IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

[46daze]

Per a post upthread about CVS closing early on that Monday.

The Delphi CVS closes between 1:30 and 2pm every day for lunch. Note that next Tuesday is a national holiday, hence them showing they are closing at 2pm this July 4th (I'd have to check hours when there isn't a holiday in a few days to prove that). The day the girls were murdered was 2/13/17 which was a Monday. It was Valentines Day eve, which is not a holiday that a store would close early for IMO.

So I'm thinking they did as their hours state... Open from 8am - 1:30, closed (for lunch) until 2pm, then open until 9pm.

View attachment 432001

Source (This is specifically for the Delphi CVS in the event other areas have different hours. I cannot control the way the link comes across, but in order to see that it's indeed Delphi I had searched for, click on your Escape key after you go to the link. Then you'll see that it's Delphi): cvs delphi indiana - Google Search

Isn’t this just the pharmacy hours? The store isn’t closed, but because the pharmacist (not the techs, the actual pharmacist) needs a lunch and is not on the clock, they have to close. (And anyways, Allen wasn’t working in the pharmacy at in February 2017.)

 

[photographer4]

I just wanted to post


I’m shocked the house appears to have been sold so quickly. If he is guilty I think it would be preferable for their neighbours and the community in Delphi for the house to be demolished, so that there is no permanent reminder that he ever lived in that house on that street. I know some of you may believe that this is extreme, unnecessary and possibly a waste of a home. I just hope true crime fans are not driving past it to see it for themselves and it hasn’t become some kind of sick tourist attraction. If a new house was built on the lot it would help the community heal and move forward from the horrific crime that he has allegedly committed. If he is found guilty the focus needs to be solely on remembering Abby and Liberty after the trial, not him and what he may have allegedly done on that tragic day.

I don’t think it matters what they do with the house. Demolish and make a park or whatnot, it can’t erase the stain he will have left on the community if he is guilty. And if he’s found not guilty, the stain may not be as bright but no one will forget he was ever there.

 

[photographer4]

I am not following the case as tightly as I used to, but I wonder if he could even have enough time for posing. In broad daylight.

So there still might be someone else who helped RA because he is into own dark fantasy.

Or, the scene was made to look like something it was not, to cover something else or distract? And maybe, it was less posing and more staging?

This is what I think. Searchers who found the bodies didn’t immediately know what they’d found (a murder scene) per LE in the past. How did they not? The scene was bloody (Witness saw someone leave who was bloody and muddy). They lost a lot of blood at the scene (PCA RL). Missing was one sock and a pair of panties (Recent doc drop).

What was it then that made searchers not know what they’d come across immediately?

I believe he redressed them. Used leaves and mud to cover the blood as much as he could. Placed the bodies in a way that wounds weren’t immediately noticeable. Perhaps face down? Wounds likely were on the front of their bodies so face down would make it possibly not evident at first?

The killer left signatures. I believe the bullet they found was probably one. We don’t know if other bullets were found in a placed manner (in a victim’s hand or something).

I’ll be interested to know what the staging or posing was and why they believe it was done as well as what the signatures were.

Just because one kid was missing panties doesn’t mean there was a sexual assault or anything. It could be part of the staging. Maybe he wanted it to look like a sexual attack gone wrong? Maybe it was meant to appear that the kids bravely fought off a sexual attacker? Why? I don’t know. Maybe that would seem to make more sense than a basic kidnapping? I can’t imagine what goes on in the mind of someone who commits this stuff. I am only hoping there was no sexual assault at this point. A sleuther can dream, right?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Could anyone explain it better to me how LE can seize items during a search? Doesn't the warrant only cover certain items, like clothing, electronics, weapons, etc.? How broad can they make the warrant? So like the fabric straps, motorcycle cover, headbands, and plastic water bottle... where do they fit within the confines of the warrant?

My first thought was: "They just came in took all of his stuff!!!" lol
I believe that one of the problems defense has with the SW. However, McL explains it all away in his objection:
Pg 103-108 = State's Objection to Suppression Motion

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

 

[ArianeEmory]

I’m shocked the house appears to have been sold so quickly. If he is guilty I think it would be preferable for their neighbours and the community in Delphi for the house to be demolished, so that there is no permanent reminder that he ever lived in that house on that street. I know some of you may believe that this is extreme, unnecessary and possibly a waste of a home.

Leaving aside that I do think it’s extreme and unnecessary, how do any equity holders in the house get paid back?

I think it’s pretty widely accepted that RA’s wife is a victim here, so doesn’t she deserve any proceedings of the sale of the house?

 

[ArianeEmory]

What an odd thing to take from him as evidence. When I saw the word headbands, I wondered if they meant hairbands instead.

