IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #170

[TL4S]

If he's not competent to make decisions regarding his own representation that's a whole separate issue and the whole trial would have to be put on hold. But until there's an actual finding that he's not competent, you can't overrule his decisions on that basis. That would be an incredible catch-22. "You're not competent enough to decide who represents you in court. But you're definitely competent enough to be tried for murder." That's Kafka-esque.

I might be misunderstanding the legal issues here, but didn't the ex-D specifically express that they had not sought any kind of competency evaluations? And the judge ruled against the P getting RA's medical records, iirc. There was an earlier motion to have RA transferred due to possible mental decline, but not since, afaik. Even if RA really did have a mental breakdown (eating paperwork), it does not mean his mental health has to be treated as an ongoing issue, does it?

 

[MistyWaters]

I mean, it could be, but where is the finding of conflict, much less gross negligence?

ETA: these issues would be much less concerning if there were a semblance of proper "due process" in procedure.

There wouldn’t be much to debate if what constituted the ‘gross negligence’ was deemed to be either a fact or pure fluff. As for now, as the ex-D denies they committed it, they’re far too biased to clear the air.

However if the information involving ‘gross negligence’ was specially disclosed by the court could that potentially harm RA’s right to a fair trial? If the court (or a higher court) decides the answer is yes then the public won’t know what occurred until after the dust settles following the trial.

JMO

 

[EllaMinnowP]

I am really confused about the sentiments from so many people suggesting that an innocent man sits in prison for 2 years while awaiting trial.
Yes, I realize he is in prison and not jail. I do understand that it isn't typical for someone to be housed in that manner.

My question is this:
Is this outrage about his housing more than anything else ? I really want to understand.

Would people feel better if he sat in jail?
What if he was in jail and that put him in more physical danger? He would not have access to the psychiatric help that he currently has available to him now. There are other reasons that have been presented for his location.

Anyway, is this the core of the outrage, or do people truly believe him to be innocent? Because I don't think it's crazy for 2 years to be the wait time for getting to trial. Am I wrong about that?

Also, since I am asking, for those who are upset about another year passing, what about the family and the sympathy for almost 7 years of living without their children? The wait continues for them as well.


JMO

Obviously, I can only speak for myself here, but I’m more than happy to share a few reasons why I have reservations about RA being the perp, since you asked.

I’m not comfortable with the course of the investigation from the minute A&L’s bodies were found. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but I’ve not seen anything that raises my level of confidence about what/how evidence was collected.

The 2 sketches bearing no resemblance to one another fiasco still grinds my gears. We’re told to completely disregard the first one, because they’re 2 different men. Then we’re told, oh, we think the suspect will look like a combo of the 2 sketches.

I never got a good feeling about Tobe Leasenby, and I think Doug Carter comes off phony in all of his talking. I was grossed out by his constant sniffing during the PC for the arrest announcement. It just seemed like he was TRYING to appear emotional.

There was all of the talk about a rift in CCSO where one deputy felt his take on the investigation was not being handled properly, and maybe he was taken off the case. I’m talking about the political dust-up that occurred. Sorry I can’t remember their names. I just don’t feel good about the level of professionalism (lack thereof) that has been displayed.

I was willing to let myself be creeped out by RA’s mugshot. When I saw the arrest affidavit, though, I had many more questions than answers. To say I wasn’t impressed is an understatement. I felt badly that I judged RA’s appearance. What makes me such a prize, afterall?! I wouldn’t want ppl thinking I committed unspeakable crimes just because I’m not pretty to look at.

I won’t go into the KAK conversation, but there is that. And the many “tentacles” that are said to be responsible for the murders. Which leads me to mention my reservations about the unusual way (moo) that RA has been charged with Felony Murder, along with Nick McCleland saying the investigation is ongoing with possibly more suspects involved, etcetera.

Next, we have the CC judge who signed the AA and search warrants recusing himself in strictly dramatic and unprofessional looking fashion.

