IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

[MistyWaters]

Thanks again for this.

Well then.

Guard signed an affidavit swearing to his odonism-symbol-identifying-patch worn in support of his norse pagan heathenry beliefs "that are NOT odonism" ... so ... all's well in solitary, clearly.

Prosecutor says Delphi murders suspect is safe despite correctional officers possibly wearing Odinism patches

I don’t think even the defence memo insinuated Odinism represented a violent and dangerous belief system. Their claim was it had been hijacked by white supremists. As a white man it’s still not clear to me why RA would‘ve been fearful of Odinists, any more than any other religious practise. How is that a big deal to him, if he indeed was uninvolved? If the defence wants to get this past a jury, they’re going to have to create some extremely twisted story telling IMO.

Richard Allen’s attorneys point to white nationalists practicing Odinism as behind Delphi killings

Attorneys for Richard Allen, the suspect in the Delphi killings of Abby Williams and Libby German, submitted a filing outlining why they believe the girls were “ritualistically sacrificed” and leveled accusations against lead detectives of ignoring or intentionally suppressing that evidence for...

www.21alivenews.com

“Defense attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rozzi claim three members of law enforcement looked into a possible connection to Odinists, which they described as members of a pagan Norse religion which has been hijacked by white nationalists, as being involved in the murders.”

 

[MistyWaters]

Prosecution responds to defense’s ‘ritualistic’ murder theory in Delphi case, calls Odinism theory ‘unfounded’

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. – The Carroll County Prosecutor’s Office filed its response to several allegations made by attorneys for Delphi murder suspect Richard Allen. In a series of documents filed in …

fox59.com

“In a series of documents filed in court Tuesday, the prosecutor’s office accused Allen’s defense team of making “unfounded accusations” that are supported by “absolutely no proof.”

Prosecutor Nick McLeland accused the defense of “consuming the limited resources of the office and this court with repetitive motions that lack any factual basis.”….

…….In sworn affidavits submitted Tuesday, guards assigned to Allen said they were not practitioners of Odinism. One did say he wore patches specific to a “religious higher power, the same way a Christian person would wear a cross.”

Another guard, in a sworn affidavit, said he practiced “Norse Paganism Heathenry,” and wore patches that could be mistaken for Odinism but were not related to a cult or hate group…..”

 

[MistyWaters]

Typical pretrial antics….

Prosecutor says Delphi murders suspect is safe despite correctional officers possibly wearing Odinism patches

New court documents were filed Tuesday by both the prosecutor and defense attorneys for Richard Allen.

www.wndu.com

Prosecutor’s response to defense’s motion for discovery deadline​

According to WTHR, the state believes it has turned over everything in their possession and has no objection to a discovery deadline. The state said the defense’s theory that the state is intentionally withholding evidence because it is exculpatory is not true.

The prosecutor also claims the defense team hasn’t turned over any pieces of evidence from their investigation.

According to the prosecutor, when the state filed charges against Allen, the discovery was not in a format that could easily be provided to the defense, which the prosecutor clarified as all the paper documents had to be copied and scanned, and all the external hard drives and reports from law enforcement had to be collected.

The state is asking the court to require the defense team to turn over any evidence they get and not dump all the evidence on the state on Nov. 1 at 11:59 p.m.

 

[arielilane]

Interesting statement in State's response to defense discovery deadline. State agrees with deadline request and says they have turned everything over and have no exculpatory evidence about Allen. But also suggest they have not "reopened" any investigation. #Delphi 1/2

On 9/18/23 I asked ISP's Supt. Carter if the case was open and active and he replied: "Its's a very open investigation. And active."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711763834237596084

View attachment 452658




View attachment 452660

https://twitter.com/NewsyBarbara

 

[Emma Peel]

I don’t think even the defence memo insinuated Odinism represented a violent and dangerous belief system. Their claim was it had been hijacked by white supremists. As a white man it’s still not clear to me why RA would‘ve been fearful of Odinists, any more than any other religious practise. How is that a big deal to him, if he indeed was uninvolved? If the defence wants to get this past a jury, they’re going to have to create some extremely twisted story telling IMO.