There were two women/girls who lived in the house (RA’s wife and daughter, although IIRC the daughter no longer lived at home— but may have left belongings behind). They might just want to make sure they all belong to the household, and were not “trophies”.

I have like a zillion kinds of headbands. (Both cloth and rigid.)

 

[TL4S]

My first thought was: "They just came in took all of his stuff!!!" lol
I believe that one of the problems defense has with the SW. However, McL explains it all away in his objection:
Pg 103-108 = State's Objection to Suppression Motion

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

So I can see the headbands falling under the "head covering" admission by RA. But the straps, motorcycle cover, and water bottle I'm still not sure about. Maybe the fabric straps are for electronics (cord wraps)?

Btw, number 19 of that document says the search began at 5pm and ended at 7:09pm. Fwiw.

 

[MistyWaters]

My first thought was: "They just came in took all of his stuff!!!" lol
I believe that one of the problems defense has with the SW. However, McL explains it all away in his objection:
Pg 103-108 = State's Objection to Suppression Motion

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

This is a link containing only the docs relative to the SW.

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/state-motion-to-suppress.pdf

 

[Megnut]

Per a post upthread about CVS closing early on that Monday.

The Delphi CVS closes between 1:30 and 2pm every day for lunch. Note that next Tuesday is a national holiday, hence them showing they are closing at 2pm this July 4th (I'd have to check hours when there isn't a holiday in a few days to prove that). The day the girls were murdered was 2/13/17 which was a Monday. It was Valentines Day eve, which is not a holiday that a store would close early for IMO.

So I'm thinking they did as their hours state... Open from 8am - 1:30, closed (for lunch) until 2pm, then open until 9pm.

View attachment 432001

Source (This is specifically for the Delphi CVS in the event other areas have different hours. I cannot control the way the link comes across, but in order to see that it's indeed Delphi I had searched for, click on your Escape key after you go to the link. Then you'll see that it's Delphi): cvs delphi indiana - Google Search

IF he wasn't working alone, IF abduction was the plan, theoretically he could've accomplished his leg of the sick relay on his lunch hour.

Why would he agree to kidnap two girls? His own deviance, fast cash, debt settling, extortion....

Consider:

He's provided a phone, the same one that shows up at KAK's kitchen, scrubbed.

His task, to corral the girls at the end of the bridge, force them at gunpoint to a waiting vehicle with an as-yet unnamed driver.

Twisted mission accomplished, someone else takes it from there, driving the captive girls to a pre-arranged location. Cabin in the woods, basement bunker, abandoned building/warehouse/house where they could be kept for a short or long time.

It could've been slick as clockwork.

Slick and sick, but if he'd gotten the girls away from the park, he may have been successful in relocating Libby's phone too, giving others occasion to destroy it.

At most there'd be a description of a guy and maybe Libby's shoe....

Those girls could still be held somewhere, long game, with no way out.

IMO Libby and maybe Abby too realized what was happening and made that harrowing decision don't let them take you to the secondary location. IMO at least one of them was going to try to bolt for the direction of the last person they saw, the lady who had turned back, who was already getting in her car, driving away, unaware.

IMO it turned deadly then and there because RA knew he'd been seen by them, there was no turning back (for him). Gun jammed, he was left with his knife.

Who in that circle of CSAM has access to another location? Could it have been the CPS building itself?

I think there was a master plan.

Jmo

 

[FrostedGlass]

So I can see the headbands falling under the "head covering" admission by RA. But the straps, motorcycle cover, and water bottle I'm still not sure about. Maybe the fabric straps are for electronics (cord wraps)?

Btw, number 19 of that document says the search began at 5pm and ended at 7:09pm. Fwiw.

I wonder if they could slip those items in if they appeared to be directly connected to evidence from the the murder scene. I don't know...

If the neighbors saw LE searching the property early in the afternoon, I haven't yet found a warrant for that. Have you seen any other search warrant?

There seems to be some confusion from the news report regarding the "execution" of the SW. The document shows it was executed @ Oct 13, 19:09 (7:09 pm). I assumed that meant it was served at that time. OR could it mean it was done by that time?

 

[CGBSpender]

What is your idea there?
Wouldnt a sheriff be thrilled to make an arrest in this case?
Maybe they were not quite ready to pull the trigger.

My idea is that something other than the ballistics (because that was concluded on the 19th) made them feel like they had to take him in right away on the 26th, and they couldn't wait until leadership was back in the area (if I recall correctly TL and I think also DC were out of town...like one on vacation, and one at a conference or something when they took him in...hence why the press conference had to be pushed out to the Monday after...so key people could travel.) It had to be something major in my mind, because the timing of the 26th seems unplanned and inconvenient. If they could have waited a couple of days even to take him in, it would have been more convenient for LE involved...but I don't think they felt like they could.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I wonder if they could slip those items in if they appeared to be directly connected to evidence from the the murder scene. I don't know...

