IN - Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #170

[katydid23]

The accused is presumed innocent, until he is found guilty by a jury of his peers. That his constitutional rights are being violated in such a blatant manner is very concerning. We should all be concerned with this. The world is watching and RA’s attorneys are not the ones looking bad right now. This is JMO.

If that was completely true, that the accused is presumed innocent, we wouldn't put the accused into jail while they await trial. We do that because there is a high possibility they are guilty and are potentially dangerous.

If in fact, his attorneys were incompetent and grossly negligent, the judge would be looking out for the defendant instead of violating his rights. She would be protecting his rights.

From where I sit, after reading that 140 pages of nonsense they filed, and learning about the negligence which allowed the girl's death photos to go to You-tube channels, ending with a tragic suicide---I see this judge as someone trying to pull the plug on an out of control defense team. JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

And guess what happened, after Baldwin got triple murder his defendant out on bond?

Teen suspect in triple murder, previously released on GPS monitoring, arrested again for invasion of privacy

INDIANAPOLIS — A teenager who police say killed two men and a teenager has yet again been arrested after being previously released on GPS monitoring during his triple murder trial. Caden Smith was …

fox59.com

NDIANAPOLIS — A teenager who police say killed two men and a teenager has yet again been arrested after being previously released on GPS monitoring during his triple murder trial.

Caden Smith was arrested once again by the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department on Wednesday after he violated a restraining order and was issued a warrant for his arrest.
Smith had previously been charged with multiple offenses including murder and dangerous possession of a machine gun, connected to the death of three people in October 2021. He was just 16 years old when the incident occurred.

An arrest report shows that Smith allegedly violated a protective no-contact order while out on GPS monitoring, and that when IMPD came to arrest him this week for the violation they uncovered evidence for additional charges.

Inside his southside residence on Thompson Road, police allegedly found drugs, ammo, firearms, gun accessories, magazines and cash. Now 18, Smith currently faces three charges in the incident:



Suspect in triple murder ordered released on GPS monitoring after key evidence suppressed

Yeah I agree, that turned into a disaster even though somehow he initially managed to get the SW tossed.

 

[katydid23]

Yeah I agree, that was a disaster.

What I find interesting is that everyone swears that Baldwin must believe in RA's innocence because of the way he is fighting for him, etc.

But in 2021 he fought just as hard for his 16 yr old client, accused of a triple murder. Even got him released with an ankle bracelet. Not long after, police searched his home after he violated probation---and they found weapons, ammo and drugs in his home again.

He had been arrested initially for possession of the automatic weapon which shot and killed 3 people. Baldwin fought hard to have him released on bond and it kind of backfired. He is now back in jail, no bond allowed.

Maybe it is not a belief in innocence that inspires AB to fight for his clients?

 

[mrjitty]

That is exactly what I think she did today - and ya know what? If he cannot access a speedy trial (which he clearly cannot based on her moving the trial a year out now), then he should be acquitted. How many innocent members here would be fully ok with sitting in jail another year without trial because a cop thought you did it??

I agree this is completely bizarre and kafka

But again, keep in mind that because "reasons" his defence who claimed they would work on a bail hearing for innocent Rick never ended up applying for the hearing. Why was that? Apparently because Rick confessed in jail. Then they decided he was mentally unfit, or was it the Odinists

So his counsel have a big part in that, as does Rick.

 

[mrjitty]

What I find interesting is that everyone swears that Baldwin must believe in RA's innocence because of the way he is fighting for him, etc.

But in 2021 he fought just as hard for his 16 yr old client, accused of a triple murder. Even got him released with an ankle bracelet. Not long after, police searched his home after he violated probation---and they found weapons, ammo and drugs in his home again.

He had been arrested initially for possession of the automatic weapon which shot and killed 3 people. Baldwin fought hard to have him released on bond and it kind of backfired. He is now back in jail, no bond allowed.

Maybe it is not a belief in innocence that inspires AB to fight for his clients?

After McStay and Morphew cases, i am cynical about this.

This is one of the most famous cases in America. A career case. Of course they an eye on their netflix deal.

 

[FrostedGlass]

ETA: This is a civil case = different from attorney ethics cases. Thanks @Emma Peel

Is gross negligence applied equally in different situations? I found the article linked below that discusses a GN case regarding a race track incident. Would a physical injury fall into a different category than what happened with the leak in this case? I'm totally ignorant on the issue so this may not even be relevant.

