IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #167

[Tealgrove]

For me it boils down to this—-the purpose of the Defense memorandum is to toss out the search warrant of RA’s home, and all evidence obtained thereby.

Why so frantic to void the SW and the evidence from the search of the home?
If RA is not involved, there can be no damning evidence, right?

If LE came to my home with a SW to find evidence of my culpability in the murder of A and L, they wouldn’t find anything, because I didn’t do it.

That RA and his attorneys didn’t simply shrug it off, announce that LE can go ahead and search all they want because there’s nothing to hide, implies to me, JMO, that they greatly fear the evidence collected from his home.

JMO

Exactly

 

[StarryStarryNight]

Defense memo page 43 and 44:

At his August 8, 2023, deposition, Sheriff Liggett was adamant that one person, and one
person alone – Richard Allen – was involved in the murder of Abby and Libby.34 However, off
record Liggett doesn’t believe that one man was capable of pulling off all of those tasks, especially
in such a short period of time, leaving behind a crime scene with no forensic evidence. As referred
to earlier, Liggett says one thing publicly under oath, but a different thing off-record to his buddies.
One of those buddies is former Sheriff (and now Chief Deputy Sheriff) Tobe Leazenby. The day
after Liggett’s August 8, 2023, deposition, Tobe Leazenby was subject to a deposition.
When Tobe Leazenby was asked at his deposition how many people he believed were
involved in the murder of Abby and Libby, Leazenby provided a different answer than Liggett. He
(Leazenby) indicated that “at least two” people were involved.35 The reasons Leazenby gave as to
his belief that “at least two” people were involved in the murders was Leazenby’s belief that “it
would be difficult for one individual to accomplish what occurred.”36
33 Again, Jerry Holeman testified in his deposition that investigators estimated the time of death as occurring
somewhere between 2:30 and 3:30 p.m. (Holeman depo., p. 17, lines 6-21).
34 Liggett depo. P. 67, lines 13-19
35 Leazenby depo. p. 19, lines 19-20.
36 Leazenby depo. p. 20, lines 9-10.
44
When asked if any other law enforcement officers shared this perspective, Leazenby
provided a surprising answer based upon what Liggett had testified to under oath the day before:
Yes, at least one other law enforcement officer believed multiple people were involved in the
murder of Abby and Libby: Tony Liggett. According to Leazenby’s sworn statement, it was
common for he (Leazenby) and Tony Liggett to have one-on-one conversations, and that Tony
Liggett definitely believed that more than one person was involved.37
Tony Liggett, who just the day before under oath claimed that only one person – Richard
Allen – was involved in the murders, privately behind the scenes, was saying something altogether
different in one-on-one conversations with his law enforcement friends.

None of us have read any of the depositions etc cited here. We have no context for any of it. We have no idea what the defense is picking and choosing or what they are omitting. The defense can spin a half a sentence in RA’s favor while choosing not to mention the next two paragraphs that might be completely d*mning to him.
All of this is, again, nothing but the defense’s opinion on what is said in those depositions etc. It is not fact.
I will add, Liggett and Leazenby may have at some time thought more than one person committed the crime. They probably thought a lot of things during those 5+ years. They may have had that opinion up until the RA file fell in their lap and suddenly everything fell into place. They may have still wondered after RA’s arrest if somebody else helped him. I’m sure they looked into that. They are allowed to change their minds when confronted with solid evidence against someone. That is not lying.
I just want all this ridiculousness to stop. I want the circus to leave town and the adults to start working this case. I want the trial sooner than later to finally get some real answers.
I want justice for Libby and Abby and their families.

 

[dirtgrl]

Exactly

Yes, that is the point of the memorandum. It’s how the legal process works. They’re arguing the SW was illegal and that the findings of the SW (the gun) is what gave probable cause for an arrest, so they want to throw it out.

It was stated what was found in the SW in the PCA. Jackets, boots, knives, and firearms, including the Sig Sauer .40 caliber pistol that investigators tested through a lab and determined that a cycled bullet had similar striations as the unspent bullet found at the scene.

The gun is the strongest piece of evidence recovered from the SW, which he had already admitted to owning, but the SW allowed them to run an official test. The labs findings were noted to be “subjective in nature” so it’s not a slam dunk piece of evidence.

Obviously the defense would want to get this thrown out because without it, there would not have been enough probable cause to make an arrest.