RA being transferred to prison for his safety before he had representation. I realize that his attorney situation was partly his own fault, but still, it doesn’t set well with me the way things happened.

All of this before the shenanigans that we’ve seen since RA has had a defense team.

I don’t believe that RA is innocent OR guilty. My ‘outrage’ (if we label it as such) is directed at the lack of transparency surrounding procedures. and my feeling that the authorities (LE, prosecution, judges) are not trustworthy.

As an American citizen, I am befuddled that we can be imprisoned for 2 years without due process. I can’t answer how common it is, though. As a human being, I hate to think of someone being held as a suspect for that long, ESPECIALLY without damning evidence against them. Perhaps that evidence exists. If RA’s the guy, I truly, deeply hope hard evidence exists and that they can hang him on it to the fullest extent of the law.

I’ve been in the camp that believes RA is guilty, then not sure, then guilty, and now I’m back to not sure. And leaning a different way today.

I don’t pretend to be able to fathom the losses that A&L’s families must shoulder, nor how they feel about all of the recent drama. It’s too much for me to think about. I desperately want them to have whatever justice they can get. They deserve that much. I’ll bet they wouldn’t appreciate finding out that an innocent person was convicted, with the person/ people who ripped their hearts out still roaming free.

This has been going on for so long that there are probably many topics that I didn’t cover, which give me pause about how this case has been handled. If you’ve made through this far in my post, though, kudos and thanks for considering. I’ll bet no one else will soon be asking me how I feel about something..

 

[MistyWaters]

Accused Delphi killer gets new attorneys; motions to block removal pending

Suspected Delphi killer Richard Allen has new court-appointed attorneys over his objection, for the time being.

www.jconline.com

“Baldwin and Rozzi claimed in April that Allen's mental health was in jeopardy and asked Gull to modify his pretrial incarceration to a county jail closer to Carroll County.

That motion was denied.

Allen's appearance in court Tuesday was the first time the public has seen him since his hearing in June, in which he appeared gaunt and unhealthy.

Gull noted that there were still several motions pending before the court, including a motion to suppress evidence gathered during a search of Allen's home and a Franks hearing that challenges the truthfulness of police in obtaining the search warrant for Allen's home.

No dates for these matters were set during Tuesday's hearing.

Baldwin and Rozzi indicated they could return the state's discovery evidence to Carroll County Prosecutor Nick McLeland by the end of the week.

Gull gave Baldwin and Rozzi the option of working with Scremin and Labrato, but she left it as a request, not an order.….”

 

[Emma Peel]

I might be misunderstanding the legal issues here, but didn't the ex-D specifically express that they had not sought any kind of competency evaluations? And the judge ruled against the P getting RA's medical records, iirc. There was an earlier motion to have RA transferred due to possible mental decline, but not since, afaik. Even if RA really did have a mental breakdown (eating paperwork), it does not mean his mental health has to be treated as an ongoing issue, does it?

I'm thinking:
There's this magic thing called meds.
Deep depression affects cognition ... and can be treated w/ meds.
(look at the weight gain)
A patient's cognition can improve w/ meds that suppress anxiety. MOO

 

[zh0r4]

The judge in the Delphi murders hearing has agreed to push the trial back for Richard Allen to October 2024.

https://x.com/WTHRcom/status/1719356192084893749?s=20

Tuesday's hearing started 40 minutes late. The judge told Richard Allen, "I cannot and will not allow these attorneys to represent you." She then disqualified Baldwin and Rozzi from representing him, even pro bono.
New attorneys set a trial date for Oct. 15-31 of 2024. The new attorneys have not talked to the state yet. A return of discovery is coming by end of week.
Baldwin's attorney spoke to the judge about his disqualification. He said the judge did not give them notice of the alleged "gross negligence" on the defense's part, so they were not prepared for the ruling on them not representing Allen. He said the judge's summary ruling violates the constitution and is unfair to Richard Allen and his defense.

dbm

 

[CGBSpender]

Changing the subject for a moment...has there been any more insight as to the motive behind the alleged leaks by the D's associate and/or the subsequent person(s) that communicated the leaked information to others? I'm confused by the intent and what they hoped to accomplish as a result?