Richard Allen’s attorneys point to white nationalists practicing Odinism as behind Delphi killings

Attorneys for Richard Allen, the suspect in the Delphi killings of Abby Williams and Libby German, submitted a filing outlining why they believe the girls were “ritualistically sacrificed” and leveled accusations against lead detectives of ignoring or intentionally suppressing that evidence for...

www.21alivenews.com

“Defense attorneys Andrew Baldwin and Bradley Rozzi claim three members of law enforcement looked into a possible connection to Odinists, which they described as members of a pagan Norse religion which has been hijacked by white nationalists, as being involved in the murders.”

Defense attorneys are suggesting that LE have the wrong guy; that it's other guy(s) (white nationalists/odinists?) that LE had possibly also investigated.

(I recall vaguely (sorry) the investigation considering occult connections. Wonder who defense feels they can point to?)

Do we know what evidence police dug up in RA's lawn yet?

 

[MistyWaters]

Defense attorneys are suggesting that LE have the wrong guy; that it's other guy(s) (white nationalists/odinists?) that LE had possibly also investigated.

(I recall vaguely (sorry) the investigation considering occult connections. Wonder who defense feels they can point to?)

Do we know what evidence police dug up in RA's lawn yet?

Yes the premise of the defence is the girls were killed in an odinist/hijacked by white supremist sacrificial ritual because one parent was involved in a biracial relationship. But there’s no guarantee the Judge would allow them to point to anyone.

Allen's defense: Libby and Abby killed in Odinism ritual sacrifice

"Members of a pagan Norse religion, called Odinism ... ritualistically sacrificed Abigail Williams and Liberty German," the motion states.

www.jconline.com

No LE have not publicly disclosed other additional evidence aside what was stated in the PC for his arrest. I wouldn’t expect that to occur prior to the trial.

 

[Emma Peel]

Yes the premise of the defence is the girls were killed in an odinist/hijacked by white supremist sacrificial ritual because one parent was involved in a biracial relationship. But there’s no guarantee the Judge would allow them to point to anyone.

Allen's defense: Libby and Abby killed in Odinism ritual sacrifice

"Members of a pagan Norse religion, called Odinism ... ritualistically sacrificed Abigail Williams and Liberty German," the motion states.

www.jconline.com

No LE have not publicly disclosed other additional evidence aside what was stated in the PC for his arrest. I wouldn’t expect that to occur prior to the trial.

Ah thank you thank you, Misty - for helping me confirm old memories.

 

[FrostedGlass]

Defense attorneys are suggesting that LE have the wrong guy; that it's other guy(s) (white nationalists/odinists?) that LE had possibly also investigated.

(I recall vaguely (sorry) the investigation considering occult connections. Wonder who defense feels they can point to?)

Do we know what evidence police dug up in RA's lawn yet?

Regarding what was dug up in the yard: I'm linking the document dump that contains the return on the search warrant. I don't see any items on it that may have been buried in the yard. I don't know what to make of the Aquafina bottle they took but there's no lab report on it noted in the receipts.
The warrant return begins on Pg 115

https://fox59.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2023/06/DelphiDocumentsCombined.pdf

 

[Bergmann]

I just watched the "defense diaries" podcast she was on 7 days ago... Good stuff. Nice to know folks with experience are as frustrated as I am with the weak circumstantial evidence.

That was the one with Bob Motta wasn't it? Yep found that very interesting to hear Barbara's thoughts and see Motta being shall we say, a little more restrained than usual, in criticising the P's conduct of the case to date. He's less of a fan of NMcL than I am!

If you want to see Bob cut loose then there's a video with him on Jay & Not So Silent Bob.

 

[zh0r4]

I don’t know if he will or not.

The point more was that the timeline is a huge problem for the defence and they have no way to counter it if he doesn’t.

Especially as far as PC goes the evidence puts him at the crime scene and it’s very hard to overcome the Search warrant pre trial.