The gun in and of itself isn’t even the strongest piece of evidence, but why would they even want to risk defending against it if they can prove the SW was already illegal?

I think opinions would differ greatly if the SW found any evidence tying directly to L+A, which apparently it didn’t.

 

[dirtgrl]

None of us have read any of the depositions etc cited here. We have no context for any of it. We have no idea what the defense is picking and choosing or what they are omitting. The defense can spin a half a sentence in RA’s favor while choosing not to mention the next two paragraphs that might be completely d*mning to him.
All of this is, again, nothing but the defense’s opinion on what is said in those depositions etc. It is not fact.
I will add, Liggett and Leazenby may have at some time thought more than one person committed the crime. They probably thought a lot of things during those 5+ years. They may have had that opinion up until the RA file fell in their lap and suddenly everything fell into place. They may have still wondered after RA’s arrest if somebody else helped him. I’m sure they looked into that. They are allowed to change their minds when confronted with solid evidence against someone. That is not lying.
I just want all this ridiculousness to stop. I want the circus to leave town and the adults to start working this case. I want the trial sooner than later to finally get some real answers.
I want justice for Libby and Abby and their families.

What the defense is arguing the prosecution lied about is a report that Todd Click sent to the prosecution in May. He was concerned that the PCA didn’t mention any of the investigation that he, Murphy, and Ferency (FBI, deceased) had put together and so sent a report directly to the prosecutor. Remember that the CCSO kicked the FBI off of the case in 2021.

The report mentioned their investigation of the Odinist symbols and the names mentioned in the defense’s memorandum. The prosecutor did not provide it as evidence to the defense and then lied under oath about having it in his possession.

 

[FrostedGlass]

What the defense is arguing the prosecution lied about is a report that Todd Click sent to the prosecution in May. He was concerned that the PCA didn’t mention any of the investigation that he, Murphy, and Ferency (FBI, deceased) had put together and so sent a report directly to the prosecutor. Remember that the CCSO kicked the FBI off of the case in 2021.

The report mentioned their investigation of the Odinist symbols and the names mentioned in the defense’s memorandum. The prosecutor did not provide it as evidence to the defense and then lied under oath about having it in his possession.

An 85 page report plus a couple of videos is pretty big. Sent specifically to McLeland.
I'm really curious as to what all is in it.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

Defense memo page 43 and 44:

At his August 8, 2023, deposition, Sheriff Liggett was adamant that one person, and one
person alone – Richard Allen – was involved in the murder of Abby and Libby.34 However, off
record Liggett doesn’t believe that one man was capable of pulling off all of those tasks, especially
in such a short period of time, leaving behind a crime scene with no forensic evidence. As referred
to earlier, Liggett says one thing publicly under oath, but a different thing off-record to his buddies.
One of those buddies is former Sheriff (and now Chief Deputy Sheriff) Tobe Leazenby. The day
after Liggett’s August 8, 2023, deposition, Tobe Leazenby was subject to a deposition.
When Tobe Leazenby was asked at his deposition how many people he believed were
involved in the murder of Abby and Libby, Leazenby provided a different answer than Liggett. He
(Leazenby) indicated that “at least two” people were involved.35 The reasons Leazenby gave as to
his belief that “at least two” people were involved in the murders was Leazenby’s belief that “it
would be difficult for one individual to accomplish what occurred.”36
33 Again, Jerry Holeman testified in his deposition that investigators estimated the time of death as occurring
somewhere between 2:30 and 3:30 p.m. (Holeman depo., p. 17, lines 6-21).
34 Liggett depo. P. 67, lines 13-19
35 Leazenby depo. p. 19, lines 19-20.
36 Leazenby depo. p. 20, lines 9-10.
44
When asked if any other law enforcement officers shared this perspective, Leazenby
provided a surprising answer based upon what Liggett had testified to under oath the day before:
Yes, at least one other law enforcement officer believed multiple people were involved in the
murder of Abby and Libby: Tony Liggett. According to Leazenby’s sworn statement, it was
common for he (Leazenby) and Tony Liggett to have one-on-one conversations, and that Tony
Liggett definitely believed that more than one person was involved.37
Tony Liggett, who just the day before under oath claimed that only one person – Richard
Allen – was involved in the murders, privately behind the scenes, was saying something altogether
different in one-on-one conversations with his law enforcement friends.