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

You're talking about Rozzi's filings? I thought you were talking about the filings last night. Rozzi's motion to DQ her was filed to her court, not the Indiana Supreme Court. (Exhibit N) (ETA she ordered it stricken from the record and stated the court would not entertain it)

jmo

What's being heard then by the SC?

 

[Emma Peel]

Well iirc RA once again recently confirmed he was indigent so that doesn’t give the court the right to toss him out into the cold (figuratively) especially since the court claims his pro bono attorneys previously committed gross negligence when they were being paid to defend him.

Somebody’s got to look out for him or perhaps D&G are going to have to backtrack on allegations of mental issues. But then there’s the five confessions. JMO

IMO, Pro-bono lawyers step up all the time to represent the indigent as private counsel.

I might be having trouble also b/c indigent is not necessarily equivalent to "intellectually impaired".

 

[Ravenmoon]

Obviously, I can only speak for myself here, but I’m more than happy to share a few reasons why I have reservations about RA being the perp, since you asked.

I’m not comfortable with the course of the investigation from the minute A&L’s bodies were found. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist, but I’ve not seen anything that raises my level of confidence about what/how evidence was collected.

The 2 sketches bearing no resemblance to one another fiasco still grinds my gears. We’re told to completely disregard the first one, because they’re 2 different men. Then we’re told, oh, we think the suspect will look like a combo of the 2 sketches.

I never got a good feeling about Tobe Leasenby, and I think Doug Carter comes off phony in all of his talking. I was grossed out by his constant sniffing during the PC for the arrest announcement. It just seemed like he was TRYING to appear emotional.

There was all of the talk about a rift in CCSO where one deputy felt his take on the investigation was not being handled properly, and maybe he was taken off the case. I’m talking about the political dust-up that occurred. Sorry I can’t remember their names. I just don’t feel good about the level of professionalism (lack thereof) that has been displayed.

I was willing to let myself be creeped out by RA’s mugshot. When I saw the arrest affidavit, though, I had many more questions than answers. To say I wasn’t impressed is an understatement. I felt badly that I judged RA’s appearance. What makes me such a prize, afterall?! I wouldn’t want ppl thinking I committed unspeakable crimes just because I’m not pretty to look at.

I won’t go into the KAK conversation, but there is that. And the many “tentacles” that are said to be responsible for the murders. Which leads me to mention my reservations about the unusual way (moo) that RA has been charged with Felony Murder, along with Nick McCleland saying the investigation is ongoing with possibly more suspects involved, etcetera.

Next, we have the CC judge who signed the AA and search warrants recusing himself in strictly dramatic and unprofessional looking fashion.

RA being transferred to prison for his safety before he had representation. I realize that his attorney situation was partly his own fault, but still, it doesn’t set well with me the way things happened.

All of this before the shenanigans that we’ve seen since RA has had a defense team.

I don’t believe that RA is innocent OR guilty. My ‘outrage’ (if we label it as such) is directed at the lack of transparency surrounding procedures. and my feeling that the authorities (LE, prosecution, judges) are not trustworthy.

As an American citizen, I am befuddled that we can be imprisoned for 2 years without due process. I can’t answer how common it is, though. As a human being, I hate to think of someone being held as a suspect for that long, ESPECIALLY without damning evidence against them. Perhaps that evidence exists. If RA’s the guy, I truly, deeply hope hard evidence exists and that they can hang him on it to the fullest extent of the law.

I’ve been in the camp that believes RA is guilty, then not sure, then guilty, and now I’m back to not sure. And leaning a different way today.

I don’t pretend to be able to fathom the losses that A&L’s families must shoulder, nor how they feel about all of the recent drama. It’s too much for me to think about. I desperately want them to have whatever justice they can get. They deserve that much. I’ll bet they wouldn’t appreciate finding out that an innocent person was convicted, with the person/ people who ripped their hearts out still roaming free.