Here's a snip from the article:

"The trial court noted, however, that the Indiana Supreme Court has said negligence and gross negligence may be different in the context of what constitutes a breach and has defined gross negligence as: “‘A conscious, voluntary act or omission in reckless disregard of . . . the consequences to another party'” (N. Ind. Pub. Serv. Co. v. Sharp (2003)). The trial court went on to say that it would make no determination regarding the existence of gross negligence in Indiana; rather, it would focus on whether Sportsdrome acted in a willful and wanton manner. The appellate court elected to do the same."

Indiana Waiver Law as to Gross Negligence

By Doyice Cotten Indiana law regarding waivers and extreme forms of negligence (gross negligence, reckless conduct, willful/wanton conduct and intentional acts) was addressed in Sportsdrome Speedwa…

www.sportwaiver.com

 

[FrostedGlass]

I hope we see Westerman's affidavit eventually.
If he states in it that Baldwin had no knowledge of the leak, would that still fall under gross negligence on Baldwin's part?

 

[mrjitty]

I hope we see Westerman's affidavit eventually.
If he states in it that Baldwin had no knowledge of the leak, would that still fall under gross negligence on Baldwin's part?

We can't really say without the details

For instance, lets say there is a war room where all the trial materials were spread out/stored etc, and W comes in to the office to meet Baldwin, who then gets called away and leaves W alone in that room for 30 mins ... that could be gross negligence IMO

 

[pseudo_hum]

I hope we see Westerman's affidavit eventually.
If he states in it that Baldwin had no knowledge of the leak, would that still fall under gross negligence on Baldwin's part?

IMO, non-professional opinion, the leak opportunity originated from his office, which is his responsibility. He should have taken any measures necessary to ensure the integrity of the information.

 

[FrostedGlass]

I wonder if this one is available to the public. I may have to start selling aluminum pop cans so I can buy umpteen documents. lol..

10/31/2023

Document Filed VERIFIED SUPPLEMENTATION OF THE RECORD Filed By: Allen, Richard M. File Stamp: 10/31/2023

 

[FrostedGlass]

We can't really say without the details

For instance, lets say there is a war room where all the trial materials were spread out/stored etc, and W comes in to the office to meet Baldwin, who then gets called away and leaves W alone in that room for 30 mins ... that could be gross negligence IMO

But does it fall under this definition?

“‘A conscious, voluntary act or omission in reckless disregard of . . . the consequences to another party'”

Indiana Waiver Law as to Gross Negligence

By Doyice Cotten Indiana law regarding waivers and extreme forms of negligence (gross negligence, reckless conduct, willful/wanton conduct and intentional acts) was addressed in Sportsdrome Speedwa…

www.sportwaiver.com

 

[mrjitty]

But does it fall under this definition?

“‘A conscious, voluntary act or omission in reckless disregard of . . . the consequences to another party'”

Indiana Waiver Law as to Gross Negligence

By Doyice Cotten Indiana law regarding waivers and extreme forms of negligence (gross negligence, reckless conduct, willful/wanton conduct and intentional acts) was addressed in Sportsdrome Speedwa…

www.sportwaiver.com

In my example yes IMO

Negligence is typically about what is objectively foreseeable. To not be culpable, Baldwin would have to have been somehow duped IMO.

At the end of the day W had extensive access to case files, so he must have been somehow left alone with them. If Baldwin knowingly allowed W access to the files, but simply trusted him not to look, that could be gross neglience IMO

 

[Emma Peel]

But does it fall under this definition?

“‘A conscious, voluntary act or omission in reckless disregard of . . . the consequences to another party'”

Indiana Waiver Law as to Gross Negligence

By Doyice Cotten Indiana law regarding waivers and extreme forms of negligence (gross negligence, reckless conduct, willful/wanton conduct and intentional acts) was addressed in Sportsdrome Speedwa…

www.sportwaiver.com

You might try looking for information under Indiana attorney ethics (gross negligence).

(It looks like you're pulling examples discussing indiana civil gross negligence ... not the same as professional ethics issues.)

Hope that makes sense.

The high likeliness of the negligence causing serious damage to the client's case ... is one measure.

 

[FrostedGlass]

You might try looking for information under Indiana attorney ethics (gross negligence).

