IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #281
Until prosecution produces the chain of custody photos, we have a lot of questions. Like how do we know the bullet that was shown in the ground is the same one as the one the lab sent to RA's atty? (referenced in the memorandum)

How can one know chain of custody documents are legitimate, if one wants to go down the road of LE corruption?

I’ve never heard of chain of custody photos, have you? Chain of custody is a trial issue that arises from time to time but my recollect is it refers to records not photos.

The defence mentioned they hadn’t received a photo of the bullet being “dug”(?) at the crime scene by the prosecution but I’m curious if photo taking of evidence being recovered is a legal requirement or did the defence just make it up? Photos of someone recovering a bullet does prove it’s the same bullet that was analyzed. Usually it’s evidence markers which are placed on the ground that are shown at trial.

And lastly, if the defence was genuinely concerned about this why wouldn’t they mention that in the motion relating to the ballistics evidence, instead of burying it in the memo asking to suppress a SW, a totally unrelated issue to the handling of evidence?

“The chain of custody is the most critical process of evidence documentation. It is a must to assure the court of law that the evidence is authentic, i.e., it is the same evidence seized at the crime scene. It was, at all times, in the custody of a person designated to handle it and for which it was never unaccounted. Although it is a lengthy process, it is required for evidence to be relevant in the court. The continuity of possession of evidence or custody of evidence and its movement and location from the point of discovery and recovery (at the scene of a crime or from a person), to its transport to the laboratory for examination and until the time it is allowed and admitted in the court, is known as the chain of custody or chain of evidence.”
 
  • #282
Nothing noted by JConline about sticks/branches being placed in Abby’s hair, ”above her head” would suggest on the ground.

“…..and faux antlers created with sticks branches placed above Abby's head, according to the memorandum.”


The entire crime scene area is littered with sticks and branches.


photo source
 

Attachments

  • 1696016973794.png
    1696016973794.png
    490.2 KB · Views: 30
Last edited:
  • #283
This is the whole document dump. Search warrant info begins on page 109. The list of items taken is right below it.

I am still reading. A few questions:

Were any eyewitness given a line up that included RA and other people who looked similar to RA? (p. 110-113)

RA’s wife stated he had “guns and knives”. It appears numerous knives were collected, did he have more than one gun? If so, would they typically only retrieve one of the guns in his possession?

Did they get a warrant for RA’s phone since they said they believed he was on his phone on the bridge per eye witnesses? (p. 115)

Did they only find a total of (19) .40 cal bullets (9 in one mag, 8 in another mag, one in a keepsake box, and one in the chamber of the gun)? (p. 116)
 
  • #284
For a non Odinist, RA, to try and frame it as an Odinist did it in an effort to completely throw LE off his trail. Or maybe he had some sick fantasy to recreate such a thing and filmed or photographed it for sale on the Dark Web? There are a million reasons why RA did what he did and hopefully at trial we will hear some of them.

JMO
I was speaking specifically to the cell phone inside the shoe under Libby’s (IIRC) body rather than anything Odin.
 
  • #285
Nothing noted by JConline about sticks/branches being placed in Abby’s hair, ”above her head” would suggest on the ground.

“…..and faux antlers created with sticks branches placed above Abby's head, according to the memorandum.”


The entire crime scene area is littered with sticks and branches.


photo source
The creek in the background is presumably Deer Creek?

I’m curious why the 2020 article states they were found 50 feet from the creek and the other articles I found from 2017, 2019, and 2022 say 0.25 miles-0.75 miles? I know the media makes mistakes, but a range of 50 feet-3,960 feet seems like a drastic difference. JMO
 
  • #286
  • #287
The creek in the background is presumably Deer Creek?

I’m curious why the 2020 article states they were found 50 feet from the creek and the other articles I found from 2017, 2019, and 2022 say 0.25 miles-0.75 miles? I know the media makes mistakes, but a range of 50 feet-3,960 feet seems like a drastic difference. JMO


I am thinking that it was stated as being about.25 miles from the bridge, not the creek.
 
  • #288
In the absence of information, we as humans tend to exaggerate our weaknesses and falsely magnify our fears. Like when your daughter is an hour late home and you get worried thinking she is dying in a ditch somewhere. This probably applies to this case.

So I will assume that the prosecution has more than enough evidence to prove RA guilty of felony murder beyond a reasonable doubt to a jury of his peers.

I agree, that’s a good analogy to this case. The reason the defence is forced to present a sideshow is most often because they know the prosecution has a strong case.

Assuming the Judge schedules a hearing to hear the suppression of SW motion, that’s all that she will rule on. She will not go digging through each of the 136 pages of the memo one by one, expecting the prosecution to respond to the smorgasbord of all the other unrelated allegations which the defence put forth. That won’t be happening and the defence surely knows that.

McLeland fired back in new court filings by calling the alternative theory “a fanciful defense for social media to devour” that isn’t supported by evidence. McLeland tore into the defense’s entire 136-page memorandum, calling the large filing “colorful, dramatic and highly unprofessional.

