cover for failed police procedure, trying to get it out of their area of responsibility.

According to his attorney RA called the police to tell them he was on the trail that day and agreed to meet an officer in front of a grocery store.

Then the CO takes some notes and… either gives it to someone who fails to give to detectives, or they themselves fail to escalate the information/interview properly.

What may be really important is whether those contemporaneous notes exist, and if so, whether they are admissible.

This may be one of the most critical witnesses at trial.

 

[mrjitty]

Thank you for sharing this example. After his arrest, I asked a couple times if anyone knew of a case in which this type of evidence had been used at trial. I'm not familiar with her case, but I'm going to read up on it. If I understood correctly, Diane's conviction was overturned? Did they ever find the actual killer?

The Innocence Project came out pretty quickly and called it junk science. I agree with them. Again, I'm not saying that he's innocent. I have no idea. I do hope that none of their case is riding on that evidence though.

I dislike circumstantial cases. I hope they have conclusive evidence, like his skin under their nails or something equally damning. I know not all cases can have that, but I'm really hoping this one does. All of the resembles statements are driving me nuts. Can't we just get one clear shot from a surveillance camera? Those statements bother me because he was in the community, working with the public, and none of those people who are now so convinced of who they saw came forward and said so, until there was an arrest.

If you take the bullet "evidence" out of the equation, imo, just as far as what we know so far, things look a lot murkier. I know that we don't have knowledge of what they will present at trial. I hope it's a lot more than we've seen so far. AMOO

Thanks again for sharing Diane's case.

I don't see how you can say whether something is 'junk science' at this level of generality, and without seeing the actual analysis. We don't know anything about the marks.

I think one can at least say that it is unlikely a quality independent lab is doing junk science - especially when they have no dog in the fight. Obviously bad analysis happens. And some types of analysis are controversial - e.g. mixed DNA

 

[Boxer]

Agree

What may be really important is whether those contemporaneous notes exist, and if so, whether they are admissible.

This may be one of the most critical witnesses at trial.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

Thank you for sharing this example. After his arrest, I asked a couple times if anyone knew of a case in which this type of evidence had been used at trial. I'm not familiar with her case, but I'm going to read up on it. If I understood correctly, Diane's conviction was overturned? Did they ever find the actual killer?

The Innocence Project came out pretty quickly and called it junk science. I agree with them. Again, I'm not saying that he's innocent. I have no idea. I do hope that none of their case is riding on that evidence though.

I dislike circumstantial cases. I hope they have conclusive evidence, like his skin under their nails or something equally damning. I know not all cases can have that, but I'm really hoping this one does. All of the resembles statements are driving me nuts. Can't we just get one clear shot from a surveillance camera? Those statements bother me because he was in the community, working with the public, and none of those people who are now so convinced of who they saw came forward and said so, until there was an arrest.

If you take the bullet "evidence" out of the equation, imo, just as far as what we know so far, things look a lot murkier. I know that we don't have knowledge of what they will present at trial. I hope it's a lot more than we've seen so far. AMOO

Thanks again for sharing Diane's case.

Diane Downs's conviction was not overturned and it was never proven that a recovered gun was actually the one her husband had owned.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I get this might seem overly technical - but we have not seen his statements.

e.g the Oct 13 "interview' on the day of the search - where was this interview? Outside RAs house? Was it recorded?

e.g the tip narrative - I am assuming this is notes from the officer - how contemporaneous/accurate were they?

What appears in the PCA is a narrative summary of what the state intends to prove - but we don't know how much wiggle room there is. Hopefully everything was recorded!

The first time he spoke to the officer outside of the local grocery store, RA said it was just the officer taking notes, that it was not recorded.

MOO

 

[TL4S]

The first time he spoke to the officer outside of the local grocery store, RA said it was just the officer taking notes, that it was not recorded.

MOO

I thought it said that RA didn't know if it was recorded. Am I remembering that incorrectly?

 

[CNYDarkStar]

“Tip” is just a cover for failed police procedure, trying to get it out of their area of responsibility.

According to his attorney RA called the police to tell them he was on the trail that day and agreed to meet an officer in front of a grocery store.

Then the CO takes some notes and… either gives it to someone who fails to give to detectives, or they themselves fail to escalate the information/interview properly.

I'm not buying that story at all. But that's what his attorney is suppose to do/say.

 

[CNYDarkStar]

Thank you for sharing this example. After his arrest, I asked a couple times if anyone knew of a case in which this type of evidence had been used at trial. I'm not familiar with her case, but I'm going to read up on it. If I understood correctly, Diane's conviction was overturned? Did they ever find the actual killer?

The Innocence Project came out pretty quickly and called it junk science. I agree with them. Again, I'm not saying that he's innocent. I have no idea. I do hope that none of their case is riding on that evidence though.