At no point during this summary does it pin point exactly when this conversations between Leazenby and Liggett occurred. The theory/conversation could have occurred at any point during the investigation. I think it would be completely normal during an investigation to cast a wide net and entertain many possible suspects including the possibility of their being more than one party involved.
The point is that on August 8, 2023 that Liggett believed the murder was done by RA. There is no proof in this word salad that Liggett lied in a deposition. To indicate a lie occurred would mean that a conversation between Leazenby and Liggett would have had to taken place during a brief time span leading up to or directly after the deposition. This has not been established.
We are getting small blurbs of the quote and do not have a frame of reference. This is intentional. The question posed to Leazenby could have been: "Have you ever considered the possibility that ore than one persons was involved in the murder, and why?" In which he replied " yes, we thought early on in the investigation that there could have been more than one person involved in the murder due to it being labor intensive". The next obvious question would be "when did you change direction from this opinion and why?" But the defense doesn't ask this question because it doesn't want that answer. They only ask questions that can be used to lead to alternative suspects.

 

[Cyber sleuth]

An 85 page report plus a couple of videos is pretty big. Sent specifically to McLeland.
I'm really curious as to what all is in it.

Wasn't important enough include in the memorandum. Wonder why?

 

[Cyber sleuth]

What the defense is arguing the prosecution lied about is a report that Todd Click sent to the prosecution in May. He was concerned that the PCA didn’t mention any of the investigation that he, Murphy, and Ferency (FBI, deceased) had put together and so sent a report directly to the prosecutor. Remember that the CCSO kicked the FBI off of the case in 2021.

The report mentioned their investigation of the Odinist symbols and the names mentioned in the defense’s memorandum. The prosecutor did not provide it as evidence to the defense and then lied under oath about having it in his possession.

The report you referenced was send 7 months after the search warrant was issued and served and RA was arrested. Why would this have any reference on the search warrant being thrown out? Which is the purpose of the memorandum. If a previous LE has concerns then he has a right to express them and can even testify for the defense. But has no bearing on whether the search warrant is valid.

 

[Bergmann]

When I read the D's 136p memo I'm not convinced that they really intend for this to genuinely be the basis of their appeal to have the SW and all associated evidence collected to be ruled inadmissible (although I'm sure they'll try).

What I read is a D trying to do their best pre-trial to sow an awful lot of doubt in the minds of many (including perhaps those that might be selected in a jury pool at a later date) about the strength of the prosecution case; the weight and validity of evidence against their client; as well as suggesting that LE had better suspects not followed up.

All the Odinist cult stuff is just a vehicle to get it into the press and wider reach into the population (MOO).

I've been saying it for a long time now, I just can't see a Jan '24 trial proceeding on that timeline and there's going to be plenty more pre-trial positioning and point scoring before we do see RA in court and see actually what cards both sides really have in their hands.

 

[MistyWaters]

What the defense is arguing the prosecution lied about is a report that Todd Click sent to the prosecution in May. He was concerned that the PCA didn’t mention any of the investigation that he, Murphy, and Ferency (FBI, deceased) had put together and so sent a report directly to the prosecutor. Remember that the CCSO kicked the FBI off of the case in 2021.

The report mentioned their investigation of the Odinist symbols and the names mentioned in the defense’s memorandum. The prosecutor did not provide it as evidence to the defense and then lied under oath about having it in his possession.

I don’t believe for a moment that the FBI were kicked out anywhere. It’s far more likely the members of the FBI Terrorist Task Force left when it was concluded there was no Odinist involvement as their involvement would‘ve been concluded. Interesting the memo never mentions Click retired in 2021. The report was May of what year???

“At the time of the murders, Detective Greg Ferency was a detective with the Terre Haute Police Department assigned to the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force. Detective Kevin Murphy, of Indiana State Police, was also a member of that task force. Todd Click was an officer with Rushville Police.”

Delphi investigators: Defense 'twisting facts for sensationalism' over cult sacrifice claims

Richard Allen's public defenders have accused a white nationalist Odinist group of killing the girls in a ritualistic sacrifice.

www.courttv.com

“The court document also references a Rushville investigator's 85-page report, which claims the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit found "the individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs."

ISP investigators, however, dispute that assertion, saying the FBI unit never made such a finding.“

Delphi double homicide attorneys say victims were 'ritualistically sacrificed'

The newest twist in the case comes in a document dump Monday morning from Allen's attorneys, who are asking the judge to throw out evidence collected during a search of

www.wlfi.com

 

[MistyWaters]

When I read the D's 136p memo I'm not convinced that they really intend for this to genuinely be the basis of their appeal to have the SW and all associated evidence collected to be ruled inadmissible (although I'm sure they'll try).

