IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #168

[MistyWaters]

Maybe they’re scratching about trying to find something more substantial than what was put in the PCA lol

Maybe what’s lacking is the understanding that a probable cause supporting a search warrant or an arrest is not a summary of a prosecutions full case?

ETA -
"Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction. Even hearsay can supply probable cause if it is from a reliable source or supported by other evidence, according to the Aguilar–Spinelli test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause#:~:text=%22Probable%20cause%22%20is%20a%20stronger,to%20the%20Aguilar–Spinelli%20test.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I don't understand how someone who claims to support the D and RA and is "blasting the prosecution" will then turn around and do something that he almost has to know has the potential to damage the D and RA.

The truth whether it's favorable or not usually always finds a way of coming out IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

If that's the case, then we haven't seen the totality of the leak and maybe no damage has been done.

I've never seen anyone asking for every last detail. If LE had not been so mysterious from the very beginning, maybe we wouldn't have been desperately searching so hard to find anything. If we aren't web sleuths, then what are we?

This website is named Websleuths but surely no one believes that means we are expected to have privileged access to confidential information?

 

[FrostedGlass]

This website is named Websleuths but surely no one believes that means we are expected to have privileged access to confidential information?

I was answering to what you said here.

ETA I’ve never seen another case where followers of it act so indignant, literally feel slighted, toward LE for not being informed of every last detail prior to the trial. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

I was answering to what you said here.

Okay but the word “followers“ is a generalized term which includes SM and other discussion sites. My opinion isn’t about to change, it’s perplexing why *some followers of this case believe they’re entitled to know all the evidence prior to the prosecution presenting their case at trial. That’s the entire point of a trial being held and what is essential to the integrity of the justice system IMO.

*some not all

 

[somequestions]

There are cold cases solved recently solved by new DNA techniques that are one off murders.
There is apparently a class of (male) murderers that commit one murder, scare themselves and as far as the investigators can discover have only committed the one murder.

These single murders often have a theme of victimizing underage girls or vulnerable women.

This is an interesting point.

Now that we know a little bit more about the murders and the crime scene information, would a psychologist think the person that committed this crime was a one off murderer?

I think it is very unique someone would abduct and kill two teenage girls for their first crime, but that has happened. I thought it would turn out to be a serial killer who committed this crime, even if a long period of time had passed since. The killer always seemed to me to be a patient individual.

 

[girlhasnoname]

If that's the case, then we haven't seen the totality of the leak and maybe no damage has been done.

I've never seen anyone asking for every last detail. If LE had not been so mysterious from the very beginning, maybe we wouldn't have been desperately searching so hard to find anything. If we aren't web sleuths, then what are we?

I believe the mystery and gag order was put in place because of the heinous nature of the crime and details. JMO

 

[O.Incandenza]

RSBM

They frequently have good info and discussion but they really need an editor. You generally have to skip past the first 5 mins just to get past all the intro comments and windup.

I find the podcasts are way too long and repetitive compared to the actual new content, but perhaps others appreciate the conversational approach

02c

What has been made clear on this case is that reporters involved have had a lot of info that has not been public

Yeah, I appreciate them because they do seem to focus on actual info instead of wild speculation and they occasionally have good sources. However, they're not a fun listen. The conversational style works for podcast hosts that have good charisma and chemistry, and that is not them IMO.

 

[MistyWaters]

I believe the mystery and gag order was put in place because of the heinous nature of the crime and details. JMO

IIRC what prompted the gag order motion by the prosecution was a press release issued by the defence early on. I doubt think the Judge will be the least bit impressed with the defence over the recent happenings. Not only about the photo leaks, but the 136 page memo that was written prior to the defence receiving the complete discovery file from the state. That looked to be intentional as it enabled the defence to make open-ended allegations that may well have been addressed in the remaining discovery they hadn’t looked at.

I can’t help but notice at one time the defence had a concern about a tainted jury pool if the trial has been held in Carroll County. Now I’m suspicious about the reason for that as they don’t seem genuinely concerned over tainting in the least. I wonder, might that have to do with RA’s local reputation which they are now so desperate to wash clean where he’s an unknown?