If the neighbors saw LE searching the property early in the afternoon, I haven't yet found a warrant for that. Have you seen any other search warrant?

There seems to be some confusion from the news report regarding the "execution" of the SW. The document shows it was executed @ Oct 13, 19:09 (7:09 pm). I assumed that meant it was served at that time. OR could it mean it was done by that time?

#19 in the link I posted indicates the SW was executed at about 5pm and completed by 7:09. The thing with information from “neighbours” and such is that it’s not always factual information. I would put far more weight on information contained in legal docs than media reports sourced from anonymous people.

 

[sandy_80]

will they release the name of that person who discovered the missing report which solved the case ?
cause there is NO one who deserves credit except them..

 

[CGBSpender]

What gets me is that in one of the documents (I cannot go back to find it now), NMcL expressly states that only ONE copy of discovery is allowed to the defendant. And he ate it.

It's worded kind of funky, but here is how I interpreted the document. Defense counsel gets one copy of everything unredacted, and they are not permitted to make copies of those documents. The State can provide copies to the Defendant, investigators, experts etc.... so long as certain things in those copies are redacted. So I'm guessing RA ate his own redacted copies.

JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

#19 in the link I posted indicates the SW was executed at about 5pm and completed by 7:09. The thing with information from “neighbours” and such is that it’s not always factual information. I would put far more weight on information contained in legal docs than media reports sourced from anonymous people.

Yes, but on pg 13, Liggett signs that he executed it at 7:09 pm. So which is it? I always thought executed meant served.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, but on pg 13, Liggett signs that he executed it at 7:09 pm. So which is it? I always thought executed meant served.

Executed can also mean “carry out”. So just guessing but on that particular document the 7:09pm time might indicate a time when the SW is no longer in effect as it’s been executed?

 

[Megnut]

I wonder if they could slip those items in if they appeared to be directly connected to evidence from the the murder scene. I don't know...

If the neighbors saw LE searching the property early in the afternoon, I haven't yet found a warrant for that. Have you seen any other search warrant?

There seems to be some confusion from the news report regarding the "execution" of the SW. The document shows it was executed @ Oct 13, 19:09 (7:09 pm). I assumed that meant it was served at that time. OR could it mean it was done by that time?

Possibly one homeowner gave them permission to walk the property. Waited for an intense search until the warrant arrived.

Jmo

 

[CGBSpender]

I doubt he could consent at the moment. She may have had to file some sort of motion if the house is in both their names.

One of the docs released this week said something about him having given her a POA to act on his behalf for financial matters, but he had not executed a POA with respect to health care matters...hence why his lawyers were asking the court to order his medical records be released to them...because his lawyers were not certain he was legally competent to sign a health care POA at this time that would allow them to access the documents they need.

JMO

 

[Megnut]

It's worded kind of funky, but here is how I interpreted the document. Defense counsel gets one copy of everything unredacted, and they are not permitted to make copies of those documents. The State can provide copies to the Defendant, investigators, experts etc.... so long as certain things in those copies are redacted. So I'm guessing RA ate his own redacted copies.

JMO

I hope he's hungry. That's a lot of pages to r̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶e̶a̶t̶ ̶r̶e̶a̶d̶ ̶e̶a̶t̶ oh you know what I'm trying to say.

Jmo

 

[CGBSpender]

SBMFF

What an odd thing to take from him as evidence. When I saw the word headbands, I wondered if they meant hairbands instead. It's been reported that the killer of Sarah Everard, Wayne Couzens, bought hairbands before killing her. They can apparently be used to maintain an erection.

But headbands? Hairbands makes more sense to me in a heinous crime like this.

Source for my hairband example:

Wayne Couzens bought hairbands that he may have used "in order to maintain an erection" heard the Old Bailey as horrific details of the case that shocked the country were laid bare.

The shocking declaration was made during the Judge's sentencing remarks where the "unspeakably grim" nature of the ex-Met Police officer's actions against Sarah Everard were read out.

Wayne Couzens' depravity laid bare - including hoarding hairbands used in attack

It is still not known when exactly the 48-year-old killed Sarah Everard, but it was revealed in court that the he had made a series of purchases that were used in sick kit during the shocking assault on her

www.dailystar.co.uk

Here's one such post talking about that in Sarah's thread here on WS:

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...21-life-sentence-16.591254/post-17148811[/URL

I wonder if either victim was missing a ponytail holder / hair tie, and LE just hasn't put that info in any of the documents publicly filed?

JMO