IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #164

[Justice101]

This is what I think. Searchers who found the bodies didn’t immediately know what they’d found (a murder scene) per LE in the past. How did they not? The scene was bloody (Witness saw someone leave who was bloody and muddy). They lost a lot of blood at the scene (PCA RL). Missing was one sock and a pair of panties (Recent doc drop).

What was it then that made searchers not know what they’d come across immediately?

I believe he redressed them. Used leaves and mud to cover the blood as much as he could. Placed the bodies in a way that wounds weren’t immediately noticeable. Perhaps face down? Wounds likely were on the front of their bodies so face down would make it possibly not evident at first?

The killer left signatures. I believe the bullet they found was probably one. We don’t know if other bullets were found in a placed manner (in a victim’s hand or something).

I’ll be interested to know what the staging or posing was and why they believe it was done as well as what the signatures were.

Just because one kid was missing panties doesn’t mean there was a sexual assault or anything. It could be part of the staging. Maybe he wanted it to look like a sexual attack gone wrong? Maybe it was meant to appear that the kids bravely fought off a sexual attacker? Why? I don’t know. Maybe that would seem to make more sense than a basic kidnapping? I can’t imagine what goes on in the mind of someone who commits this stuff. I am only hoping there was no sexual assault at this point. A sleuther can dream, right?

This is all my opinion:

I don't think he went to the trails that day to harm anyone. He just carried a gun and a knife with him always when he's outdoors on trails.

I think he past them on the trail as he was heading back from the bridge to his car. I think they giggled when he past them like teenage girls do, they giggle at everything...and he thought they were laughing at him. He became enraged and then waited until they were on the bridge themselves and he turned around and doubled back to them. (He looked NW up the trail and didn't see any new people heading to the bridge so the coast was clear.)

I think he was just going to teach them a lesson...like scold them or scare them like saying they'd better watch out who they laugh at in the future, they'd better respect their elders, it might be a mad man instead of him or something like that. He said "down the hill" and maybe when they didn't react, he pulled out his gun. On the way down the hill, he realized then that his anger had gotten him into trouble and had escalated it into a criminal act. Then he was walking them down the dirt road below with the gun trying to figure out how to tell them to keep walking and don't look back so he could go back up the bridge and escape via the regular trail back to his car.

But one (or both) of the girls bolted across the creek to get away. He panicked and went after them only to catch them as they struggled up the muddy bank. Probably caught one of them and told the other to come here or he'd kill her.

He then had a bigger problem.... they saw his face close up. He had passed the tipping point and had to silence the witnesses... so he then killed them.

As he took a long time to figure out how to cover up this crime, he decided to make it look like a sexual assault and spend the majority of the hour he was there covering his tracks by removing clothing that might have his DNA on it and throwing into the creek. Staging their bodies. Dragging them to the middle of that flat area far enough from both the creek and from the cemetery so they couldn't be easily spotted quickly. Probably was shocked at what he had done and covered their eyes and their bodies.

He eventually walked up to the cemetery and maybe worked his way thru the trees back to the road only to eventually be seen by the one driver.

I think the bullet accidentally fell out of his pocket when he was removing their clothing and dragging them around.

Again, just an educated guess.

 

[MAHBOOBOO]

I'm guessing that he ate his copies because he didn't want to chance other inmates or even possibly guards getting their hands on them. Perhaps the level of depravity in them would have made his situation there even worse. Otherwise the papers would have just been sitting around in his cell when he left it for showers/recreational time/meals.

 

[Vern]

Could anyone explain it better to me how LE can seize items during a search? Doesn't the warrant only cover certain items, like clothing, electronics, weapons, etc.? How broad can they make the warrant? So like the fabric straps, motorcycle cover, headbands, and plastic water bottle... where do they fit within the confines of the warrant?