I dislike circumstantial cases. I hope they have conclusive evidence, like his skin under their nails or something equally damning. I know not all cases can have that, but I'm really hoping this one does. All of the resembles statements are driving me nuts. Can't we just get one clear shot from a surveillance camera? Those statements bother me because he was in the community, working with the public, and none of those people who are now so convinced of who they saw came forward and said so, until there was an arrest.

If you take the bullet "evidence" out of the equation, imo, just as far as what we know so far, things look a lot murkier. I know that we don't have knowledge of what they will present at trial. I hope it's a lot more than we've seen so far. AMOO

Thanks again for sharing Diane's case.

Funny how some say shell case examination means everything and others say it means nothing...

 

[Boxer]

I'm not buying that story at all. But that's what his attorney is suppose to do/say.

MOO maybe, but seems checkable. the CO will know whether he or she was sent to the grocery store by a dispatcher etc. or hauled down by RA.

 

[Chelly]

“Tip” is just a cover for failed police procedure, trying to get it out of their area of responsibility.

According to his attorney RA called the police to tell them he was on the trail that day and agreed to meet an officer in front of a grocery store.

Then the CO takes some notes and… either gives it to someone who fails to give to detectives, or they themselves fail to escalate the information/interview properly.

Nope. Not credible...my opinion

 

[MistyWaters]

“Tip” is just a cover for failed police procedure, trying to get it out of their area of responsibility.

According to his attorney RA called the police to tell them he was on the trail that day and agreed to meet an officer in front of a grocery store.

Then the CO takes some notes and… either gives it to someone who fails to give to detectives, or they themselves fail to escalate the information/interview properly.

I hadn’t noticed it suggested anywhere that either the CO or DNR failed to escalate the information properly, in fact that’s contrary to MSM published articles.

“The system” referred to below for collecting, known as Pyramid, was facilitated by the FBI due to the vast amount amount of information accumulated pertaining to this investigation (otherwise referred to as tips) and it appears that’s where the breakdown occurred.

BBM

‘Clerical error’ may have led police to overlook Richard Allen in Delphi case

DELPHI, Ind. – Why now? That’s one of the biggest questions surrounding the arrest of Richard Allen, who’s charged with murdering Abby Williams and Libby German in February 2017. It appears a “cler…

fox59.com

“Both an investigative source and The Murder Sheet Podcast said the 2017 interview with Allen was overlooked due to a “clerical error.”

Someone mislabeled or misfiled tip information in the system, which means it didn’t show up in the correct location during a data search. The FBI says its review of the matter showed that FBI employees correctly followed established procedures….”

Delphi investigators are comparing tips with cases across the country to find Libby & Abby's killer

When it comes to connecting the dots to find Libby and Abby’s killer, ISP Detective Jerry Holeman says they are still using every resource available – even two years later.

www.wrtv.com

“Every tip received about Libby and Abby’s murders gets entered into the FBI system called “Pyramid.” That system stores information like names, descriptions and motives so it can be cross-referenced with other tips.

“If they’re calling in something that we already know about, it’s pretty easy for us to compare notes,” Holeman said. “And we don’t delete those – we keep them on file.”….”

 

[Boxer]

I hadn’t noticed it suggested anywhere that either the CO or DNR failed to escalate the information properly, in fact that’s contrary to MSM published articles.

“The system” referred to below for collecting, known as Pyramid, was facilitated by the FBI due to the vast amount amount of information accumulated pertaining to this investigation (otherwise referred to as tips) and it appears that’s where the breakdown occurred.

BBM

‘Clerical error’ may have led police to overlook Richard Allen in Delphi case

DELPHI, Ind. – Why now? That’s one of the biggest questions surrounding the arrest of Richard Allen, who’s charged with murdering Abby Williams and Libby German in February 2017. It appears a “cler…

fox59.com

“Both an investigative source and The Murder Sheet Podcast said the 2017 interview with Allen was overlooked due to a “clerical error.”

Someone mislabeled or misfiled tip information in the system, which means it didn’t show up in the correct location during a data search. The FBI says its review of the matter showed that FBI employees correctly followed established procedures….”

Delphi investigators are comparing tips with cases across the country to find Libby & Abby's killer

When it comes to connecting the dots to find Libby and Abby’s killer, ISP Detective Jerry Holeman says they are still using every resource available – even two years later.

www.wrtv.com

“Every tip received about Libby and Abby’s murders gets entered into the FBI system called “Pyramid.” That system stores information like names, descriptions and motives so it can be cross-referenced with other tips.

“If they’re calling in something that we already know about, it’s pretty easy for us to compare notes,” Holeman said. “And we don’t delete those – we keep them on file.”….”