“Allen’s defense asked Judge Gull for a change in venue, citing “extensive media attention” and the “highly publicized” nature of the case as reasons to move the trial 150 miles away in order to “reduce the likelihood of obtaining a tainted jury pool.”

Judge issues gag order in Delphi case

People close to the Delphi case will no longer be able to talk about it at least until after a January hearing.

fox59.com

(Just to mention this link is a fox affiliate from Indianapolis. Tricia has clarified the Fox ban does not extend to local news affiliate reporting but noticing a couple of my posts removed there might still be some confusion).

 

[O.Incandenza]

can we confirm the defence might be thrown out for this ?
also..arent they appointed by the goverment ? why are they going for all or nothing including risking reputation

I think it will depend on the actual lawyers' involvement in the leak. If it's just a case of someone not directly involved in the case who was able to access their files (ex-employee, PI, etc) and then leaked them, then it's a bad look for the lawyers but not really a direct ethical violation.

If they were directly involved in the leak, then that's different. But it gets complicated. If RA wants to keep them as his lawyers then there could be real issues with depriving a murder defendant of his chosen representation. The judge might instead opt for sanctions against the lawyers.

 

[girlhasnoname]

IIRC what prompted the gag order motion by the prosecution was a press release issued by the defence early on. I doubt think the Judge will be the least bit impressed with the defence over the recent happenings. Not only about the photo leaks, but the 136 page memo that was written prior to the defence receiving the complete discovery file from the state. That looked to be intentional as it enabled the defence to make open-ended allegations that may well have been addressed in the remaining discovery they hadn’t looked at.

I can’t help but notice at one time the defence had a concern about a tainted jury pool if the trial has been held in Carroll County. Now I’m suspicious about the reason for that as they don’t seem genuinely concerned over tainting in the least. I wonder, might that have to do with RA’s local reputation which they are now so desperate to wash clean where he’s an unknown?

“Allen’s defense asked Judge Gull for a change in venue, citing “extensive media attention” and the “highly publicized” nature of the case as reasons to move the trial 150 miles away in order to “reduce the likelihood of obtaining a tainted jury pool.”

Judge issues gag order in Delphi case

People close to the Delphi case will no longer be able to talk about it at least until after a January hearing.

fox59.com

(Just to mention this link is a fox affiliate from Indianapolis. Tricia has clarified the Fox ban does not extend to local news affiliate reporting but noticing a couple of my posts removed there might still be some confusion).

Ah yes, the famous 3 page "Rick ain't guilty" press release by the Defense on blank copy paper early on. They were pushing it even then IMO.

 

[Bergmann]

Maybe what’s lacking is the understanding that a probable cause supporting a search warrant or an arrest is not a summary of a prosecutions full case?

ETA -
"Probable cause" is a stronger standard of evidence than a reasonable suspicion, but weaker than what is required to secure a criminal conviction. Even hearsay can supply probable cause if it is from a reliable source or supported by other evidence, according to the Aguilar–Spinelli test.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Probable_cause#:~:text=%22Probable%20cause%22%20is%20a%20stronger,to%20the%20Aguilar–Spinelli%20test.

It was a joke

 

[StarryStarryNight]

If that's the case, then we haven't seen the totality of the leak and maybe no damage has been done.

I've never seen anyone asking for every last detail. If LE had not been so mysterious from the very beginning, maybe we wouldn't have been desperately searching so hard to find anything. If we aren't web sleuths, then what are we?

The point is not so much how much damage to the case was done, which, I personally think was plenty, but the fact that there was a leak at all.
A leak of information that was under a protective order that had the defense and prosecution sign to strictly adhere to and included everyone in their offices that worked with the information.
A leak that happened even though the defense had been called out earlier for allowing something to slip out.
The amount of damage done will have to be dealt with, but the issue right now is it happened in clear violation of the protective order…again…and under the defense’s watch.
I was highly critical during the investigation of the lack of information released by LE. I felt it hindered the investigation. Still do.
Somehow spinning things around to blame the leak on LE seems misguided at best.