See page 7 of the below linked document (bolded by me):

https://www.wishtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/state-motion-to-suppress.pdf

The residence located on the property is described as ranch style house that is brick with two-car garage, as further depicted in the attached photograph. The property also contains wooden shed. There is also 2016 Black Ford Focus SE located on the property. Law enforcement is ordered to diligently search for any and all information and/or evidence of the crime of Murder in violation of I.C. 35-42-1-1; specifically to search for handguns, .40 caliber ammunition, knives, blue sweatshirts/jackets, black sweatshirts/jackets, clothing, electronic devices and cell phone with phone number 317-612-4533; any other cell phones; and any other electronic devices located in or on the locations described above. Law enforcement is authorized to search these areas to determine whether or not there has been violation committed as described in the afiidavit at the residence, in the yard, the vehicle and any appurtenances.

You are furthermore ordered to seize such property, or any part thereof, found on such search and that you bring the same, or any part thereof forthwith before me to be disposed of according to law. Please return this information within 10 days.

Dated this l3th day of October, 2022.

Benjamin Diener, Judge
Carroll Circuit Court Judge

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Could anyone explain it better to me how LE can seize items during a search? Doesn't the warrant only cover certain items, like clothing, electronics, weapons, etc.? How broad can they make the warrant? So like the fabric straps, motorcycle cover, headbands, and plastic water bottle... where do they fit within the confines of the warrant?

From the search warrant:

“Law enforcement is ordered to diligently search for any and all information and/or evidence of the crime of Murder in violation of IC-35-42-1-1; specifically to search for…”

Just my opinion, but I think the “any and all” part opens it up to anything they might find that they think could have been used in this crime.

 

[CGBSpender]

DBM

 

[FrostedGlass]

From the search warrant:

“Law enforcement is ordered to diligently search for any and all information and/or evidence of the crime of Murder in violation of IC-35-42-1-1; specifically to search for…”

Just my opinion, but I think the “any and all” part opens it up to anything they might find that they think could have been used in this crime.

Aren't search warrants supposed to be specific?

 

[photographer4]

IF he wasn't working alone, IF abduction was the plan, theoretically he could've accomplished his leg of the sick relay on his lunch hour.

Why would he agree to kidnap two girls? His own deviance, fast cash, debt settling, extortion....

Consider:

He's provided a phone, the same one that shows up at KAK's kitchen, scrubbed.

His task, to corral the girls at the end of the bridge, force them at gunpoint to a waiting vehicle with an as-yet unnamed driver.

Twisted mission accomplished, someone else takes it from there, driving the captive girls to a pre-arranged location. Cabin in the woods, basement bunker, abandoned building/warehouse/house where they could be kept for a short or long time.

It could've been slick as clockwork.

Slick and sick, but if he'd gotten the girls away from the park, he may have been successful in relocating Libby's phone too, giving others occasion to destroy it.

At most there'd be a description of a guy and maybe Libby's shoe....

Those girls could still be held somewhere, long game, with no way out.

IMO Libby and maybe Abby too realized what was happening and made that harrowing decision don't let them take you to the secondary location. IMO at least one of them was going to try to bolt for the direction of the last person they saw, the lady who had turned back, who was already getting in her car, driving away, unaware.

IMO it turned deadly then and there because RA knew he'd been seen by them, there was no turning back (for him). Gun jammed, he was left with his knife.

Who in that circle of CSAM has access to another location? Could it have been the CPS building itself?

I think there was a master plan.

Jmo

How far a walk is the CPS building? I doubt they walking with two kidnapped kids along the road. A waiting car? Maybe. The car no showed. Did one or both kids run back toward the creek hoping to get to the bridge?

 

[Charlot123]

This is what I think. Searchers who found the bodies didn’t immediately know what they’d found (a murder scene) per LE in the past. How did they not? The scene was bloody (Witness saw someone leave who was bloody and muddy). They lost a lot of blood at the scene (PCA RL). Missing was one sock and a pair of panties (Recent doc drop).