What I read is a D trying to do their best pre-trial to sow an awful lot of doubt in the minds of many (including perhaps those that might be selected in a jury pool at a later date) about the strength of the prosecution case; the weight and validity of evidence against their client; as well as suggesting that LE had better suspects not followed up.

All the Odinist cult stuff is just a vehicle to get it into the press and wider reach into the population (MOO).

I've been saying it for a long time now, I just can't see a Jan '24 trial proceeding on that timeline and there's going to be plenty more pre-trial positioning and point scoring before we do see RA in court and see actually what cards both sides really have in their hands.

That’s correct. Because surely the defence doesn’t expect the Judge to waste her time searching through 123 pages of fluffy unprofessional nonsense to find the 13 pages that‘s relevant to the Frank’s hearing.

“McLeland said the 136-page memorandum from Allen's defense in support of a "Franks hearing," or a court proceeding in which a judge must determine whether a law enforcement officer lied in an effort to obtain a search warrant, contained only 13 pages that referenced "allegations relevant to the question of Franks inquiry."

"The remaining 90% of the Memorandum outlines its fanciful defense for social media to devour," he wrote.”

Prosecutors in Delphi murders case call pagan cult ritual narrative 'colorful, dramatic' and 'unprofessional'

Prosecutors in the Delphi murders case say a memo from suspect Richard Allen's defense team alleging that Libby German and Abby Williams were killed in a ritual is "fanciful."

news.yahoo.com

 

[Cyber sleuth]

I don’t believe for a moment that the FBI were kicked out anywhere. It’s far more likely the members of the FBI Terrorist Task Force left when it was concluded there was no Odinist involvement as their involvement would‘ve been concluded. Interesting the memo never mentions Click retired in 2021. The report was May of what year???

“At the time of the murders, Detective Greg Ferency was a detective with the Terre Haute Police Department assigned to the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force. Detective Kevin Murphy, of Indiana State Police, was also a member of that task force. Todd Click was an officer with Rushville Police.”

Delphi investigators: Defense 'twisting facts for sensationalism' over cult sacrifice claims

Richard Allen's public defenders have accused a white nationalist Odinist group of killing the girls in a ritualistic sacrifice.

www.courttv.com

“The court document also references a Rushville investigator's 85-page report, which claims the FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit found "the individual(s) responsible for the homicides were involved in Nordic beliefs."

ISP investigators, however, dispute that assertion, saying the FBI unit never made such a finding.“

Delphi double homicide attorneys say victims were 'ritualistically sacrificed'

The newest twist in the case comes in a document dump Monday morning from Allen's attorneys, who are asking the judge to throw out evidence collected during a search of

www.wlfi.com

Agree. FBI left when it was no longer involved their services. The memorandum wording made it seem that Click retired recently (after his letter was sent). Click is welcome to have an the opinion that the PCA evidence wasn't as compelling as the information he had gathered 5 years before. A PCA isn't supposed to have a 85-136 pages of information. It's supposed to be enough to show cause. Period. If judges had to look through a novel size report including nonsense tips and unfounded leads to grant search warrants we would still be waiting for arrests from the 19th century.

 

[Boxer]

Sticks above someone's head don't make antlers.
It's more likely that they were already on the ground where she was placed or they became tangled in her hair during her murder.

JMO

How about a panicked retail supervisor improvising and staging a rune strewn scene with what was on hand.

 

[Bergmann]

That’s correct. Because surely the defence doesn’t expect the Judge to waste her time searching through 123 pages of fluffy unprofessional nonsense to find the 13 pages that‘s relevant to the Frank’s hearing.

Fair but your opinion. We don't know what the judge presiding over this case makes of this, no matter our reaction.

“McLeland said the 136-page memorandum from Allen's defense in support of a "Franks hearing," or a court proceeding in which a judge must determine whether a law enforcement officer lied in an effort to obtain a search warrant, contained only 13 pages that referenced "allegations relevant to the question of Franks inquiry."

"The remaining 90% of the Memorandum outlines its fanciful defense for social media to devour," he wrote.”

Well he would say that wouldn't he?

Prosecution often try the accused in the court of the media pre-trial through leaks and feeding the press, and look to stack the deck, and when the D try to do the same they don't like it. And vice versa of course.