IMO the timeline will be a huge issue for P, way more than the defense. The P is the one who has to prove RA was there beyond a reasonable doubt…JMO all I personally have right now are doubts re: the timeline. The D is even claiming Liggett misrepresented eyewitness statements, from my understanding. Ideally, the P can address the plentiful issues brought up in the D memo.

Per the defense memo, p. 105-116, the defense discusses numerous potential issues. 1 being that RA said he was on the trail 12-1:30pm, that he *left* around 1:30pm. Another is that BB’s (eyewitness #1; 2nd sketch released that looks nothing like RA) and SC’s (eyewitness #2; 1st sketch released) accounts of what they saw differ a lot from each other, the way they observed the potential perp, the locations they observed the perp, their sketches of the perp….SC allegedly saw the perp *while she was driving* and he was walking on the other side of the road-how accurate can eyewitness testimony via someone driving on the other side of the road be? BB saw him 50 ft away walking on the bridge and her account looks nothing like RA, but a younger guy in his 20s or earlier 30s with curly/poofy hair.

Although BB had a much better look at the guy on the bridge, and gave the sketch artist a 10/10 on their sketch (which was completed only 4 days after the murders), she had to go to Liggett 2 years later in March 2019 out of frustration that her sketch had not been released because she said the other sketch was not who she saw on the bridge, even stating sketch #1 was wrong. BB’s sketch was finally released in April 2019. Furthermore, BB stated she did not see a black Ford Focus in the CPS parking lot at 2:15pm but a 1965 Blue Comet that looks nothing like RA’s car.

The D also states SC’s description of the clothes was incorrect…I really hope there is more evidence than the eyewitness statements and the unspent bullet so there is justice for the victims. I’m attaching as many pages as I can (10 pages of p. 105-116) below that corroborate what I said above from the D memo. The D memo keeps going but it’s dense information and this is far as I’ve gotten re: dissecting the allegations re: the timeline in the D memo.

 

[zh0r4]

75% of murder cases are solved and successfully prosecuted without DNA evidence.

It's all the other direct evidence that matters just as much like tire tracks, footprints, hair (is a big one), finger prints, call and phone logs, local video footage, duct tape matches, carpet fiber matches.. you name it.

To add, from the NIJ:
(Wrongful Convictions and DNA Exonerations: Understanding the Role of Forensic Science)

“According to the Innocence Project, a national litigation and public policy organization dedicated to exonerating wrongfully convicted individuals, 342 people have been exonerated as a result of DNA analysis as of July 31, 2016. The Innocence Project lists six “contributing causes” for wrongful convictions:

• Eyewitness misidentification
• False confessions or admissions
• Government misconduct
• Inadequate defense
• Informants (e.g., jailhouse snitches)
• Unvalidated or improper forensic science.

After identifying a set of erroneous convictions and near misses and analyzing the cases using bivariate and logistic regression techniques, Gould and his colleagues identified 10 “factors” (not causes) that led to a wrongful conviction of an innocent defendant instead of a dismissal or acquittal:

• Younger defendant.
• Criminal history.
• Weak prosecution case.
• Prosecution withheld evidence.
• Lying by a non-eyewitness.
• Unintentional witness misidentification.
• Misinterpreting forensic evidence at trial.
• Weak defense.
• Defendant offered a family witness.
• States with a “punitive” culture.

 

[zh0r4]

Thanks again for this.

Well then.

Guard signed an affidavit swearing to his odonism-symbol-identifying-patch worn in support of his norse pagan heathenry beliefs "that are NOT odonism" ... so ... all's well in solitary, clearly.

Prosecutor says Delphi murders suspect is safe despite correctional officers possibly wearing Odinism patches

Do we know what he did that was considered not complying with officers’ orders that resulted in being tased twice in just over 3 weeks time?

 

[girlhasnoname]

Thank you for this.

And - re: #2 above.
RA is held separately from other inmates for his own protection - is he not?
And those charged with communicating with him, feeding him, monitoring him while he uses the phone ... they wear badges of intimidation/coercion.

... confession under stress?