 

[Emma Peel]

I don't understand how someone who claims to support the D and RA and is "blasting the prosecution" will then turn around and do something that he almost has to know has the potential to damage the D and RA.

Good point. I gather, (b/c admissions were found on right on FaceBook), Leaker is not a sophisticated thinker.

Leaker was concerned for their own personal safety, however.

And Leaker may have realized the consequences if/when LE called them with regard to the leak.

Per the article, in the their Facebook messages, the (now dead) leaker asked their co-conspirator for "protection". Also article: there are several layers of leaking here, the leaker's source was "going to be with Andy".

Per the Murder Sheet podcast, MS was easily able to "investigate", read and screen-shot the Leaker's FB messages ... and these FB messages were all about leaking. (Which - I would assert - is not the technique of a Defense-managed "leaker".)

I'm wondering if because the Defense Team is from out of town, they hire local assistance. Local folks that are temps on the case. And as we've seen, the locals have long had various issues (accusations of corruptions) with the local investigation team ... and emotional attachments that cloud judgement.

IMO and In my view, there may be contempt raised with the Defense Team as they are ultimately responsible for the leak ... but the Court will consider the chain of the leak and the emotional state of the leaker. The Court must seriously weigh the damage to the case, the delays, and the defendant's current psych condition before pulling the rug out from under RA's defense.

The contents of the leak may somehow support D Memo. HOWEVER - with regard to the MERITS of the Defense Memo being considered by the Court: The Court will approve/deny motions related to the recent D Memo ON MERIT ALONE. JMHO, this leak is not the end of the D Memo. A brand new Defense team can just pick up that D Memo where it was left off and the Court would have to still deal with THE MERITS on the same issue.

The "consequences" statement in the FOX article is EXACTLY that of MS podcast ... and I don't think that statement considers all the nuance ... and the psych condition of both leaker and defendant. Nor does any of that opining about consequences address the MERIT of the D Memo.

See below, the leaker, suddenly deceased, asking for protection on their FB page. Good grief.

article link again:

Indiana State Police reportedly investigating evidence leak in Delphi murder case

In another message from earlier this month, the Facebook author writes he is supposed to go to Franklin during the upcoming weekend and that he just wants, “a fair fight,” for the defense while blasting the prosecution.

That was followed up by a handful of messages from Oct. 5 as the same participant refers to, “my guy,” and, “He’s going to be with Andy tonight. He was talking about me going down Saturday.”

There are also messages where the sender asks the recipient to, “protect me,” in the release of evidentiary items as the two correspondents discuss how best to cover their tracks while referring, presumably, to an individual involved in the inadvertent leak of defense evidence last spring.

JMHO: an MS comment - Finding it ironic that MS seems to have "leaks" all the time ... but on this occasion ... the leak was in favor of defense AND not up to their "ethical standards".

 

[Emma Peel]

I think it will depend on the actual lawyers' involvement in the leak. If it's just a case of someone not directly involved in the case who was able to access their files (ex-employee, PI, etc) and then leaked them, then it's a bad look for the lawyers but not really a direct ethical violation.

If they were directly involved in the leak, then that's different. But it gets complicated. If RA wants to keep them as his lawyers then there could be real issues with depriving a murder defendant of his chosen representation. The judge might instead opt for sanctions against the lawyers.

Yes. I just posted something in agreement. There's nuance to be considered. Sanctions due to temporary local hires behaviors ... may not be in order. Up to the Court's discretion.

AND the Court will consider defendant's preference as to starting over with new counsel; and part of that will involve consideration of defendant's psych eval.

All MOO

 

[scapa]

It was a long and winding slog but I listened.

Sounded like MS had a rough week.

JMHO, the first tell is that MS starts this episode asserting that the episode is not about the case but about the podcasters who podcast around the case. Hmmm.