True. But the FBI did kit take this over until 2/23/17.

 

[MistyWaters]

Some may think the prosecution of RA is weakened due to the lengthy time it took investigators to name him a suspect. I disagree that it will come into play, other than an explanation of exactly what occurred and stating accountability, if any individuals were directly responsible for errors.

I can find no similar example of LE‘s evidence during a murder trial being discounted due to a crime not being solved quick enough, not even if the lax investigative situation resulted in another future crime being committed. In fact this was another case where a senior investigator failed to followup on DNA linking a possible suspect to a prior SA (“I don't know what happened, if it got lost at the sheriff's department, if it got buried on somebody's desk, if it got placed in records division there and just vanished.”) and that same suspect went on to commit a murder. He’s currently facing a death sentence although the trial has not yet occurred.

Overlooked evidence in Hania Noelia Aguilar murder case leads to investigator's firing

The Robeson County Sheriff's Office has fired an investigator following an internal probe into overlooked evidence that might have saved the life of Hania Noelia Aguilar.

abcnews.go.com

 

[MistyWaters]

True. But the FBI did kit take this over until 2/23/17.

Yes but in order for any system to work as intended, wouldn’t it make sense that preceding information taken from interviews, phone calls and such be entered into Pyramid as well? I would think the FBI would be wise enough to realize a data system cannot be reliable if input is only initiated part way through the investigation.

 

[Boxer]

Yes but in order for any system to work as intended, wouldn’t it make sense that preceding information taken from interviews, phone calls and such be entered into Pyramid as well? I would think the FBI would be wise enough to realize a data system cannot be reliable if initial paper files are excluded from input as well.

True and, yes.
MOO this was a witness from the trail. It needed a detective follow up immediately.
Same as the three girls on the trail, the lady who hiked between bridges, FSG, the exterminator, the woman who came to take pictures and the couple under the bridge.
Officers were out conducting check points and asking the public for information. Maybe they were stretched so thin they drafted a CO. COs have extra detective training so the officer should have known he was dealing with a CS principle.
MOO
Carter sounded like he knew this loss of information happened at the 2019 press conference, but the paper note was silk lost and the CO couldn’t remember the name of the person he met with at Sav-a-lot (a guess on my part since it’s near Rite Aid), or really what he looked like. Hectic times.

But they knew there was a man out there that had slipped through their fingers. “That was nearby”
The conference center is next to the Sav-a-Lot.

It was reported that Carter had gotten more and more frustrated and had them start over again from the very beginning.
Maybe they turned over the sheriffs office paper files and found the interview note.

All MOO and glad they started over once again.

 

[MistyWaters]

True and, yes.
MOO this was a witness from the trail. It needed a detective follow up immediately.
Same as the three girls on the trail, the lady who hiked between bridges, FSG, the exterminator, the woman who came to take pictures and the couple under the bridge.
Officers were out conducting check points and asking the public for information. Maybe they were stretched so thin they drafted a CO. COs have extra detective training so the officer should have known he was dealing with a CS principle.
MOO
Carter sounded like he knew this loss of information happened at the 2019 press conference, but the paper note was silk lost and the CO couldn’t remember the name of the person he met with at Sav-a-lot (a guess on my part since it’s near Rite Aid), or really what he looked like. Hectic times.

But they knew there was a man out there that had slipped through their fingers. “That was nearby”
The conference center is next to the Sav-a-Lot.

It was reported that Carter had gotten more and more frustrated and had them start over again from the very beginning.
Maybe they turned over the sheriffs office paper files and found the interview note.

All MOO and glad they started over once again.

True that’s why I wonder if this information was given prior to the discovery of the bodies, so it was merely a tip that RA didn’t sight the girls and so wasn’t able to assist in locating them. His statement became very significant later, especially once the timeline from the video was analyzed.

Regardless it didn’t rise to the top shortly thereafter for reasons unknown but I’m certain we’ll hear more about the reason during RA’s trial. At this time nobody is being held accountable but I suppose that could also change. However all MSM reports seem to indicate the information had been received by the investigative team from DNR.

BBM
“Allen told a state conservation officer he was in the area on the day of the killings, but his report may have been considered unfounded because he said he didn’t see anything, a police source has told I-Team 8. But, after five years and countless interviews, investigators had become frustrated and ordered a review of tips and case files; that was when Allen became a suspect.”

Judge orders Delphi murders suspect Richard Allen to court

INDIANAPOLIS (WISH) — The judge has ordered Richard Allen, the suspect in the 2017 Delphi murders of two teen girls, to appear in person in the courtroom on Tuesday. I-Team 8 expects to get at least a partial glimpse into the Delphi murders investigation if the judge releases the probable cause...

www.wishtv.com