What was it then that made searchers not know what they’d come across immediately?

I believe he redressed them. Used leaves and mud to cover the blood as much as he could. Placed the bodies in a way that wounds weren’t immediately noticeable. Perhaps face down? Wounds likely were on the front of their bodies so face down would make it possibly not evident at first?

The killer left signatures. I believe the bullet they found was probably one. We don’t know if other bullets were found in a placed manner (in a victim’s hand or something).

I’ll be interested to know what the staging or posing was and why they believe it was done as well as what the signatures were.

Just because one kid was missing panties doesn’t mean there was a sexual assault or anything. It could be part of the staging. Maybe he wanted it to look like a sexual attack gone wrong? Maybe it was meant to appear that the kids bravely fought off a sexual attacker? Why? I don’t know. Maybe that would seem to make more sense than a basic kidnapping? I can’t imagine what goes on in the mind of someone who commits this stuff. I am only hoping there was no sexual assault at this point. A sleuther can dream, right?

Very interesting and thank you! I assume there was no sexual assault the way we know it, otherwise there would be some DNA left.
I wonder if the signatures in RA who as we are told never murdered before, mean that he did? I remember the podcast mentioning five. A lot in newly minted killer, or did he have OCD? All articles mention people like Ted Bundy when they speak about signatures... I would like to know how the people who commented on signatures in the podcast explain it now.

 

[photographer4]

I wonder if either victim was missing a ponytail holder / hair tie, and LE just hasn't put that info in any of the documents publicly filed?

JMO

He has a wife and daughter so that being in his home wouldn’t be unusual.

 

[MistyWaters]

He has a wife and daughter so that being in his home wouldn’t be unusual.

The items taken during the SW most likely won’t all become evidence. It’s a starting point for the purpose of connecting the victims and suspect and undoubtedly DNA testing is taking place. It’d be a pretty haphazard search if the deputies just picked and choosed what they thought might be related, instead they just take everything fitting within the listing in the SW and leave it for others to process. It’s not unusual to see dozens of boxes taken during a SW and only a couple of dozen or less items being used as trial evidence.

 

[MistyWaters]

Now I get it, releasing the names of the witnesses contained in an unredacted PC that was an attachment to one of the motions was unintentional.

Court docket reveals how Delphi teens died, as well as witnesses' names

The world learned that Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen admitted to the killings during an April 3 phone call to his wife.

www.jconline.com

“……..Publishing Wednesday's cache of documents did not come without a glitch.

"Counsel agree that the original, unredacted Affidavit for Probable Cause shall remained sealed as it lists names of juvenile witnesses," Gull wrote in her June 28 order.

But an exhibit in the state's objection to defendant's motion to suppress filed June 13 included an unredacted copy of the original probable cause, including the names of witnesses who were on the trail on Feb. 13, 2017, and what they specifically told investigators.

The Journal & Courier is not naming those witnesses out of respect for the intent of Gull's order.

Publishing Wednesday's cache of documents did not come without a glitch.

"Counsel agree that the original, unredacted Affidavit for Probable Cause shall remained sealed as it lists names of juvenile witnesses," Gull wrote in her June 28 order.

But an exhibit in the state's objection to defendant's motion to suppress filed June 13 included an unredacted copy of the original probable cause, including the names of witnesses who were on the trail on Feb. 13, 2017, and what they specifically told investigators.

The Journal & Courier is not naming those witnesses out of respect for the intent of Gull's order.”

 

[Pseudonymph]

Now that I have read the documents and the thread, I have some thoughts:

The pedestrians who saw him said he was covering his face. “Headbands” may include bandana or a gaiter/buff that he may have used.