(Journalism Rule #1. Reporters should not become the story.)

MS then ends the podcast asserting that this is all about the case which is now in some type of jeopardy of having the defense team removed.

(Okay, so it is about the case after all?)

During the podcast, MS laid out a social media caper timeline:
crime-scene-photo leak - quickly spreads to podcasters and social media - MS responsible podcast holds back - a mole reaches out - text screens are shot - leaker is ID'd - "research" on FB is performed - LE is informed - Defense is informed - and in the end - the leaker's suicide ...
all related to the Delhi case.

MS eventually turned in (to the Indiana State Police), the crime scene photos in their possession, along with their research info as to source of leak.

Then, MS called the Defense to notify them as well "to be fair".

Essentially, MS inserts itself into this case. (I'm not judging. Just saying. It was voluntary.)

Does this make MS a witness in this case?

(IMO seems a bit odd, that MS would take it upon themselves to call the Defense. LE or P would have to tell D. Weird they felt that was necessary. One of these podcasters has a law practice so ... law-bro code?)

It felt to me that the leak and ... the leaker's suicide ... were the real stories here.

It felt to me like MS decided THEY wanted to tell the story b/4 someone else did.

*********
Let's assume the MS timeline and leak story - are accurately portrayed.

IMO, I think we'd need to take a beat and think about how leaked facts - that the Defense already has possession of - hurts the Defense, hurts RA, hurts the Prosecution, hurts LE, hurts the victims/family, hurts the Press?

Harm to LE Investigation
I can see how it hurts the ongoing LE investigation (which LE - last we knew - insists is ongoing?)
MS "reports" how grateful LE was and how seriously they took the leak.
I would think LE would be devastated.

Harm to Defense - Disciplinary?
MS doesn't say how their "we have the leaked crime scene photos and notified ISP" conversation went with the Defense.

If the leak came from defense side (MS has not explained this, only loosely implied a connection)
- that's against rules. It's also against gag order. Warning or Contempt of Court? BUT BUT BUT ...
(as MS describes) we now have the leaker's psychological state in play and under question. Is the leaker's judgement the defense's fault here? MS doesn't say how the "we have the leaked crime scene photos" chat went with the Defense.

IMO, MS speculating the viability of the defense team or the defense's case due to the leak - seems a bit over the top. Removing RA's defense team, if they are vigorously repping RA... slows the case ... and ... gives RA reason to question the fairness of trial when they pull the rug out from under him for something that's not his fault.

Harm to Facts/Both Prosecution and Defense
As to the damage of facts (crime scene photos) being released to public (inappropriately) - they'd be presented at trial. They'd be kept private/jury/experts/court only. What's the damage if the facts are widely seen? (I think nothing but public opinion pre-trial would be affected - and that is already a national problem and that problem already exists in spades.)

Harm to RA.
Venue? Can he still have a fair trial? (I think yes.) Maybe now he's assured of a trial open to the public? Which is what he asked for.

Harm to Victim/Family:
They might have a case. I don't know; I haven't researched it. Perhaps against anyone that monetized them. The leaker? Against those (podcasters etc) that monetize their social media? Against any advertisers. (On this - high-five to the ethical Murder Sheet!)

Harm to the 4th Estate:
As to damage to the Press. None.

All things considered ... Is MS expecting their involvement to make it into the court record? Is MS a new witness? Are they getting ahead of the court news cycle?

And I do agree w/ MS; the leak was massively disrespectful to the process, family, and victims.

(Forgive me but ... listening to 29 minutes of chiding for 4 minutes of news ... that was painful.)

Great summary -- many thanks.

Agree on the frequently self-righteous tone of this particular pod, but that now seems endemic within a community that seems to have polaraized around "professional" and tabloid "click-baiting." Not sure the distinction stands up to scrutiny, esp given that most are now sponsored.

This is all pretty awful, but can't see the DT being removed as a solution to a possible problem with illicit transmission of evidence. Hopefully these pix do NOT find their way to X or other forums where s***posting no longer seems to have any boundaries.