RBBM

RA was on suicide watch when he was transferred to Westerville because of statements he made himself. Their job as Correction Officers is to monitor him and make sure nothing happens to him before he gets to trial.

What are the badges of intimadation/coercion? Their guard uniforms or their Odinist patches?

MOO

 

[girlhasnoname]

Typical pretrial antics….

Prosecutor says Delphi murders suspect is safe despite correctional officers possibly wearing Odinism patches

New court documents were filed Tuesday by both the prosecutor and defense attorneys for Richard Allen.

www.wndu.com

Prosecutor’s response to defense’s motion for discovery deadline​

According to WTHR, the state believes it has turned over everything in their possession and has no objection to a discovery deadline. The state said the defense’s theory that the state is intentionally withholding evidence because it is exculpatory is not true.

The prosecutor also claims the defense team hasn’t turned over any pieces of evidence from their investigation.

According to the prosecutor, when the state filed charges against Allen, the discovery was not in a format that could easily be provided to the defense, which the prosecutor clarified as all the paper documents had to be copied and scanned, and all the external hard drives and reports from law enforcement had to be collected.

The state is asking the court to require the defense team to turn over any evidence they get and not dump all the evidence on the state on Nov. 1 at 11:59 p.m.

Hah, how rich. The Defense hasn't turned over anything to the State. I'm sure they've been super busy crafting their outrageous Memorandum, haven't had time to provide any real information to the State.

Do as I say, not as I do seems to be the running theme here.

JMO

 

[Justice101]

The exact year of car is not important in the case. Imagine how many

Hah, how rich. The Defense hasn't turned over anything to the State. I'm sure they've been super busy crafting their outrageous Memorandum, haven't had time to provide any real information to the State.

Do as I say, not as I do seems to be the running theme here.

JMO

I hate to pick sides here... but when you've got nothing but wild unprovable stories as your defense, you are wasting everyone's time.

Sometimes the defendant is guilty as sin....and there is nothing at all you can do to put any reasonable doubt in the jury's mind.

 

[TL4S]

That was the one with Bob Motta wasn't it? Yep found that very interesting to hear Barbara's thoughts and see Motta being shall we say, a little more restrained than usual, in criticising the P's conduct of the case to date. He's less of a fan of NMcL than I am!

If you want to see Bob cut loose then there's a video with him on Jay & Not So Silent Bob.

I watched the DD episode with BMcD, too. As well as a few other podcasts with her as a guest. She mentions every single time about her sources not definitively knowing if the bullet came from the suspect, LE, or otherwise. The P better find a really convincing expert witness to the extractor mark ballistics at trial. Jmo.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I agree BMcD has said the bullet has been questioned, but I took that as her saying it was a .40 caliber, which is the same as LE uses, not specifically suggesting it came from LE themselves.

The bullet was found approx 2 feet between Abby & Libby's bodies. It was photographed at that location before it was recovered. I guess I'm unsure of how LE would have dropped or placed that bullet there?

The State did say that the extraction marks found on the bullet matched RA's SS. Of course, we'll debate the scientific value of that during trial heavily I would imagine.

JMO

 

[Bergmann]

Back to that bombshell of a defence 136p memo.

Apart from the ramble, general lack of focus, and less than helpful loose non-legal phrasing and language (which do not present a credible impression, far from it) - there are a few other problems I have with it.

a. Drawing a pretty much unfounded and unnecessary conclusion that the crimes were Odinistic ritual sacrifices.

I mean, come on. It would have been much better to just present the facts that there were a bunch of guys looked at early on in the investigation that were acting as a white supremacist gang under the guise of pagan/ Odinist colours. Then you can point to the other things that are/ appear Odinist etc and ask LE what they made of this rather than jumping to ritualistic sacrifice yourself,

Seems deliberately sensationalised, presumably to get broader media coverage.

b. Attempting to suggest that the only way that the perp and victims could have gotten from the bridge to the place they were found was by wading through 3-4 ft high water across Deer Creek, and that they must have all been soaking wet.