We'll find out who has what weight of evidence in the court room. From what I've seen from both sides so far I cannot form a reliable opinion of guilt or otherwise.

 

[MGF]

The defense is doing their job, sewing doubt.

The more important aspect of this motion to dismiss is we now have a picture of the investigation, and apparent infighting between lead investigators, and disagreements with the FBI. And we now have a fairly good depiction of the crime scene for the first time. This is all useful information.

The cult thing seems to be secondary, and the staging of the bodies seems to after-the-fact, and the stick placement could easily be a Rorschach thing as the killer(s?) moved the bodies from the kill site, and attempted to hide them. The police stated in the press conference after RA had been arrested that they were still looking for others. But it doesn't get RA off the hook.

 

[photographer4]

This Memo by Defense says RA's DNA wasn't at the crime scene, but TL said in interviews that there was fingerprints and DNA recovered.

Then I guess those didn't belong to RA so now have to wonder, what was his role in all of this????

 

[MistyWaters]

Fair but your opinion. We don't know what the judge presiding over this case makes of this, no matter our reaction.



Well he would say that wouldn't he?

Prosecution often try the accused in the court of the media pre-trial through leaks and feeding the press, and look to stack the deck, and when the D try to do the same they don't like it. And vice versa of course.

We'll find out who has what weight of evidence in the court room. From what I've seen from both sides so far I cannot form a reliable opinion of guilt or otherwise.

The 136 page memo is simply supporting a Frank’s Hearing to determine if LE lied when obtaining the search warrant. That’s all the Judge will be ruling on. At this point in time it’s evidence being argued during these hearings, the issue of his guilt or innocence comes later.

As others have mentioned, LE must’ve found very incriminating things during their search, forcing the defence to write a lengthy fantasy to attempt to have it all tossed. IMO just by the defence taking such desperate actions gives the appearance RA is guilty.

 

[zh0r4]

None of us have read any of the depositions etc cited here. We have no context for any of it. We have no idea what the defense is picking and choosing or what they are omitting. The defense can spin a half a sentence in RA’s favor while choosing not to mention the next two paragraphs that might be completely d*mning to him.
All of this is, again, nothing but the defense’s opinion on what is said in those depositions etc. It is not fact.
I will add, Liggett and Leazenby may have at some time thought more than one person committed the crime. They probably thought a lot of things during those 5+ years. They may have had that opinion up until the RA file fell in their lap and suddenly everything fell into place. They may have still wondered after RA’s arrest if somebody else helped him. I’m sure they looked into that. They are allowed to change their minds when confronted with solid evidence against someone. That is not lying.
I just want all this ridiculousness to stop. I want the circus to leave town and the adults to start working this case. I want the trial sooner than later to finally get some real answers.
I want justice for Libby and Abby and their families.

From my understanding Leazenby’s personal opinion was recently, from August 2023. Here is a list of deposition dates I made from the memo (it doesn’t include all/isn’t finished):

Deposed by defense:

Click (April 2023)

ISP Jerry Holeman (deposed between April-Aug 28 2023)

Carrol Co. Sheriff Liggett (deposed 8/8/2023)

Carrol Co. Chief Dep Sheriff - Leazenby (deposed 8/9/2023)

 

[zh0r4]

Wasn't important enough include in the memorandum. Wonder why?

The defense didn’t compile the 85-page report, it wasn’t the defenses’ work.

 

[MistyWaters]

From my understanding Leazenby’s personal opinion was recently, from August 2023. Here is a list of deposition dates I made from the memo (it doesn’t include all/isn’t finished):

Deposed by defense:

Click (April 2023)

ISP Jerry Holeman (deposed between April-Aug 28 2023)

Carrol Co. Sheriff Liggett (deposed 8/8/2023)

Carrol Co. Chief Dep Sheriff - Leazenby (deposed 8/9/2023)

It seems unusual that two of those four were no longer working in their stated capacity at the time they were deposed, meaning current information wouldn’t be shared with them. Click retired in 2021 and Leazenby lost the election to Sheriff Liggett in 2022. The personal opinion of people no longer associated with the case becomes entirely insignificant, not that LE opinions ever mattered considering it’s the responsibility of the Prosecutor’s Office to files charges.

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... Liggett, who later that year won the 2022 election for Sheriff. Furthermore ... Todd Leazenbyshared his own. “I feel a court of law is the proper and ...