Chief amongst defense attorneys’ targets was a search warrant served by investigators on Richard Allen’s home in October 2022. The defense accused Sheriff Tony Liggett of lying about key information in order to have the search warrant signed by a judge.

McLeland responded by saying Liggett did not intentionally or recklessly omit evidence or lie about evidence in the probable cause affidavit that was filed with the court in order to gain the search warrant…..”
 
  • #289
The creek in the background is presumably Deer Creek?

I’m curious why the 2020 article states they were found 50 feet from the creek and the other articles I found from 2017, 2019, and 2022 say 0.25 miles-0.75 miles? I know the media makes mistakes, but a range of 50 feet-3,960 feet seems like a drastic difference. JMO

Yes that would be Deer Creek. Although there’s numerous photos of the general “crime scene” area which was taped off extending to the end of the bridge, I’m not aware of any photos revealing the precise location where the bodies were recovered from. That’s been a topic of fairly significant discussion in the past and you’re right, the varying distances reported is unusual. Some of the ambiguity may be how the distance was measured, from the bridge or the creek, walking or as the crow flies.
 
  • #290
I might be the only one who thinks the bullet may possibly have just been planted there
Anything is possible IMO. What doesn’t flow for me in the narrative from what I know, is well, a lot of things. The prosecution could have more info we are unaware of. With that being said:

The abduction and homicide would be happening during the day, with up to 5? eye witnesses on the bridge. Some witnesses say blue and some say black jacket, and at least one said it looked like the guy in the photo they released (which Liggett believed was a still from the video and he believed the person in the video is RA). Was a lineup with RA and those who look similar, dressed similarly to eye witness statements brought in for witnesses to identify? If not, how do we know all of the witnesses would identify RA as who they saw on the bridge that day? BW stated her head “came up to approximately his shoulder” (p. 111 PCA), but how tall was BW?

With what we have been shown of the grainy video found on Libby’s phone, how can we be sure the man in the video is RA? If it is RA, what if they encountered someone else after passing him on the bridge?

MOO, to commit this crime in the middle of the day, around a public area, it would require either a certain level of intelligence OR multiple perps. Our biology as humans is programmed for survival, and whether the girls had either a fight or flight innate response, what is the likelihood of one of them not screaming? Especially if they know they are in a place where other people might hear them and be able to help?

If RA acted alone, he would need to both physically subdue both girls and keep them from screaming and bringing attention to the scene. Since Libby was aware enough to video a creepy man on the bridge and his voice, she was likely aware intuitively of potential danger.

On page 110 of the search warrant affidavit, it is stated the same video contains both the man on the bridge and the voice saying “Down the Hill”, and is a 43 second video. Personally, I was unaware these 2 recordings were within the same video. If this is the case, the audio of “Down the Hill” would either have a closer shot of the perp’s face and/or clothing OR it would show nothing if she put it in her pocket trying to hide the phone. If the defense memo is accurate and she was unclothed, what is the probability the phone would not only not be found, but left under her body? In either case, why not show the entire 43 second video? If the video showed more identifying features of the perp, that would be more information to take to identify them; if the video was in her pocket and didn’t show anything, why not show it all and confirm the same man on the bridge approaches them, then says “Down the Hill”? It doesn’t make sense to not show the entire 43 second video from the beginning to try to identify the perp. JMO

MOO RA would need to be somewhat intelligent and organized to subdue 2 teenage girls in the middle of the day in a public area. Let’s say he planned this, he knew they were there or that he was going there to hunt potential victims. He already has an area he plans to take them to commit the murders, which in his view would be somewhere he wouldn’t be caught. Maybe he brings the gun to subdue them, then uses a knife. JMO it strikes me a bit odd for a theoretically intelligent, organized perp to bring 2 weapons to a public area to commit a murder-this is one more weapon to keep up with and make sure you don’t misplace. He’s already being brazen per the location where the murders allegedly took place, ideally if you were the perp you would want a more isolated area. If you are organized you would check for any technology and destroy it, as most everyone knows technology is a main source of evidence. You would also leave your phone somewhere/turn it off. I find it very bizarre and contradictory to be intelligent enough to abduct and murder 2 girls alone but leave TWO pieces of crucial evidence (the cell phone with the video and the bullet) tying you to the crime scene with the bodies. This doesn’t make sense to me. JMO it makes more sense that there were multiple perps and/or the time of death is later (I.e. committed during the night).

I’ve seen a lot of comments about RA’s interview, and I agree it would be unintelligent if RA is the perp to allow the interview. If he is the perp, why would he admit to these things? He could have said he wasn’t on the bridge that day, for example. JMO
 
  • #291
Again, what I am talking about is that they can't lie if there are receipts. If somebody says something in a deposition and they quote that or say that they lied, this has to be true for the simple fact that there are receipts. Being caught lying to the court about what someone said in a deposition would get them in trouble, maybe/probably disbarred.

I never said they can come up with their own theory of what happened and speculate based on some of the evidence or on the fact that at least some in LE still believe RA didn't do it and that the other people were investigated in the beginning. They can also leave things out, even from depositions.