This has been going on for so long that there are probably many topics that I didn’t cover, which give me pause about how this case has been handled. If you’ve made through this far in my post, though, kudos and thanks for considering. I’ll bet no one else will soon be asking me how I feel about something..

I really appreciate your response. It gives me things to mull over.

I suppose for me, I go back to the place that we all started from. That place would be the bridge. RA was there. That is a fact. He described the clothing that he wore that day. Those clothes match the man that walked across the bridge on Libby's video. He said he saw the teenage girls who also saw him walking quickly towards the bridge. They have evidence showing their last photo was taken just before 1:30 PM. RA was walking toward the bridge as they were departing. Another woman spotted him standing on the bridge in the place that he himself confirmed that he stood on.

I know that all of the above is circumstancial evidence. But there is more. I assume there is a lot we don't know.

I agree with you and others that feel like the lack of transparency is problematic and wrong. I don't think that the work that was done early on was perfect, or even really professional.

But I see absolutely no reason for RA to be arrested and charged after 6 years if there is no evidence. Why would they pick a man like RA with no cause? The case was not handled well initially, but I don't believe that the LE is evil or intentionally setting an innocent man.

Let's not forget, he admitted several times that he killed the girls.
JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

IMO, Pro-bono lawyers step up all the time to represent the indigent as private counsel.

I might be having trouble also b/c indigent is not necessarily equivalent to "intellectually impaired".

No not necessarily however is could be a factor.

However I think we should move along with the latest events……D&B are now off the case, formally disqualified. IMO no higher court is going to order that RA’s attorneys be reinstated to represent him probono.

 

[sunshineray]

There wouldn’t be much to debate if what constituted the ‘gross negligence’ was deemed to be either a fact or pure fluff. As for now, as the ex-D denies they committed it, they’re far too biased to clear the air.

However if the information involving ‘gross negligence’ was specially disclosed by the court could that potentially harm RA’s right to a fair trial? If the court (or a higher court) decides the answer is yes then the public won’t know what occurred until after the dust settles following the trial.

JMO

That's what I was thinking was in the works, the SC being tapped to review JG's actions in facilitating the withdrawal of RA's attorneys and their filings that came after their withdrawls. But I now understand it to be, that stuff, to only be filed in the lower court? What then are the SC looking into? It's like it's all compartmentalized when it should all be considered together. It's all such a jumble.

Is no court, high or low, at present looking into why the judge considered the D grossly negligent and took the actions she did?

 

[Emma Peel]

The judge in the Delphi murders hearing has agreed to push the trial back for Richard Allen to October 2024.

https://x.com/WTHRcom/status/1719356192084893749?s=20

Tuesday's hearing started 40 minutes late. The judge told Richard Allen, "I cannot and will not allow these attorneys to represent you." She then disqualified Baldwin and Rozzi from representing him, even pro bono.
New attorneys set a trial date for Oct. 15-31 of 2024. The new attorneys have not talked to the state yet. A return of discovery is coming by end of week.
Baldwin's attorney spoke to the judge about his disqualification. He said the judge did not give them notice of the alleged "gross negligence" on the defense's part, so they were not prepared for the ruling on them not representing Allen. He said the judge's summary ruling violates the constitution and is unfair to Richard Allen and his defense.

Thank you. And... requoted by me:

He said the judge's summary ruling violates the constitution and is unfair to Richard Allen and his defense.

it ain't over.

(moo)

 

[AugustWest]

I really appreciate your response. It gives me things to mull over.I suppose for me, I go back to the place that we all started from. That place would be the bridge. RA was there. That is a fact.

Respectfully sbm, @Ravenmoon

This is not, at all, a fact as it pertains to the court. The court has no record of this at all; we aren't at trial yet, and the jury is the finder of fact.