I think this was an unplanned crime of rage. He appeared to be on the move and in a grumpy mood, so anything could have triggered him. Perhaps he was following the girls because he perceived they giggled or said something about him. It could be anything—maybe he thought they were being unsafe on the bridge, he said something to warn them, they didn’t respond well, and he snapped and followed them. Who knows. But I think it escalated. They fought back hard (it is documented that Libby fought back). He was outnumbered and panicked, and it triggered his extreme anger to the point where he pulled out his knife and slaughtered them both. Maybe he thought to shoot them and the gun jammed. Then he staged the scene.

Actually, edited to add, maybe the girls got hold of the gun and tried to shoot him, but it didn’t work.

 

[MAHBOOBOO]

Ouuu. They may have found the head covering! I always thought he was wearing a cap just like this.


So TO ME it sounds like he racked the slide on his .40 in front of the girls on the bridge. Probably meaning to show them that he was serious. Then once he gets them down to the creek he tries to shoot one for some reason but the gun jams because it's probably just been sitting in a drawer gathering dust, racks the slide again to eject the bullet so he can try again, then the girls start running and he gives up and resorts to the knife.

He sure did have a lot of large recreational knives. He doesn't seem the type to actually GO hunting, so for him to have that many to me is sus.

 

[wary]

Now that I have read the documents and the thread, I have some thoughts:

The pedestrians who saw him said he was covering his face. “Headbands” may include bandana or a gaiter/buff that he may have used.

I think this was an unplanned crime of rage. He appeared to be on the move and in a grumpy mood, so anything could have triggered him. Perhaps he was following the girls because he perceived they giggled or said something about him. It could be anything—maybe he thought they were being unsafe on the bridge, he said something to warn them, they didn’t respond well, and he snapped and followed them. Who knows. But I think it escalated. They fought back hard (it is documented that Libby fought back). He was outnumbered and panicked, and it triggered his extreme anger to the point where he pulled out his knife and slaughtered them both. Maybe he thought to shoot them and the gun jammed. Then he staged the scene.

Actually, edited to add, maybe the girls got hold of the gun and tried to shoot him, but it didn’t work.

Where is it documented that Libby fought back?

 

[Yemelyan]

#19 in the link I posted indicates the SW was executed at about 5pm and completed by 7:09. The thing with information from “neighbours” and such is that it’s not always factual information. I would put far more weight on information contained in legal docs than media reports sourced from anonymous people.

I put the weight on the information in the legal documents.

But the one thing I wonder about with the neighbors, is whether there was a different search warrant (unrelated to the murders of Abby and Libby) executed first that day. I know that sounds weird but I wonder. Or the neighbors could have just been wrong in their observations. Just speculation.

 

[Ravenmoon]

DBM

Further research needed.

 

[NoSpoonFeeding]

httpss://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/police-seizure-items-not-listed-warrant-supreme-court-voids#:~:text=It%20is%20well%20established%20by,items%20are%20evidence%20of%20crime.

While serving a search warrant police may seize items that are in plain sight.

Except this search warrant(s) enables LE to look anywhere on the property, drawers, closets, boxes, gun boxes, cabinets, etc, for items not in plain sight.

 

[Justice101]

So during release of discovery documents to the defense, did the defense attorney say that NONE of the items seized in the search warrants prove out to be related to the murders? Is that what they are saying as to why the whole search warrant needed to be excluded?

 

[FrostedGlass]

Is it typical for the family to not be allowed in the house while it's being searched by LE?

 

[MistyWaters]

So during release of discovery documents to the defense, did the defense attorney say that NONE of the items seized in the search warrants prove out to be related to the murders? Is that what they are saying as to why the whole search warrant needed to be excluded?

I think what the defense was saying is the prosecution should’ve had to first prove why the items they were seeking (and later seized) were directly related to the murders. Chicken and egg argument IMO

Some of what was seized appears to concern the defense or they wouldn’t be attempting to have the SW tossed. But isn’t this routine? I don’t see it as a big deal, in every trial I’ve ever followed the defense poses this sort of argument and rarely is it successful. It not as if LE marched into the house and just started taking things after interviewing the couple, they got a SW was their legal authority. JMO