That doesn't mean it's not troubling that someone from LE lied in a deposition. Or that there doesn't seem to be chain of custody for the bullet. There are many things like that in there.
You may want to reread the memorandum and actually look to see how many FULL AND COMPLETE quotes you can find. Most are partial quotes. Also look at footnote #5 very early on in the memorandum and see what they are using it to summarize. Its all manipulation.
 
  • #292
For me it boils down to this—-the purpose of the Defense memorandum is to toss out the search warrant of RA’s home, and all evidence obtained thereby.

Why so frantic to void the SW and the evidence from the search of the home?
If RA is not involved, there can be no damning evidence, right?

If LE came to my home with a SW to find evidence of my culpability in the murder of A and L, they wouldn’t find anything, because I didn’t do it.

That RA and his attorneys didn’t simply shrug it off, announce that LE can go ahead and search all they want because there’s nothing to hide, implies to me, JMO, that they greatly fear the evidence collected from his home.

JMO
IMO the most damning evidence would be DNA tied to the crime scene. Something else that caught my attention:

p. 116 - 1GB HD

p. 118 - 2GB HD; 1TB HD

p. 119 - Another HD, unknown storage

The HDs could technically be anything…photos, movies, lectures, books, music. We also don’t know if they were full. It would be very damning if there were photos of the crime scene/victims on any of these HDs. It would also be very stupid of him to save, but it’s possible.
 
  • #293
EF is intellectually disabled.
He has the mental capacity of a 6 year old.
Even so, that doesn’t absolve someone from potential responsibility for hypothetically committing a violent crime and it doesn’t say anything about their moral compass (in either direction). JMO
 
  • #294
Here's another gun/bullet related question that I hope someone can answer. The search warrant return has 3 parts: the gun/bullet collection, RA's belongings and whatever else and finally the car items. There is a box on the form for witness verification; that box is signed on the second two but not on the first one= the gun bullet.

So is it just some oversight by the witness or was there no witness? See the empty box?

View attachment 450352
Easy. Available photos .

They were easily available with a quick Google search.
They still exist, but are not as easy to find.

Keep in mind that these were said to be debunked.
Sauce? I’ve never seen any alleged crime scene photos leaked from this case, only alleged texts. Did you save the photos? If so, could you crop out the “antlers” to see? Thanks.
 
  • #295
Even so, that doesn’t absolve someone from potential responsibility for hypothetically committing a violent crime and it doesn’t say anything about their moral compass (in either direction). JMO

Absolve? No.
Pulling it off and being responsible? No.

The defense memo page 78, footnotes #16 and 17 refer to EF as a mentally infirm man with the capacity of a 7 year old.

In my experience, a 7 year old would not be able to pull off this entire crime in order to impress BH.

This is taking on the same tone as the Murdaugh case with oompa loompas being responsible for the Murdaugh killings.

AJMO


JMO
 
Last edited:
  • #296
Here's another gun/bullet related question that I hope someone can answer. The search warrant return has 3 parts: the gun/bullet collection, RA's belongings and whatever else and finally the car items. There is a box on the form for witness verification; that box is signed on the second two but not on the first one= the gun bullet.

So is it just some oversight by the witness or was there no witness? See the empty box?

View attachment 450352

Do you know, does LE bring along a laptop and record all these specifics on site during the execution of a SW or is the form handwritten/scrawled and later transcribed in neat type?
 
  • #297
Sauce? I’ve never seen any alleged crime scene photos leaked from this case, only alleged texts. Did you save the photos? If so, could you crop out the “antlers” to see? Thanks.

No. The photo is not something that I would ever share.

GOOGLE it. It's still out there.

And I don't have sauce, sorry. Plus, I stated it was debunked.

I didn't bring the photo up to prove that it exists.
I mentioned it ONLY because I would believe that is why EF talked about it .
 
  • #298
But there is the guy who knew about the "antlers" years ago. How is that possible?

There is so much missing who can say. The defence has told us about the antlers and EF declaring Abby was a pain in the ____. Then what? That was it? Nobody asked him any questions at all, seeking more details? I just can’t believe that.
 
  • #299
I am thinking that it was stated as being about.25 miles from the bridge, not the creek.
Ah thanks. So time wise, the distance their bodies were found from Deer Creek would be negligible. They were found North/Northeast bank of Deer Creek, approximately 1,320-3.960 ft (+ 50 ft) from the bridge where the video was taken.
 
  • #300
Ah thanks. So time wise, the distance their bodies were found from Deer Creek would be negligible. They were found North/Northeast bank of Deer Creek, approximately 1,320-3.960 ft (+ 50 ft) from the bridge where the video was taken.

The end of the old rail bridge overlaps land. It’s not right at the edge of Deer Creek.

 

Attachments

  • 1696026804517.jpeg
    1696026804517.jpeg
    113.9 KB · Views: 9
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
54
Guests online
2,592
Total visitors
2,646

Forum statistics

Threads
632,158
Messages
18,622,868
Members
243,039
Latest member
tippy13
Back
Top