There's plenty of anecdotal descriptions that if you know where to cross that you can pretty much hop across in a much shallower crossing point and not have to wade or anything like that.

Also if the perp was RA as P alleges, then rather than 'muddy and bloody' (witness SC did not say bloody apparently...) he would have been dripping wet from pretty much the chest down as he is only 5'4" tall? Where's the witness of the dripping wet guy?

c. Using hearsay about what Liggett is alleged to have said privately to further the notion that one person alone could not have committed these crimes

I get why the D would want to support this idea as it muddies the waters about their client acting alone and tries to lead people more towards multiple actors (which they say RA has no connection with, ergo it isn't RA I suppose they would suggest). But why use Liggett and in such an unsubstantiated way? Not the strongest of arguments or reasoning here.

This leads me on to -

d. The pages of overcomplicated and entirely supposition, scenario of how one actor couldn't possibly have abducted, murdered, and staged the crime scene by themself.

I mean fine, if you want to offer that idea then okay I'm open minded, but the 92 point blow by blow suggested account of what it would take if one person alone were the perp is not the best way of suggesting that notion. Its too unwieldy and has too much verbal imagery of how the girls might have been handled which is just 'ugh' and also distracts from the point they are making.

If you're trying to make the 'couldn't be a lone actor' point then why not instead quote from cases and experts who have some credibility and basis in fact rather than an overly graphic 'what if'?

e. Not a lot of the above, which I've outlined my problems with, does much (or has anything to do with) building/ supporting a case that Ligget and NMcL lied and obtained a SW under false pretences

As I've repeated previously, this is a big deal and a major no-no for D to so without having overwhelming evidence and recipts to back it up with. The D do go into some detail elsewhere in the 136p (which I tend to think is much better described and argued, but could have been done better I think in the hands of some-one more skilled and experienced).

Its just that points a to e, problems aside, probably belong somewhere else.

There's no mention of the bullet either (they mentioned pretty much everything else!) which is noteworthy. I suspect plan A is to try to get the SW evidence tossed (pretty much no chance as the bullet ties together a lot of the state's circumstantial case); and plan B is line up experts against the ejector marks being reliable/ admissible in court.

So, whilst I've criticised NMcL for being inexperienced and perhaps out of his depth IMO, there are significant parts of the D memo which are pretty ill-judged and very badly written.

No wonder they wrote the supplementary filing, and this was much more legally and maturely framed and written.

 

[FrostedGlass]

@Bergmann I've snipped a part of your post. That's true about shallow crossings but we don't know if they crossed at the point shown in re-enactments. Maybe they crossed more to the east, where the water was deeper, where the KK picture shows the detective on the bank, looking down.

b. Attempting to suggest that the only way that the perp and victims could have gotten from the bridge to the place they were found was by wading through 3-4 ft high water across Deer Creek, and that they must have all been soaking wet.

There's plenty of anecdotal descriptions that if you know where to cross that you can pretty much hop across in a much shallower crossing point and not have to wade or anything like that.

 

[TL4S]

I agree BMcD has said the bullet has been questioned, but I took that as her saying it was a .40 caliber, which is the same as LE uses, not specifically suggesting it came from LE themselves.

The bullet was found approx 2 feet between Abby & Libby's bodies. It was photographed at that location before it was recovered. I guess I'm unsure of how LE would have dropped or placed that bullet there?

The State did say that the extraction marks found on the bullet matched RA's SS. Of course, we'll debate the scientific value of that during trial heavily I would imagine.

JMO

In her Court TV comment about it, she said that one speculation (after referring to her sources) was it even could have come from LE. My question is whether the extraction marks were compared to the applicable guns of any LE who were on the scene that day.

The sticking point for me in terms of RA is the three juvenile witnesses who saw RA walking towards the bridge around 1:30. There were actually four girls, but RA said he saw three. That could be a simple mistake, but what I'd really like to know is if there was a group of three females near FB closer to noon, when RA claims he got there.

I just look at these as loose ends that need to be tied up. But only to satisfy my own mind, not knowing all the evidence, of course. Jmo.