 

[Ravenmoon]

Respectfully sbm, @Ravenmoon

This is not, at all, a fact as it pertains to the court. The court has no record of this at all; we aren't at trial yet, and the jury is the finder of fact.

Thank you.
I was speaking more from the perspective of someone who has been watching the case from the beginning.

I wasn't debating what is or isn't on file with the Court

JMO

 

[sunshineray]

The judge in the Delphi murders hearing has agreed to push the trial back for Richard Allen to October 2024.

https://x.com/WTHRcom/status/1719356192084893749?s=20

Thank you. And... requoted by me:

it ain't over.

(moo)

Did RA's old attorneys already file to disqualify her? Am I correct in my memory of reading that somewhere in the last thread?

 

[Emma Peel]

No not necessarily however is could be a factor.

However I think we should move along with the latest events……D&B are now off the case, formally disqualified. IMO no higher court is going to order that RA’s attorneys be reinstated to represent him probono.

It's a deal.
You watch Gull's Court with her stomping grounds defense team that RA wants nothing to do with, and her clerks that selectively bury the records ...

And I'll watch RA's new Appellate Team.

jmo and a friendly wink

 

[Jade]

That's what I was thinking was in the works, the SC being tapped to review JG's actions in facilitating the withdrawal of RA's attorneys and their filings that came after their withdrawls. But I now understand it to be, that stuff, to only be filed in the lower court? What then are the SC looking into? It's like it's all compartmentalized when it should all be considered together. It's all such a jumble.

Is no court, high or low, at present looking into why the judge considered the D grossly negligent and took the actions she did?

>>>
Attorneys on Allen's behalf filed a motion Monday morning for writs of mandamus and prohibition. The motions were filed with the Indiana Supreme Court, and notes, "This case involves one of the most high-profile matters in Indiana history."

The motion for writs seeks to force Gull to open court filings to public inspection, reinstate Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rozzi as Allen's attorneys and seeks to block her from interfering with Allen's case while the appeal is under way.

Allen is charged with murder. He is accused of killing 14-year-old Libby German and 13-year-old Abby Williams on Feb. 13, 2017 after forcing them off the trails on the north bank of the Deer Creek.
>>
Indiana Supreme Court asked to review decisions in suspected Delphi killer's case


>>
Gull's decision — as well as previous decisions since she signed on as special judge — are now an issue before the Indiana Supreme Court. >>

Accused Delphi killer gets new attorneys; motions to block removal pending

 

[MistyWaters]

I really appreciate your response. It gives me things to mull over.

I suppose for me, I go back to the place that we all started from. That place would be the bridge. RA was there. That is a fact. He described the clothing that he wore that day. Those clothes match the man that walked across the bridge on Libby's video. He said he saw the teenage girls who also saw him walking quickly towards the bridge. They have evidence showing their last photo was taken just before 1:30 PM. RA was walking toward the bridge as they were departing. Another woman spotted him standing on the bridge in the place that he himself confirmed that he stood on.

I know that all of the above is circumstancial evidence. But there is more. I assume there is a lot we don't know.

I agree with you and others that feel like the lack of transparency is problematic and wrong. I don't think that the work that was done early on was perfect, or even really professional.

But I see absolutely no reason for RA to be arrested and charged after 6 years if there is no evidence. Why would they pick a man like RA with no cause? The case was not handled well initially, but I don't believe that the LE is evil or intentionally setting an innocent man.

Let's not forget, he admitted several times that he killed the girls.
JMO

Something I notice that I wonder about is the expectation of transparency in criminal cases in states such as Indiana who does not have a Sunshine Law, like Florida does, for example. It’s a controversial subject often with no perfect balance but it’s the state laws that usually restricts and defines the flow of public information, not the people involved. JMO

 

[FrostedGlass]

New filings

10/31/2023

Document Filed VERIFIED SUPPLEMENTATION OF THE RECORD Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 10/31/2023

10/31/2023

Motion to Withdraw Appearance Filed WITHDRAWAL OF LIMITED APPEARANCE Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 10/31/2023