This case has become as exhausting as it is sad. I am so so sorry for the families and friends that have to cope with every new "bombshell."

 

[StarryStarryNight]

I think it will depend on the actual lawyers' involvement in the leak. If it's just a case of someone not directly involved in the case who was able to access their files (ex-employee, PI, etc) and then leaked them, then it's a bad look for the lawyers but not really a direct ethical violation.

If they were directly involved in the leak, then that's different. But it gets complicated. If RA wants to keep them as his lawyers then there could be real issues with depriving a murder defendant of his chosen representation. The judge might instead opt for sanctions against the lawyers.

The lawyers are responsible for everything that happens, and everybody that works for them in their office. Add to that that the leaked material is graphic crime scene photos of two murdered children, and this not just a “oops, sorry about that” issue.
These lawyers have already been upbraided by this judge for leaking information before.
Their early statement playing free and loose declaring RA’s innocence drew a gag order from the judge.
They have since gotten around the gag order by issuing their free and loose ramblings in the guise of motions and memorandums.
I think the judge is very much fed up with them. It puts her in a tough spot.
If she decides to keep them and just fine them or something, she cannot go overboard on her admonishment of them because it might be predudicial to RA going forward.
If she dismisses them the trial will be delayed but the defense will get a fresh start, untainted by all this.
Personally, I think she needs to dismiss these clowns. They are the sole reason this very serious tragic brutal murder case has tanked into the absurd.

edit: typo

 

[girlhasnoname]

The lawyers are responsible for everything that happens, and everybody that works for them in their office. Add to that that the leaked material is graphic crime scene photos of two murdered children, and this not just a “oops, sorry about that” issue.
These lawyers have already been upbraided by this judge for leaking information before.
Their early statement playing free and loose declaring RA’s innocence drew a gag order from the judge.
They have since gotten around the gag order by issuing their free and loose ramblings in the guise of motions and memorandums.
I think the judge is very much fed up with them. It puts he in a tough spot.
If she decides to keep them and just fine them or something, she cannot go overboard on her admonishment of them because it might be predudicial to RA going forward.
If she dismisses them the trial will be delayed but the defense will get a fresh start, untainted all this.
Personally, I think she needs to dismiss these clowns. They are the sole reason this very serious tragic brutal murder case has tanked into the absurd.

Right, and regardless of whether the Defense stays in place or not, I doubt very seriously this case will even be near ready in Jan 24. I look more towards mid to late '24 if then.

MOO

 

[Emma Peel]

If the D cannot manage and control sensitive information and they get rebuked for this by Gull at the hearing this week, then they've also totally shot themselves in the foot in terms of credibility to point the finger at P in a Franks hearing. If they're even still on the case at that point.

Really disappointing.

I'd like to offer hope here ... any Franks hearing motion must be considered upon the merits of the written arguments and nothing else. Given this is an extremely high profile case ... the microscope is also on the Court (judge). JMO.

 

[Vern]

I suppose that I'm showing up late to the game with this link knowing WS posters, but posting just in case it hasn't been shared:

Indiana State Police reportedly investigating evidence leak in Delphi murder case

DELPHI, Ind. — An investigation by “The Murder Sheet” podcast, certain elements of which have been confirmed by CBS4, indicates an alleged leak of sensitive crime scene evidence by Rich…

cbs4indy.com

...
That tip led the podcasters to confirm the identities of persons associated with the leaked information.

One of those persons identified is reportedly a former professional associate of Baldwin’s.

Facebook messages reviewed by CBS4 contain discussions by two other people — a man from Hamilton County who reportedly received the information from the former Baldwin associate, and a Texas man with whom he shared that information.

...
ISP reportedly launched its investigation into the leak early last week, which would have preceded Judge Gull’s Thursday morning notice of an upcoming hearing to consider, “other matters which have recently arisen.”

CBS4 has learned that an individual named as one of the social media followers involved in the leak died unexpectedly this past week after investigators began their inquiry.