(It looks like you're pulling examples discussing indiana civil gross negligence ... not the same as professional ethics issues.)

Hope that makes sense.

The high likeliness of the negligence causing serious damage to the client's case ... is one measure.

Thanks; that makes sense. I just came across that article and didn't know if it was applicable to this case or not.

Is there just negligence and gross negligence?

 

[MistyWaters]

After McStay and Morphew cases, i am cynical about this.

This is one of the most famous cases in America. A career case. Of course they an eye on their netflix deal.

Definitely.

Reading this leaves me feeling very sad for the families of Libby and Abby, how their murders has become an opportunity to show off for others

Judge confirms defense attorney dismissals in Delphi double murder case

CARROLL COUNTY, Ind. — The latest hearing in the case against accused killer Richard Allen was due to start at 9 a.m. in the third-floor courtroom of Carroll Circuit Court in Delphi today. Al…

fox59.com

“Today’s hearing was to introduce Allen to his new defense team and set a new date for his trial next year.

Allen’s original defense team had other ideas.

At 8:59 a.m., the back door of the courtroom banged open and Bradley Rozzi and Andrew Baldwin strode quickly with purpose to the defense table before the bench and took over the space, setting their briefcases on the wooden tabletop, sitting down to face their opponent prosecutor and await the judge who objected to their continued presence in her courtroom and the new attorneys who would replace them by Richard Allen’s side.

And there they sat as the minutes ticked by before packed rows of media, spectators, law enforcement officers and the families of the two girls.

Rozzi and Baldwin both stopped to acknowledge Allen’s wife and mother seated closest to the courtroom door to the public hallway near the media as Baldwin assured the women, “The whole world is watching.”

Within minutes, Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland left the courtroom only to reappear and confer with a sheriff’s deputy standing by in tactical gear as he pointed in the direction of the defense team before stepping outside again……..”(continued at link)

 

[MistyWaters]

More from link above…..lies (= not entirely true)
BBM
“We didn’t act with gross negligence,” said Rozzi. “We’re just on a different page.”

Judge Gull turned to the prosecutor for his take on the defense team’s attempt to stay on board.

“I’m at a loss,” said McLeland who insisted Baldwin and Rozzi were indeed, “grossly negligent,” and then proceeded to list several alleged defense transgressions including two separate leaks of evidence, an aggressive statement arguing their client’s innocence, “lies” in the form of a motion to dismiss the search warrant used to search Allen’s house for incriminating evidence in the fall of last year and espousing a theory that cult worshippers may have played a role in the deaths of the girls.

“They are trying to push this in the media and try this in the public eye,” asserted McLeland, repeating the “gross negligence” allegation.

Then it was time for the judge to address the man accused of the murders.

“Mr. Allen, I understand you want them (Baldwin and Rozzi), but I have grave concerns,” she said. “I know what you want but cannot and will not allow them to represent you. I cannot allow that.”

The judge reiterated her determination of “gross negligence on behalf of the original defense team” and told Allen that Lobrato and Scremin would now defend him.….”

 

[Emma Peel]

Thanks; that makes sense. I just came across that article and didn't know if it was applicable to this case or not.

Is there just negligence and gross negligence?

yes, there's a distinction. it's about the level of harm.

 

[FrostedGlass]

yes, there's a distinction. it's about the level of harm.

Thanks.
I went back and edited my original post as to not confuse the issues.

 

[sunshineray]

JMO if B&D want the supreme court to review the situation involving the ex-D‘s dismissal, I think the filing is going to have to come directly from both of them or their appointed counsel. This recent SC motion was filed by three civil attorneys reportedly representing RA, who cannot possibly become the spokesperson for his prior attorneys.

JMO

No but in their capacity for RA they have to be inquiring as to why his attorneys of choice were withdrawn, no? Somebody has to ask for the reason(s) in all this mess about his attorneys or are the actual reasons going to be pussyfooted around and only contested procedures will be examined? Why doesn't the courts seem to want to go to the heart of this mess? It's like a big run around the root cause of what happened and was the judge correct in her actions?

 

[MistyWaters]

I wouldn’t be surprised if a complaint has been filed with the Indiana Bar Association on both R&B, as my understanding is truthfulness is a nonnegotiable to the profession. This would be the simplest way to convince RA why his preferred counsel can’t represent him.

If so, would the complaint be published, anybody know?